Lufthansa and Emirates ......
 

It's ok for Emirates to buy 90+ A380s. After all this creates jobs and revenue for the EU and especially Germany (same applies to B777 part-manufacturing in Canada).

But then they refuse Emirates to use these machines on their soil. They argument that this might cost some jobs!

Back home the more sophisticated called such behavior hypocritical, the others simply cheap.
But I guess it's like Russel Peters said, with a nice head-wobble: 'They pronounce it cheap, but they mean smart' ......

Yup, there is an argument. Because they buy planes they should have free reign and do whatever business they like in Germany!!??

This coming from a country that is part of an oil cartel that artificially sets oil prices!!!!! Would it be fair then for Germany to say that they will allow full access IF they can buy oil at $25 barrel?? After all they are buying oil from the cartel and have been for FAR longer than EK has been around!

Landing rights are negotiated at national level ie Abu Dhabi, the capital of the UAE. And the UAE has plenty of oil (7-8% of world reserve).

Understand where your coming from pool. But think of it this way: If you want to start a taxi company, and the first thing you do is buy a fleet of cars before you have built any roads to drive on, or an even more direct comparison: the place where your proposed customer base is in a location owned by your competitor, that happens to have a taxi company already, who is at fault if you don't get any business?

As the vehicle seller, who am I to say what you will do with the taxi's? Not my business. You may have wanted to drive on my neighbors streets, but then you may well have though about negotiating that before buying all the cars. Or maybe try to wrap it into the deal for the cars.

Food for thought. Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it.

@Kijangnim
 

Better correct this part from Wikipedia so the rest of the world is par with your knowledge...
But you might also want to correct the guys at Reuters who just issued this:
:E

Trader and Bananas:

Nobody implies that buying an Airbus entitles you to fly to Europe. Just as little as buying oil entitles you to fly into any OPEC country. Trade means you buy what you do not have and sell what you have. Since the early trading days there has always been some equilibrium between partners, not absolute numbers, but some balance, or one of the trade partners reacted. Today one of the most mentioned values is trade deficit or surplus, which is a huge reactive factor.

It takes little to detect how big the trade surplus is from the EU or Germany, or from Canada for instance. It also takes takes little economical basics to understand how much the Emirates orders of 380 and 350 aircraft means to Airbus and Europe.

The UAE can offer oil and airlift, the West the technology and equipment. To a certain extent one partner can certainly choose what to buy and to sell. But no western country would sell the ME oil rigging equipment without wanting a piece of the pumped oil. Just remember the rhetoric of 1973 when they initiated the oil embargo: "They buy our technology to pump oil but refuse to give us some. How utterly hypocritical!" Very true, as it was not balanced trade but political armwrestling. As today in a reciprocal way.

I do not like the moronic behavior of the ME spoilt elite. But I'm all for fair trade, something the West normally so fervently defends ..... at least as long as it serves them we realize now.

fair trade??
 

EK= de facto state owned and state sponsored airline.
No enforced employee or consumer protection laws or anti trust regulations...no unions...based on working conditions for most of the employees that amounts to slavery...etc. etc. :D
Fair trade my a$$ !!! :ooh:

Agree pool. So the hard part is to find that balance. And I would think that always, two parties disagree on where the fair balance lies.

Tell me this. Do you believe that the UAE flies a lot, or a little to Europe? Also, do you believe their current flights are enough to serve the UAE community or are a great portion of the flights serving though traffic? Because if so, that is a contentious issue with many players at the table trying to share. And many just don't have the tools that the UAE has to compete fairly(ie:shubilsky), so they are using "other" tools, like a negative "Emirates" pr spin.

Point is, the AC orders are pure indulgent hubris expecting more than entitled through balanced fair growth and trade as you so suggest.

Dubai never had oil????!!!!!
 

Kijangnim,

Do you mean olive oil?

TRADER
 

Why Air France,Lufthansa KLM AIr Canada fight against EK?because instead of beeing inovative and bring a good product to their passengers and trying to MAKE money,they try to SAVE money.
AF is a champion to annoy passengers(in any kind of idea) and loose them!but who cares?if they go bankrupt(like in 1998 or so,17billion Euros debts)the government will pay.

Desertbananas

You hit on a basic difference of interpretation whereon the politicians and press masterfully play the fiddle:
The EU and Canada look at airlift as a solitary entity of trade. Thus they pretend that the UAE has enough capacity to serve its country.
The UAE looks at airlift as a trade contained in the whole trade complement and therefore do not count flight/passenger numbers, but the total trade volume.
So it all comes down to which point of view you share.

