Maybe just as the world was suspicious as a yankee brown fluid conquered the world, accompanied by a clown selling junkfood? I guess conquering the world market is only all right coming from the right countries, isn't it?

On a less sarcastic note: Let's wait for a nicely timed announcement, at any big airshow, of the three ME carriers that they cancel some x-hundred AB and B products. All this due to the inability to effectively use the birds.
Let us listen to the complaints of the then to be furloughed workers.

If you sell products for profit, you must consider them being used. Even in your neighborhood. Or people will stop buying them.

And when the product is moving people and stuff from, let's call it "A", to lets call it "B", surely the position of the hub (lets call it "D") may be simply a natural advantage, untouched by politics or greed.

South African steak is great becaus South Africa is a great place to raise a cow. The ME is a great place to found an airline, because it's a great strategic place for an Airline to BE.

Hi pool.

Sorry, but I don't think Coke and McDonalds are good comparisons. Both are publicly owned companies. Second, Coke is bottled regionally profiting the same boss you work for, as well as MCD being a franchise, each also owned locally. Further, both companies were not trying to break down the door to sweep their respective industries regionally. They grew naturally, and more accurately, at the behest and request of the men who own this land. because, if you build it they will come.

It would also be interesting to point out that these companies were intelligent enough not to build franchises or bottlers locally until they had license to do so.

Regarding buying product: of course boeing/ airbus would expect you to fly their new AC, but it's not really their business. They build and sell. airbus cannot grant landing rights in Germany any more than I could. If I sell you my lawn mower, it doesn't give you the right to cut my grass.

@WK
 

Because you asked sooo nicely:
I left LH after 20 years because I was kind of bored with the routine and wanted to see something else, just that simple.
Of course I came with a plan B unlike all the others who got stuck here :}
But I didn't take the advise of my boss to do what everybody else does at EK: "keep your a$$ covered and be happy with the paycheck at the end of the month". I started to very much dislike life at EK and Dubai and because I am a very outspoken person AAR was soon pressing my VP to fire me, so I thought it was time to leave that $h!t hole and execute plan B.
Now I've executed plan C and retired completely from aviation, all that just because I simply can.
But I have a lot of time in semi-retirement and I chose to hang around on this fascinating forum just because I simply like to, iPhone works fine on the beach!...unlike others who seem to use this forum a LOT (between their busy flying schedule, family and whatever private life they have left) to constantly show they only got a plan A...:p

Some valid arguments. Everyone wants to save and improve the world. But the other one has to start first ....

We saw how dearly this was to our companies and politicians during the crisis after 9/11. We don't need EK to destroy jobs, Swissair, Sabena, LTU et al were brilliant examples of SELF destruction. By the way, at that time the public, press and politicians told the furloughed pilots to look after themselves, that there were opportunities out there and they should not burden the social security system. They've done just that, with kids and wife and dog, and now face being told not to fly too much to the former home soil, not to endanger the former colleagues. - Hypocritical.

B and AB might only produce and sell. Maybe in your world they do not lobby and influence politics as heavily as possible to do so, but in reality its interwoven to a huge degree. I agree it's the government who acts in their interest by helping sales around the world, but then they help their airline to inhibit these sales competing with them. - Hypocritical.
By the way, both companies are heavily subsidized and therefore the public, via representatives, is so much involved, that the pure "selling" argument is somewhat oblivious. Those subsidies are also never brought up when the West blames the "subsidized ME airlines". I guess it's same, same but different, not - Hypocritical.

Take for instance the sugar trade. We sell Africa (and South America) the processing equipment for sugar cane. At the same time we export heavily subsidized sugar to these countries and destroy their industry (same goes for poultry). There are some embargoes for foreign sugar into some western countries, to protect the own industry, although much less cost effective, saying we must uphold self sufficiency. All bullocks and highly unfair, admitted but no one cares. - Hypocritical as well.

We can turn round and round with arguments and will find enough for both points of view, agreed.

