LongLander, true it's the Capt's responsibility but the thing I find annoying is that presumably it's always been the case (OM-A has been around longer than this fairly recent 'policy') so now they get on it because of one or two people who couldn't manage themselves well enough to have their documents- probably the same ones who shouldn't be allowed out unsupervised ;) The thing is there are much more important things they should be using their time on, but we know they love to be reactive rather than proactive. Plenty of other issues that get brought to their attention that could use the effort but go untended....

Actually "cling-ons" generally refers to anyone not directly employed by the company who uses a staff benefit... and I've noticed it from all types not just wives/girlfriends/husbands.... the point is I actually can put up with the "difficult" pax more... why you ask? Because unlike most cling-ons the majority have actually paid a full fare for a ticket. And staff should know better. You're right I do check the PIL for staff- not to pick on them- but because I like to know where they are in case I might need them or for service recovery for a full fare pax eg IFE not working.

You'd be amazed at how many people on ID90 get snotty at being asked to switch seats. Sorry but if you pay 10% of a fare then you move for the full fare pax. Staff can have an unbelievably entitled attitude sometimes- and not just 'Gen Y'. (Of course this would not apply to those who paid confirmed or ALT) On my travels I have never refused a request to move- even when the crew wrongly did it on an ALT... because I know that by doing so perhaps we'll retain the customer who would otherwise have taken their money elsewhere...

And sadly it often goes the other way too- some family members (but for some reason esp the women) go out of their way to make the flight hell for the female crew. Funny, they never seem to do it to the guys.... Anyway. I suspect the crappy behaviour of some staff travellers is something that will never change because the airline do not seem to punish anyone for it when it's reported (and it would need to be pretty extreme to report it) I just can't wait til some of them try their antics on QF, they're in for a rude shock that's for sure! :}

I agree with Michael- it's nice to have the backup of the Skipper esp when the Purser is getting up you for "taking too long" with security checks. Out of DXB they should be relatively simple but if catering load the carts without seals the crew are required to physically check each one. Get lumped with a large galley and no seals and doing it by the book can take upwards of the allotted 15min max. I've actually advised I needed more time due to various reasons only to find the Pur has let them auto board anyway. Good thing I never found anything in the last couple of areas to be searched (yes I submitted a conf safety report) So yes sometimes it does make a difference if you are keeping an eye on things in back....

Anyway back to 'First Wave'- anyone noticed an increase in offloading of baggage for late pax? Coz we all know that's probably the biggest reason for flights leaving late- failure to enforce the boarding cutoff times.

Longlander

Quick comment regarding you view on the Captain's involvement with cabin crew. While I agree that micro management should not be encouraged, I also take the view that as Captain, you take responsibility for everything that takes place under your watch. We have to delegate and we have to place trust in those that we delegate too. The importance therefore of that initial 3 minute briefing can never be underestimated. There is an increasing number of guys who feel their job stops at the armoured flight deck door and this impression is made during the brief.

I am one of 'those' that support the crew in the process of security checks as I've seen all too often checks being rushed and completed to a substandard due to pressure from 'scared' pursers who are badgered by ground staff who themselves are put under pressure. Guess where it all starts? Stupid initiatives such as 'FIRST WAVE'! Every year is it mentioned during our recurrent training about items being left undiscovered on board for multiple sectors. If numerous crew are failing to complete checks properly, this is a systemic problem. That doesn't mean we can't take ownership of it if the threat is a known one. in fact, I would consider it negligent for NOT acting on it. Locking ourselves behind the door with the attitude of 'not my aisle pal' is hardly the behaviour of a person in full authority.

There are many ways we can achieve a safe and efficient operation and I'm sure you've been here long enough to know which of those ideas are effective and which aren't. However, to lay responsibility at their door only and not accept some form of of involvement yourself is hardly command material.

Playing the role of Captain is easy. Being a Commander is more difficult and takes effort. I like to put the effort in as I find the benefits more rewarding.
;)


ps You comment about British Captains having fat wives is a complete generalisation and one I find offensive. Please remove it or I will be forced to put my wife on a strict diet with immediate effect! :O

Ms. Wings, it's great that you are still somehow a believer but please don't be too hasty to put all pax ahead of all staff at any cost. The staff (like us) are the ones flying max hours, day and night, being shafted like the crew just were with the new pay structures, no Cher despite massive profit, etc etc.

They may've only paid 90% OF THE FULL RACK RATE FARE, PLUS TAXES, but they might also have just spent a few extra unplanned days on "vacation" courtesy of full loads and their sub-load fare status. The down side of staff travel.

Add to that the long haul more than 50% of us endure just to get home to N. America, S. America, NZ and Australia and I'd say you could maybe go a little more easy on them, don't you? Maybe even ignore them when some big mouth from you-know-which subcontinent is loudly complaining about the IFE. But give the jumeirah janes hell... :ok:

Yes they might feel entitled however regardless of the fare, they DID pay for a seat... and a meal which is often not supplied, and an IFE which crew might deny them for someone else, and a safe flight. We need to look after each other because no one else is going to.