As for the unfair (slavery) advantage of the ME. This is so true, but applies to many trades in many developing countries. The West still buys Chinese goods, don't they? What about their laws, labor and human rights conditions? If you go down that road, go down the whole way.

On the other hand, I agree to a certain extent with the unfair advantage argument. This would be the card I would play, not the protectionist one:
- Why not try to level the fields with i.e.more audits, spot checks etc.? A thorough audit of EK, EY and especially the GCAA would spread panic around here and reveal a lot of such unfair practices (but again, you would have to accept more transparency at home as well and, believe me, there is a lot of similar mud hidden there, so it will not happen).
- Some spot checks of logbooks of passing crew would reveal some fatigue related issues, if you apply the NASA or other competent research values (but again, it would reveal similar practices if you'd check some outfits in the west).
- Some more strict investigations into errors of crews could reveal blatant skill and training deficits (and again some European companies would look just as bad).

You see, my remedy would not work, as globalization has slowly but surely leveled the field to the lower common denominator. Been there, seen that.
But this takes a lot of steam out of Schibulinskilitis argument: The West is no longer very far from slavery as well!

One should not throw stones in a porcelain shop.

EK does NOT buy fuel at a cheaper price than other airlines!!absolutely wrong

The joke of the year.
So tell me why did 2 of your ACs needed deicing last week one at FRA one at HAM? Temp between 5 and 8C and RA?
Maybe some tons of extra Fuel from DXB? For the rain or for the price?

The Germans are running scared just like the Canadians. Unlike EK, LH's product is sub-standard (nothing special or unique). If I were EK I would start flying future A380s on all allotted German routes and frequencies to maximise its revenue in that market since access will be limited going forward. Make it a bit cheaper (not much cheaper) and easier for all Germans to get to Middle East, India and Asian destinations (especially highlighting those LH does not serve).

I'm a serving Emirates pilot and, if the weathers ok, we carry minimum fuel just about everywhere, ESPECIALLY Europe and the US.

There are a number of ports from which we tanker fuel IN to Dubai from, as it's cheaper!!

The rain- At times our dispatch is a little conservative when it comes to winter weather. HOWEVER they are just as likely to order tons extra OUT of Europe IN to Dubai at the slightest hint of Fog.

In short- you have no idea what you are talking about....

REF joke of the year ,
long haul flight, then turnround in less than 2 hours regularly means ice patches on top of wing in damp conditions and temps as quoted. Am told by crew of problem with 345 downunder in the summer where due to cold soak then short transit had the same problem but no de-ice avail !

quality product?
 

They have a good enough position within the Star Alliance and the main battles are fought at home against the likes of Air Berlin and Lyin'air.
Without the help of the government in a open and "fair" market.
Having worked for LH for almost 20 years and some years for EK, I think I can give a better assessment of the "qualities":
LH has an outstanding training, maintenance and operations standard, while EK is a dog and pony show compared to that!
Let's start with EK's new shiny aircrafts with meter long lists of deferred items, pilots entering a cockpit while the APU is running and no wobbly "mechanic" is there to explain why some CBs are pulled or popped etc...
The MCC is always happy to send aircrafts to Germany to have problem items fixed that the own maintenance is not able to solve.
The flight operation is a complete joke run mainly by leftover Poms and some locals like the clueless malicious clown AAR...and there are high fives at the OCC when the on time rate reaches 50%.:D
Ground operations managed to lose my bags at least twice a year while that never happened with LH ever. Lots of fun with the EK "lost" baggage department. :{
Why do you think there are almost no ex LH pilots working for EK?
(I know only of one who came for family reasons)
Even pilots coming from LH subsidiaries are truly shocked after they went through what EK calls training!:eek:
All that would cost money that EK invests rather in the only inventive PR and marketing departments.
The inflight entertainment is indeed world class (when it works properly) but I personally don't need that anyway. The service from the mostly 3rd world cabin crew is IMHO overrated and on the way down and some of the cabins of "older" B777 and A330 look more like Biman or AirIndia to me...:}
As a full paying pax don't get me started with the "help" you get from their hotlines etc. so I am preferring SIA now with a truly great service and comparable prices.
They are part of an alliance, the real way of fair global business...working together worldwide and leave the local markets to the local partners....like in a real partnership.
EK would never be part of that, they are the greedy predators without any interest in a partnership...
And what a joke is that fuel price issue? Achmed pays from his airline to his fuel supplier...left pocket to right pocket:ok:!
Anyway...hope my fellow Krauts will kick their greedy a$$es...:p

Shall I just change the thread title to Air Canada and Emirates, same old arguments.. Please stay on subject. Watching you!