EK/EY will have 28 weekly flights into ZRH/DXB, Swiss 7 into DXB. Swiss however does remakably well, even better than its parent LH. Why? They have restructured and have a very competitive product. They do not count bean for bean and might see their own advantage of better overall connectivity, for the airline and for the economy.


pool

Maybe because they are now owned by LH??:E
btw. an main reason they went bankrupt was because they didn't want to join any Alliance...:ugh:

Made no difference to the furloughed pilots though. (please read correctly: I didn't discuss reason, but consequences)

And if that's so, then why the fear of Emirates? Why the protectionist measures? They do not want to join an alliance, therefore, following your argument, they will soon go bankrupt.

o.k. consequences: Swiss is now a well functioning part of the LH Group and the Star Alliance. A lot of pilots/employees got employed by LH based on the negotiations for the take over.:ok:
EK, EY and QR dont need an Alliance as they are in an Alliance with their governments, something not allowed due to the competition laws elsewhere!
They wouldn't get away with their "business model" in any civilized country!
IMHO EK and EY are going to be in an Alliance sooner or later if they are de facto not already are!
I cannot prove any of that but looking at the way business is done in the UAE it should be easy cover that with some of the usual "creative bookkeeping":E
After all this is a rumour network, isn't it? ;)

Pretty definitve statement, with very little substance.

EK provides development to many people from many countries. For countries like Indonesia and the Phillipoines, expat labour who repatriate funds are one of their biggest foreign currency industries. EK is an enourmous employer of such people both directley, and through it's contribution to the overall Dubai ecconomy.

EK is not doing any of this at the expense of European carriers, as it can do things the Europeans simply can't do. Is Lufthansa going to provide a direct service Cochin to Munich? Karrachi to Hamburg? Of course not, there isn't anything like to traffic. But by having a stratigically placed hub, EK provides a one-stop service between these points.

Yes, ME carriers (as well of the carriers in other developing regions) have an advantage in labour costs. But when Lufthansa or BA turn-around in these places, guess which baggage loaders, refuelers and cleaners they contract to and guess how much they pay them? Do they give them a premium out of conscience, or pay the going rate?

Seems "exploitation" is ok if you're exploiting someone in a foreign country, just not in your own, and Coke and McDonalds (not to mention Nike and Walmart) are good examples!!

Globalization
 

I think we all agree somehow, depending on where we live, that globalization is not leading to fair trade...the playing fields are just too uneven.

When ever the rich nations have their commissions travel to developing countries, they have the corporate vultures with them and every "help" to these nations is linked to giving the corporations access to their markets.
"We give you money but we tell you how to spend it!"
The gouvernments owned by the corporations are working well together with corrupt regimes in these countries to the disadvantage of all working people.
A god read is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.
Indeed a very sad reality!
Anyway, what was this thread about?...just managed to find some local food between all the Nestle products in the corner shop...:(

Hahahah - you are good for a laugh! And you're telling me that the big US majors aren't in alliance with the US government:= After all, what is Chapter 11 protection other than government backing for a failed company:ugh::ugh:

Competition laws my ar$e in civilised countries:{

Stick to the beach and your happy retirement mein freund:ok:

@WK
 

While I happily stick to the beach, I ignore your obvious inability to keep your frustration with your miserable life from lacing your posts with personal insults...btw "mein freund" is reserved for friends...:mad:!
Ignore like in "ignore list" so you can shove any further comments...:p

Actually Schibulsky I was being friendly... If however you wish to play the part of a humourless Kraut then so be it:ugh::ugh:

As for miserable and frustrating life - interesting how you can interpret my life for me and my family!! Life's fine thanks - nor do I need to think about retirement although I could do so tomorrow. The thing is, I actually enjoy flying... Not something that I imagine you would understand having been a desk jockey:hmm::hmm:

.

Uh - oh - WK: That was a bit low. And now brace for incoming. In his earlier life Schiby actually drove fastmovers.

looks like a bitchy fight now :D

I bet on the kraut :ok:

The next round might be delayed by a couple of hours. It's bedtime in Bali now.

Have you ever met me:}:}:)

Oh well - if he drove fastmovers then good for him. See what happens when we makes assumptions based on faceless contact over internet boards:E

He just needs to catch up with a sense of humour:rolleyes:

When he was still with EK he sometimes smiled when we tossed some raw meat through that codelocked door on the 7th floor.

Shall we instead to contribute to help repay the omoungous debt (++ 139 billion USD according to latest news) Dubai has made to build some of the most idiotic project ever conceived without even getting in return the right to talk freely?