Offloads?? They tried this a few years ago and it lasted a week before habibis turned up late, were told they were offloaded and then had the ground staff sacked after complaining to their cousins, etc.


This Wave is nothing more than willy-waving to show those up higher that "something is being done" and secure this year's bonus. They don't expect you to take it seriously! Can't believe anyone's even discussing it. You won't even hear reference to it in another couple of months.


edit:
PS" BYMONEK I completely agree.

And regarding the fat wives - they're a fat juicy target, I couldn't help, myself!

LL, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about "all pax" ahead of staff. I do look after my fellow crew (flight and cabin) I was mainly referring to those times when the poor (nice) customer has had the same thing happen on multiple flights and there is no other option but to ask someone to switch. It's my last resort and not something I always do. If the passenger is being abusive or otherwise crossing the line I prefer not to ask a staff pax to switch (just rewards bad behaviour, imho)

I get that staff are mostly on their vacation time... I usually am too... ;) But on the few occasions where I've had a serious IFE breakdown, and asked a staff member if they would kindly switch, the attitude I've copped has been ridiculous. (And no the seats themselves were not broken, it was the tv- and I always try to ask someone who is clearly NOT watching their tv to change) I might add it has never been the staff member themselves, usually the cling on. This points to a lack of 'education' by the staff member to their travelling beneficiaries. I bet if some of you knew what they got up to you would be appalled.... :E

BymonEK, I agree, all this "on time" stuff doesn't help when it comes to getting crew to do things like security checks. I often feel like the lone salmon swimming upstream when it comes to stuff like this. But I guess at the end of the day all I can do is make sure I do my bit properly and encourage the others to do the same... though it seems not much point if half of them are not... A better option would be to have security contractors to do the search like in certain outstations but we all know why that is not possible.

Agree- management need to put their foot down on this "wasta" stuff and perhaps the top few need to have a word with their influential friends as to why sacking people for doing their jobs as required is not a good idea.... you can't have both.... either wasta or On Time Departures. I think some of these latecomers would get a shock in certain parts of the world, in fact I have witnessed the tantrums when they have been offloaded and thought good, perhaps they will think about others for a change instead of expecting a planeload of people to wait on their leisure... if you are that important get a private jet... some of the wealthiest most 'important' people who fly on ME airlines manage to be on time, why not others??

Diversion already, this post has gone way off the rails
 

Wasn't the thread about the First Wave. It seems to have transgressed sometwatt.

Capt Groper

I'm not so sure it's as much of a forum transgression as you might think....even if I'm considered 'some twatt'! ;)

'First Wave' is an initiative set up to improve the on time departure of our morning flights in the hope that if these are on time, we're less likely to incur reactive delays throughout the day. Whilst the principle is fine, the execution is not.

Firstly, with so many flights departing around the same time there is simply not enough space at DXB to allow multiple pushes. DXB, I hate to say, is hardly the best designed airport around, despite the glossy media images. Most of these morning delays are due to ATC congestion, either airport or route and it will only get worse! Secondly, no flight crew or cabin crew wants to make their day longer than it needs to be so our incentive for an early departure is a given. Rarely is the delay due to flight or cabin crew anyway. The problem arises when other departments such as Engineering, dispatchers, gate agents, check in staff etc want to push for on time, mainly to ensure that a delay code is not attributable to them. This harassment, subtle or otherwise, impacts on us. Cabin crew rush their checks, accept excess hand luggage or perhaps a drunk passenger all because others are rushing them and don't want to take ownership of the problem. Once that door is closed, the problem becomes ours to deal with. Do the majority of our cabin crew have the experience, maturity and confidence to say stop or slow down? Are they confident that their 'approachable' manager will support them in that decision? Twice recently I've had pursers tell me that a request has come through on KIS to explain why they left the briefing room 1 minute late or why the bus left 1 minute late. I'm not making this up. Next time you fly, ask the crew and see what pressure these guys are under. We've all seen the standard and experience levels of the new cabin crew and how it compares to the majors out there so you decide if these policies impact on our operation. Finally, how many times has a tech log item been prematurely signed off by the engineer only for the delegated technician fail to complete. At least 3 times in my last year alone. Two were insignificant, but the process is flawed. The holes are there and next time the outcome may be more serious. ASR's may help but guess who gets the direct blame! I don't need the engineer to change, I need the system to.

As pilots we're trained and constantly reminded on recurrent courses about the threat of distractions and how to manage them. Yet you only need to see how hung up most guys are about briefing the crew on time. Sod the important stuff or something new you might miss in the 5 pages of Mumbai Notams, just make sure we start the cabin crew brief at STD-83.

This incentive is not designed for us. It's designed for the people who get the 'customers' to us. If the Company was that concerned, I'm sure we'd be given the legally correct reporting time for the time we're expecting to start work. As they don't deem it necessary, then neither do I. As STD -83 approaches (23 minutes before official report time), who cares? I go when we're ready, not when an unofficial piece of paper tells me too. I just wish more of us did the same. The choice is still there to brief either the cabin crew or your colleague on the bus just so long as you remember to check your docs before you leave EGHQ.

