So sad if its true!

@Modesh: It is indeed a ULR flight as it meets the requirement for the same. As such the FDP tables do not apply but the max FDP is 22 hrs. And unfortunately a ULR flight doesn't have to be planned with 4 crew. Reference OM-A Ch 7, annex 7.C.1 (g) and (h). For a flight with a FLIGHT time under 15 hrs 3 pilots are allowed.

@lospilots: As previously stated EK F/O's receive some training in the left seat in order to qualify them to operate from that seat during augment ops although the OM-D doesn't seem to actually mention that as a requirement. The OM-D only states that one must demonstrate practice of drills and procedures which would have been the commanders responsibility and if these differences are not significantly different between the seats then this can be demonstrated in either seat (OM-D 2.1.3.6).

@Schnowzer: Incorrect actually. A commander who is required to operate from the right hand seat has to be trained accordingly. Reference OM-A 5.2.12 and OM-D 2.1.3.6.1 And this training actually has to be done from the RHS.

So unfortunately its all legal! I guess the other question is: Is it smart? Well...:ugh::cool:

/Will

As a CPT are you not checked in the RHS at the end of every annual LPC?

ULR must be planned 4 crew
 

Dear Will rogers

I think you may be confusing planned and on the day operations.

All ULRs must be planned 4 crew.

However on the day it may operate 3 crew if one crew member is sick and ...

1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.

Ta M

In summer they usea shorter overall sector lenght and it changes from ULR to SLR and crew can be reduced to 3. Max duty @15 hrs can't be bothered to check but I'm sure some of the FAA space boys will.

No such thing as SLR any more.

SLR Was used on JFK on A340 long time ago but not in any manual now.

All are ULR and all ULR must be planned 4 crew.

Dear Modesh,

Actually no. I'm aware of what you're referring to but that's part of the "contingency provisions" (OM-A 7.C.7) where, once more, the max flt time is limited to 15 hrs.

I was referring to OM-A 7.C.1 (g) where it states that for any ULR flight a 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled FLIGHT time in excess of 15 hours. Which of course means that for a scheduled flight time of less then 15 hours it is permitted. Law is a wonderful thing to interpret...

That said I agree with you that section (h) of the same paragraph makes it all a bit confusing. The problem here I believe is the lack of the words "must" or "shall" in the OM-A. The only word used is "normally" which doesn't really mean anything.

Don't get me wrong here. I think this is all nuts but I'm just saying that it's actually probably legal subject to a revised ULR operational plan for the pairing in question. Unfortunately!

I stand by to be corrected but I would love a reference if you don't mind.

Cheers,

Will

Well as a EK FO that trained on type a couple of years ago I can tell you I never received LHS training. It was in fact in the syllabus, but was skipped with the words "it's not a requirement anymore"

"It's not a requirement anymore"......along with the comprehensive EFB training I'm sure we all received. Still, forcefully removing the paper charts in the sim at least abdicates the responsibility from them and places it firmly at our feet as we muddle through those wonderfully intuitive computers, from whichever seat we're sat in!

Excellence in training? Really? I don't think so but don't let those at the top stop convincing themselves otherwise. I read it in the latest SAFA so I guess it must be true!

Harry

Regarding seat qualification, there is no need to be qualified in the seat if you are augmenting and acting as PM.

OMA 8.3.10.2.2.......look for paragraph C.

All shall be revealed, but of course all the book experts here knew that already right?

I'm guessing these are 2am pickups from home (little or no sleep), 24 hour layover with little/no sleep in the 12-16 hours preceding return pick up time, and landing red eye after 10 hour night flight to base. That is far more tiering than a night charter flight in Europe I would say.

Took me close 6 months to get fully back into a normal sleep cycle after my last stint at e/w long haul. I could sleep off a night "there and back" charter within a day or so.

Left seat training for emergency descent, tcas and engine failure in the cruise was once a requirement for FO's but the sim time ultimately could not be justified, you act as PM when in the LHS. The risk of decompression etc when the right seat pilot leaves the cockpit for a leak was considered too small to justify the training. Have to agree.

So how does the OM A get approved if the above is correct?

So when the CAAP says cabin crew shall get 3 1/2 hours rest on any ULR flight does that mean all of our ULRs are illegal?
On the A-380 the FAs are lucky to get 2 1/2 hours of rest. Shocking!

Emphasis on "ULR"
 

Those rules only apply if you operate a defined "ULR" flight, which one could argue that we don't (with the exception being LAX perhaps).

From CAAP 14:

6.2 Definitions

6.2.1 Ultra Long Range Operation (ULR)
An operation involving any sector between a specific City Pairing (Point A- Point B-Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 16 hours at any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Note: A ULR operation applies to both sectors of a city pair.