I bet on White Knight;):ok:

My friend WV2 I might be a joke but if you take that debt and divide it by the local population of Dubai per capita is the highest in the world. Again, how can you compare real economies with Dubai. Dubai is a small dictatorship producing nothing whose only assett is constituted by the possibility of legally exploiting the disinherited. A modern form of slavery. It doesn't produce anything and touristically demonstrated itself as failure. The Burj Khalifa is for 4/5th unsold. Real estate has lost 7/10th of it's value. That vision was maybe just the result of bad digestion? Emirates is the cow now and it is runned on the same ( lack of) principles. They are just milking you take it or leave it and no complaint.Still some self serving imbecills that lost contact with reality think they are privileged superman just because they can afford a Land Cruiser and a maid and tend to forget that are just the shape,the darker blue color of the suit and the salary the differences with the ineducated and unaware construction worker sweating in the sand.
Where is your dignity mate? You are so evidently wrong .You can invent all sort of bull**** concerning taxation, debt, the flaws of democracy, but still you can't open your window and scream that the government is ****.. can't you? The possibility of doing so is called freedom and has no price!.

Good morning gents, sorry but nothing really worth a fight!
The quotes (so why did I put WK on the ignore list again?) show me WKs state of mind pretty well. He believes that non pilots are a lower life form and Krauts have no humour etc....and then he probably droned on how happy he is with his life as a dependent driver at EK and that his plan A is still working fine.
And probably some more low blows he calls humour...:D

Anyway, what was that again about arguing on the internet and running in the special olympics...? :p

It seems that Schibulski is, to some extent, a hypocrite.

Living in Bali, taking advantage of cheap living costs, cheap golfing and and cheap entertainment all supplied by cheap labor.

No resemblance at all for the ME carriers at all :hmm:

On another note....

Many years ago the prime minister of Australia, who was in Brussels, was asked by the Euro press when was Australia going to drop the tariffs on European wine and agricultural equipment that was being exported to there.
J Howard nearly wet himself laughing when he responded by saying "as soon as Europe stop subsidising agricultural produce and dumping it on the rest of the world"

Not defending the gulf carriers, but they are not the only perpetrators in the globalised world we live in.

halas

Dear Halas, my maid earns more than I had to pay for my indian cleaner in DXB, she gets a full time salary for her part time job and brings her kids to splash in my pool. O.K. the villa is about what you pay for a 2BR in DXB nowadays. And if you decide to visit my golf club, they'll charge you 160 US$ for a round, my membership is more than double of the one at RAK, check here: Bali Golf - Indonesia Golf Event - Indonesia Open | New Kuta Golf . For entertainment you pay i.e. 30 US$ for a cheap bottle of Oz wine, thanks to 300% import duty :eek: And I am too old for the other "entertainment" ;) btw they are asking probably more than the hookers at Rattlesnake.:p
What was your point again?? :ooh:

Anyway, you are right about the western hypocrisy as I already also pointed out. But that doesn't justify the methods of the UAE...at all :ugh:

Hey Halas - you may have noticed that schibulsky doesn't like anyone arguing or disagreeing with him:} I disagree with him a couple of times and he puts me on his ignore list:E:E

Sour Kraut or sauerkraut?

Yes, but does she earn what you would have to pay her if you were in Germany?

What would a Golf Membership with the Equivelent workforce paid a German-style, unionised workforce cost?

Less exploitive is still exploitation.

Of course I don't pay her german wages...what's the point? A doctor in Indonesia earns far less than a german maid!! Does local cost of living tell you something? Btw if you calculate the salary I pay her for the 12 hours a week up to a full time job, it's 70% of a doctor's :eek:
And you might not believe it, but I rent out my local real estate also NOT for german rates. :ooh:
I don't exploit, I don't abuse and I pay all my staff very good, just because that's how I was raised...compare that to the treatment/payment the Indonesian maids get in the Middle East, especially in Saudi! :yuk:
And my "unionized" golf club in Germany cost less than what I pay here. Ask your green keeper, with the modern machinery the amount of workers to operate the mowers etc. are almost the same everywhere.