'First Wave' will not be an acceptable excuse stood in front of the safety review board after missing that vital but well hidden notam, MEL or suspicious package regardless that the aircraft departed on time. It needs to arrive on time too....and in one piece!

Hurry up and fly safe guys and gals! :E

When preparing for a 'First Wave Departure' I like to save time, so no T shirts for me.... I choose the all new silicon "Nipple Suppressor" from Pilot Essentials. Available in two natural shades to match all body tones, the Nipple Suppressor will keep you safe from those embarrassing moments when @pilotday stares at your chest. No more pencil erasers poking from my shirts.....Thank you Pilot Essentials...you're the man....:ok:

Thanks for your tremendously patronising comments. Just to be sure, I checked my contract and what it says is that I am required to work reasonable additional hours as the company may direct.
To me, that doesn't seem an unreasonable set of requirements. This is a professional job, it requires study and dedication. If you want to be paid flying pay for every hour you put into it, I think it is you who needs to seek professional help old bean, because it ain't happening in this or any other airline. If you want to be paid like you work in McDonalds, then I'm sure it could be arranged. I would be careful what you wish for, personally.

never expected so much backlash from the t-shirt recommendation, lol

Then show those things to the world, be proud, give the cabin crew something to snicker about, its a long flight. Might as well draw a penis on your forehead, it would be less obvious.

enough snark for today

bye bye

Great. I can see the new online learning courses now. " RNP: reducing nipple popping"; "MNPS: male nipple popping syndrome"; "NATS: nipple appreciation and teasing suggestions".

The don

FANS - False Appreciation of Nipple See-through

Also, with regard to generational issues, We have Gen Y Captains at this airline who do their job as required and just as well as anyone else no matter the age. Lets leave stereotypes out of the aircraft and assume, if only for just a moment, that everyone is apt, proficient, and safe regardless of generation when it comes to the operation of EK aircraft.

To BYMOEK
 

I agree entirely, my comment was after reading givemewings obsevations of female ID travellers' interpersonal behaviour. Thats where my spelling error occured. Pronunciation can go two ways and the sounding may have only a geographical understanding.

To Caynine
 

You've got it! All the points everyone complains about are being tackled here. Only if everyone actually tried to be Ready to Go!!

The only other sensible Pilots, on the subject are Harry the Cod and Capt Groper.

The others can complain a little less and try being professional for once.

Has any one bothered to check the OTP since the First Wave implementation? Regularly meeting targets except the RtG which is largely up to the crew!!:D

Ludwig my friend, not a great first post. I think that you are delusional. RTG means all doors closed. It is a regular occurrence to have the cabin doors closed with cargo/bags still being loaded. The closure of cargo and bulk doors is beyond the control of the FD crew. When the dispatcher comes to collect the final paperwork from the cockpit and asks if the cabin doors can be closed he is always asked how long will it take close the lower doors. The answer is always 5 minutes Captain, almost scripted. If I had a hundred dirhams for every "5" minutes I have spent waiting for the cargo doors to close I would have been able to retire years ago.

There is not one flight crew member that I know who would deliberately delay door closure unless there was a very good reason. RTG can and is often not met because we are waiting for missing passengers, technical issues or seating problems which once again is beyond the control of the crew.

I concede that there has been a significant improvement since the recent focus however laying the blame on the crew for not meeting RTG targets is simplistic and naive however symptomatic of an EK managers view of the operation. You wouldn't happen to be one would you ? If so can I suggest a bit more time closer to the coal face.

Ludwig t M

Thanks for the endorsement but to be honest, I'm not a great fan of rushing crew either. I do accept that some in the left seat are either incapable or unwilling to use some basic common sense but campaigns such as can have a detrimental effect at times. Here's my example;

Recent flight, 5 pax down, 15 minutes before STD. Despatcher says they'll start looking for bags but will accept pax if they turn up as bags in different containers and may take time. I agree. While we wait, F/O tells me last Captain had similar situation but insisted on doors being closed at STD-3 as he didn't want delay down to him?!! :ugh: Obviously the option of loading late pax if they show now gone. Delay was 15 minutes in the end looking for offload bags. Not sure if they ever did turn up but may have been a poor decision if they had.

Fast forward to us and 4 of the 5 turn up. Immigration was the issue and the party of 4 passengers were majorly grateful for us still accepting them. Luckily, the 1st bag actually found was of the 5th person who never turned up so we pushed 10 minutes late after small ATC delay.

I know that 5 minutes difference between the two is neither here nor there and that the timing could have gone either way but the actual decision of the other Captain concerned me. His thought process was based on 'rules' and, dare I say it, fear? It's this perceived time pressure that makes some of our less experienced, or perhaps more paranoid Captains blindly follow the 'recommendations' regardless of what may be the better outcome.

So, 'First Wave' and Company pressure or weak Captains unable to use their resilience and airmanship...or maybe a combination of the two. You decide!

Harry