EGGW

Schil.... :D
How we can compare Germany, one of the most advanced countries in the world both socially and economically with the UAE, a fascist/middle age country runned on slavery whose only merit is to have made a hole in the sand.. well not even that... the BP fuickers did.
EK is just a scam runned on intimidation and exploitation with the business model of Mc Donalds.
Oil will be no longer a factor in shorter then predicted time and is better for them to start changing. Human and worker rights and then we talk about fair trade!
I would put levies on any goods coming form country whose salaries, social benefit and rights are susbstantially inferior from western standard.Europe is starting to realize the backlashes of freetrade and globalization and will have to do something about it or there will be increasing social unrest.

In other words you would seek to see a substantial majority of the Human Race live in poverty and starvation?

Do you think the world can support a Western lifestyle for eveyone on Earth?

At the end of the day you say EK pays the regular price for fuel and some including me just don' t believe it.
So we should stick with what we are paid for, flying Aircrafts and not politics!

City,

But you didn't, did you? You made a statement of fact that is incorrect.

Who exactley is it that you think provides EK with cheap fuel and why?

The UAE does not produce fuel, it sells crude oil at the market price. The vast majority of this comes from Abu Dhabi, a very small amount from Dubai. Oil companies then refine it overseas and ship some of it back- why would they do this for any less than the going rate?

If EK gets cheap fuel in Dubai, why do we often tanker fuel in the other direction?

Bilateral Air Services Agreement (ASA) – country A sits down with country B and sets limits on what may be flown between the two. Assuming it’s not an Open Skies anything goes deal, the starting point is the size of the local market between country A and country B.

Germany is almost unique in Europe (along with Austria) in collecting true origin/destination data in its national air passenger statistics collection. So they know exactly how many EK passengers are destined for Dubai and how many are travelling onwards. Equally, they know how many passengers are travelling Germany-UAE via other transfer points.

So you can be sure that the rights available under the current bilateral pretty much reflect the true demand for Germany/UAE travel. If Emirates want the additional rights to serve markets beyond DXB, *shrug*. That’s not what’s on the table.

Sorry Wizofoz you are right of course, you continue being a TRI/DEC in a shinny new jet and I 'll continue playing my FS98 in my windowless basement!
What is a Püsh Bütton??? :ugh:

They might do it for less than the market rate because it is all more or less Government/Family owned. My knowledge of accounting regulations is very very limited but if i see what differences we have in europe e.g. France vs. Ireland
I won' t imagine who many trickery is possible in a family runned country like the UAE or especially DXB. Who really knows who pays whos bills in DXB!

Even if the UAE need to import some refined oil I hardly doubt they import a large percantage.

Wiz... I definetely think so.
Just a matter of redistributing wealth more equally. Let's start by impeding the enrichment of managers with bonuses based just on financial performance and to get rid of Middle Age situation like UAE where a bunch of locals spend its time buying expensive cars and running around the world on private 744 while exploited labourers live on 200 dollars a month in concentration camps.

no refineries????
 

The refinery in Jebel Ali, Dubai, has increased the total capacity of the UAE by about 60%. This refinery is the UAE's third refinery after Ruwais and Um al-Nar in the emirate of Abu Dhabi, which have a combined capacity of 200,000 barrels per day. The emirates of Sharjah and Fujairah also have refineries, each with a potential capacity of 80,000 barrels per day, but they have never been operational due to financial and technical problems. The refinery is operated by the Emirates National Oil Co. (ENOC) which is owned by the Dubai government.

The investment in the plant was $500 million. The plant took two and a half years to complete and covers 500,000 square metres. It involved the pouring of around 22,600 cubic metres of cement for foundations, structures and pre-cast pipe rack, as well as the installation of 15,000 tons of equipment and the laying of 223 kilometres of electric cables and 155 kilometres of instrument cables. The construction was completed on time and within budget.

may I assume you take fuel in the other direction because in flight refueling is not a viable solution?

Forget LH and EK waving their knobs at each other.... Has anyone asked the German public? Seems to me that the answer is obvious - all flights in and out of Deutschland are usually full, ZO, the Germans seem happy enough heh:}

Sheik,

Thank-you for the info on UAE refining- nrews to me. It still stands that most of the oil refined and used in Dubai comes from Abu Dhabi, and they certainly wouldn't give it to EK any cheaper than market rate.

City,

Please point out where my post was insulting or de4meaning to you, and explain why you felt the need to respond like this.

I pointed out a factual error you made, why is this a trigger for personal attacks?

Who, exactley, is "They"??

Do you know what "Tax" is?

Apparently you do, or else what reason would you have for saying that EK pays market rates is a joke?

The UAE is a federation. EK is owned by the Dubai Government, which is one member state, not the seat of the Federal Government, and has precious little oil.