If that is the case then why do we have to be acclimatized for SYD, MEL, JFK...???

Because EK's OM-A defines ULR as >14 hours...

Standby for ULR?

SBU, SBU 1 or 2 :ok:

Hi Will,

The statement OM-A 7.C.1 (g)

This simply backs up the statement in the contingency provisions. It is not for planning.

No authority in the world would allow a planned duty of up to 22Hrs with three crew on a regular (normal) basis. (All be it with the restriction of initial flight time<15Hrs)

Sure 3 crew ULR's are allowed in order to get the aircraft back from an outstation if there is late sickness. This is a non-normal situation which is not planned and hence they have the contingency provisions..

1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.

Thoughts??
M

Sorry if i might seem quite basic but if we are kegal to fly three crew we just do it.
Are we into discretion after 15' delay?????
Again, quite basic....we simply dont go into discretion..... Is that complicated????

3 man ULR Fix
 

EK tried the 3 man crew about 7-8 years ago. There is only 15-20 minutes of time at the gate before you are out of time. Best one I heard on the freq. one morning was from the Captain of 201 who called ops and told them either send the crew bus for the pilots to go home, or a fourth pilot; the 4 th guy miraculously appeared in short order............

FF,

My understanding of ULR rules is that there is no such thing as discretion. You can do up to 22hrs. No mention of discretion in the ULR OP Plan.

If you divert and decide not to continue with the next sector because you are too tired and it's not safe, then so be it.

The whole point they changed from SLR (a340 days (3 crew JFK)) to ULR (4 crew) is for "OPS FLEX".

Too many crews running out of hours with diversions and with tech issue ex dxb.

It means we need to be planned with 4 crew but we can do 22hrs generally without question.

This is also why I understand a ULR's cannot "normally" be planned with 3 crew.

For info:- Under normal FTL's (Not ULR rules) 3 Crew can do 16:15 duty going to BOS.

Now once a city pairing is defined as a ULR it remains a ULR the whole year so it can not be rostered 4 crew ULR winter and 3 crew non-ULR summer. (See CAAP 14 City Pair)

Currently all USA flights are defined as ULR's in EK bid package.

thoughts?

M

Modesh,
your explanation is very clear and logic!
I hope that it is understood in the same way by our manager......
FF

It's not 3 man ULR, it's just 3 man flt and an amendment to to ops plan . Don't go into discretion .

Dear Fatbus,

If you are talking about BOS. Just do a roster search for BOS.
At the end of the Trip Details it says ULR.
So under the city pairs rule it must be ULR in summer too...no?

M

According to B777 CP at todays wash-up, BOS is 3 man for summer and reverts to 4 man for winter sched.

Strange as the block DXB-BOS

MAR (4 crew) = 13:30
APR (4 crew) = 13:30

And in MAY (3 Crew) the block is.....13:30

Anybody see any differences that i'm missing?

For info BOS-DXB is 5 mins less in MAY?

??
M

It's not really a ULR, able to down grade to 3 guys any time , I think YYZ,201 and maybe IAD are the same. Don't go into discretion .

So if the above is the case, can we expect not to see SBU on any of these flights? I mean, they're saying it's not a ULR. From my weak mind, doesn't SBU stand for Standby ULR? Just asking.

Would you also then not need to be acclimatized prior to a US flight with 3 pilots? Correct me if I'm wrong, but augmenting ops do not require the three local nights prior to undertaking duty. A three man crew can still be unacclimatized assuming the extension is sufficient for the FDP to complete the flight.

Can I now come straight off of leave and hop into a cockpit with only 3 guys and cross the Atlantic without the current provision to in DXB for three days prior to a US trip?

I just want to make sure I have this clear... So we remove a pilot from the cockpit, reduce the amount of days off required before and after the flight, then go flying over the North Atlantic for 13h30m. :eek:

I'm baffled by the gaping hole in the Swiss cheese this could create.

"Visionary" leadership indeed:mad:

Keep Rowing!!!

In that case:

No discretion
ASR
CSR
FSDO

In that order.

Good news is no chance of bumps & no sleep during the skippers rest...right?

f.

I agree with you Fuse....that was the first thing that occurred to me regarding this pattern too...the rest req before.

It only means that you are standby to to another flight that might be an ULR, you are acclamatized and all that... It's "Standby for ULR" not "Standby before ULR".

for EK'ers:

Annex 7.C.1 - ULR Operational Plan

para a; A pairing is categorised as an Ultra Long Range (ULR) Operation when the scheduled flight time could exceed 14 hours taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.

IMHO JFK/IAD are ULR. Probably BOS as well. Makes sense for the company as the FDP is longer.

para g; A 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled Flight Time in excess of 15 hours.

IMHO, a 3 man ULR crew is legal from the UAE to the North Eastern USA.

Based on para g, it can be argued that a 3 man crew would/should have an FDP limit of 16 hours.

Doing the maths, EK201 in May has a Westbound block of 13:45. 1 hour pre-flight start of duty means a rostered FDP of 14:45. Therefore, any delay of more than 1:15 takes you over the 16 hours FDP.

However, 7.15; A Commander may exercise his discretion to extend an FDP…. this may be up to 3 hours prior to the start of a single sector flight…

Therefore, it could be argued you can do upto 19 hours FDP.


Additionally; 7.C.7 Contingency Provisions - Operational disruption

7.C.7 - c.2 Refers to return operations to DXB but the company acknowledges there is an increased workload with 3 crew.

7.C.7 - c.3 Again refers to return operations - Dispatch is not permitted with an aircraft system unserviceability that would require a higher than normal workload on behalf of the remaining flight crew during approach and landing. Be careful what you take down route.

7.C.7 - c.4 Return operations - Any flight dispatched with only 3 flight crew shall be limited to a maximum Flight Time of 15 hours :hmm:


I'm not advocating any particular action. Just thought the above may be of interest. Take care out there!

Dear HD,

I can see how you came up with that however please consider this...

At no point does it say a normal crew is 3.

The g statement backs up and repeats the contingency provision rule.

There is no discretion on ULR's, its up to 22hrs duty.

So if as you say, a 3 crew ULR can be planned then FDP for 3 crew ULR is still 22hrs! (With the initial flt planned at <15hrs) Is any authority really going to allow a planned FDP of up to 22hrs for 3 crew???

JFK and IAD are ULR's as defined by EK as block is >14hrs during the year.

As Fatbus says BOS is not by EK definition a ULR, however is it being operated as a ULR currently. See trip info.

If they are to operate BOS as a 3 crew it should be under normal FTL's for all year. City pair rules.

They can't say the flight time is less in the summer as the block as published is the same for APR and MAY.

APR (4 crew) 13:30 and MAY (3 Crew) 13:30

M

Mostly all agreed, my post was just MHO and interpretation.

para G clearly, IMHO, states that a 3 man crew can operate a ULR flight which by definition would be planned between 14-15 hours flight time.

Para G is in the ULR Operational Plan, not the Contingency section. The same wording in the contingency section simply backs up the "normal" and limits the contingency operation, i.e. you still can't do more that 15 hours in a contingency situation.

Whichever way you choose to read it, I won't be doing any 22 hour FDPs with 3 crew, probably not with 4! Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's safe.

FTL's are designed to stop fatigue onset. Tiredness starts when one reports for duty.

Ironically, EK plans on a report time of 60 minutes prior to STD. But what actually happens is pilots report between 90 and 100 minutes prior to STD.

So if one reports at the aircraft less than 60 minutes, then he/she must answer to his manager as to why he is late!! Doesn't make sense.

Most EK flights are into discretion from the beginning.

A three man crew operation is not workable, particularly when operating from a crowded airport with frequent departure delays.

Ensure your bacon is well covered before accepting such flights!!!

From CAAP 14.

My understanding of CAAP is that EK can be more conservative but not less.

Eg. CAAP defines ULR>16hr flt time and Ek defines ULR>14.

However CAAP also says down route rest must be 48hrs and cabin crew must have 3.5 hrs rest!!!

New Kid in town
 

What we are witnessing here is classic corporate politics of the expatriate kind. BM (Manager Regulatory Affairs) retired earlier in the year and we now have a new kid on the block who is trying to make his mark and ingratiate himself to his superiors by finding loopholes in the CARS. If he can show that it saves money he will be on a fast track to SVP.

BM had been around for years and seen it all tried before. Last time the three crew thing was tried it was a disaster and there was only JFK to think about. At that time The Chief Pilot Airbus, who was new to the job, and trying to impress instructed the dispatchers to make all flight plans for JFK indicate a departure from 30R and arrival JFK 22L to make the flight times appear shorter regardless of prevailing conditions.

This whole plan will look great on paper but will become an an unmitigated disaster when put into practice with our average on time performance being around 70% within 15 minutes of scheduled OBT even without a runway closure.

To EK Pilots I say be very clear on your understanding of the FDP limitations regarding ULR and apply them intelligently.

In a recent edition of SAFA, wasn't JFK the only destination never to have departed on time?

I agree with Gulf News, new kid trying to impress. It's not his licence on the block when everything goes pear shaped! May I suggest for those rostered these 3 man ULR's a very close look at the rules and regulations followed by an email to those concerned. Don't just sit back in the hope someone else will fight your battle.

Harry