And your solution to this is import tarrifs? Who do you think will suffer the most if the export industries of developing countries are decimated?

We TANKER fuel through Dubai from several ports.

@WK
 

If we ask ze schtooopit averatsch Kraut, they vill go for the cheapest and the nice facade of an airline because zey have no clue vot's going on behind it.
Like the Lemmings worldwide they buy everything that's cheap...including poisonous chinese toys :}
Btw. ze LH flights are also fully booked! :eek:
My wise 78 year old mother rather spends a hundred Euro more and fly SQ or LH to visit me...flew with EK before! :ok:

Dear Wiz..the world will change willing or not.
This rate of consumption of the planet reserves is unstainable. Global warming is a fact. Million of square meter of ice on polar caps has already melted and 2010 has had the second highest temperature average since 1880.
I believe you are from Australia... look what happen in Queensland.
The only way is to cut eccess and the only solution is social ( less disequality, more education) technological ( alternative energies and more specifically alternative fuel for aviation) and economical ( excess of freedom in markets will bring mankind to self extinction). Emergering country should start thinking of controlling demographic growth and to increases wages and and rights to boost internal consumption instead of flooding the markest with cheap products.
UAE is an absurd mix of first and third world with the highest procapita green house emission on the planet. Sorry but the solution is less billionairs around.
Rockfeller that for sure is not a socialist is spending a huge amount of his wealth along with many other capitalist to curb demographic growth in emerging countries. Does this rings a bell?

I am not talking about taxes which I know quite well because I have to pay them each month.
I meant what you can hide or move to another costposition on your balance sheet.
GCAA is a gov agency airport operator, airport handling and the airlines ist government owned and you seriously say there is no advantage out of this position for EK?
I simply don' t think so!

I am out of here need to do traffic pattern in a c172 around Meigs field!

nice day to all

Sheik,

By far the biggest component of green-house emissions comes from the rising average wealth of places like China and India.

Billionaires tend to have 747s parked in front of their mansions, with their 26 Ferraris safely locked away in the garage- the actual output of environmentally harmful substances as a result of this tiny portion of the worlds population is nothing compared to hundreds of new coal-fired electrical plants in China, or millions of Tatas in Dehli and Mumbai.

But what to do? Deny billions the chance of a better life? As you say, the world will change without any help from us! Much more sensible to come up with better alternatives (WHEN will we get real about Nuclear!!)

Global trade is pulling billions out of poverty. Philanthropists like Rockefeller and Gates aren't just giving out bowls of rice- their strategy is to improve the health and education of the poor so that they neither want nor need as many children.

Blocks to trade are blocks to the development of such people- it literally means condemning many children to poverty and early death.

Yes it's annoying that so many are so rich by dint of where they are born, but how far is your and my standard of living above the Global average for exactly the same reason?

BTW, lucid and interesting discussion- keep it up!!

Must be a reason they are "ex this" and "ex that" :}
I don't know these guys, but I know the standards of both airlines and they are worlds apart!
LH must be doing a very good job, especially if they have such costly rewards and benefits for their employees. :ooh:

Interesting article:

Lufthansa wants to deny Emirates slots in Berlin -paper, UAE Industries - Maktoob News

I like the way this guy is complaining that LH can only fly to one destination in Dubai..maybe he doesnt realise that Dubai isnt a country.

After all LH also fly to Abu Dhabi so thats already 2 destinations in a small country so surely that is the same as flying to 4 destinations in a bigger country like Germany.

If LH are really that fussed about the number of destinations they serve in the UAE am sure they could fly into SHJ, RAK, AAN etc... that should balance things out a bit.

As an aside am sure that EK are going to find increasing complaints from other countries as they serve more and more destinations.

I also predict there will be increasing complaints about the growth plans of the Gulf carriers.

People may wonder what is the rationale for just three carriers (two of which have never made a penny profit) coming from two countries with a combined population of just 6.5m, to place orders for a hundred billion dollars’ worth of longhaul aircraft.

Why one carrier (Qatar), with a home market of 1.5m, should presume to grow its longhaul fleet in the next five years by the equivalent of one British Airways, or one Lufthansa, or one Air France.

Why one carrier (Emirates) should presume to grow its longhaul fleet (including options) in the next five years by the equivalent - almost - of the entire US airline industry's widebody capacity.

These megalomaniacal expansion plans may be a source of pride in the Gulf region, in the rest of the world they are viewed with the deepest suspicion.

Mmmm - so why was it you left LH for EK:confused::confused: And are now hanging around this forum like a child who can't let go of a toy:D:D

What IS the reason you are "ex that"??