I didn't come here just for a cheap life...NO, it's exactly the same reason I left that sandy sh!thole...QUALITY OF LIFE, plus a great climate, nice and friendly people and a sunny green island with some beautiful nature as a topping! :ok:

...do I hear some "white noise" in the background? :E

SOOOOO....

It's fine and dandy for you to pay according to the going rate where you reside.

But if an airline does so and get's a competitive advantage as a result.......

You are aware, of course, that Emirates is one of the best paid jobs in most catagories of workers it employs in the greater region? There's a reason people come from all over the world to work for them.

And why is it that your current residence has a better quality of life for you than your Unionised, Tarrifed, Subsidised Homeland???

Oh, yeah-

That would be why hundreds of thousands of Indonesians have to leave their home country to find work overseas? Not a little in part because of the upward pressure on cost of living foreiners coming in to live cheap cause?

Guys please get this thread back on track & avoid using it as a vehicle for trading personal insults and character assessments of retired individuals in Bali.

@wiz
 

OMFG...reading is really not your strong point!
I overpay and I spoil my staff...call me an idiot for that if you like,
but don't f:mad:g call me an exploiter!! :=
I pay at least double the wages of Dubai and the cost of living here is a fraction of that in Dubai.

And please tell me what's the "going rate" in the UAE and who defines it?
Is it the 500 dhs EK pays his cleaners a month for a 12hrs/6days/week without a flight home in 3 years?
Or the "normal rate" for expats, normally based on skin color?
Or are you talking about the "additional rate" for Emiratis?
Most probably you are only talking about the pilot's rates...
Gimme a break man...you seem to have no friggin idea what the average rate is at EK...anyway they couldn't pay me enough to take all their sh!t!!

And I would happily live in unionized, organized Germany munching nice Schnitzel all day...but somehow I cannot find an island there with
temperatures around 30 degrees all year and a 12 months golf season:{

You have also not a trace of a clue about life in Indonesia:
There is probably not a single Balinese working in the middle east as a maid...because they got enough jobs here due to the tourist industry and the expats, it's the other way around, thousands of Indonesians from other parts are moving to Bali for work...The 10000000000000 Indonesians who are, according to you, leaving their country to work overseas haven't even seen a white face in their area or in their whole life, so WTF is the "upward pressure on their cost of living"??? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Sorry moderator, but the ignorance here is just getting too much...

You're right WK,

Schz doesn't like people dis-agreeing with him, PARTICULARLY when it is shown he doesn't practice what he preaches....

Yep schibulsky - although you'll not see this you are showing what an ignorant fellow you really are. Nice rant:}:}:}by the way!

and

Err, sorry old chap, so that means you WERE exploiting your indian cleaner in Dubai......tut tut

You exploiter you.....:}

Apology
 

Dear WK, Wiz and all others helping me see the light,

I see my shortcomings now as a hypocrite, an exploiter and a general low life.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and exposing my utter ignorance.
I humbly admit that it was pure envy that made me question your superiority, now I also know why it was GW Bush, a pilot, who made
this world a better place...thank you!
You soar through the blue yonder like a free bird untouched by the lowly existence on the ground. I am just a slave of my
co-directors and I will never achieve your divine status. I beg your forgiveness mighty Knight, and ask permission to take you off my ignore list.
It was foolish and will prevent me from receiving your priceless advise...may be after I exploit the poor workers in Bali, Malaysia, South Africa and
Mozambique to reap in some undeserved high profits, you the guiding light of intelligence could tell me how much profit share my worthless existence should receive.
I was also an ungrateful dispatcher (please excuse speaking of this useless profession in this exclusive circle) to reject the blessings of
the free society of Dubai and the motherly care of Emirates...I sincerely apologize for my shameful behavior.
I also thank you for showing me how to sophisticatedly conduct a discussion, with that unlimited background information you achieved as godlike masters of the airways, you simply destroyed my pathetic attempt of reasoning. I also learned a lot of new fascinating words that I can use to take on the enemies
of free trade and globalization....thank you...thank you...thank you!!!

So I rest my case and hang my head in shame...

Thank god for that, this thread was complete **** anyway!!!!!!

I propose that Schibulsky is immediately beatified.

Now where was the bit that I discussed exploited workers? Seems to me I was discussing LH, EK and the German public that fill EKs' several times a day flights to Deutschland... And it went down like a 1000lb bomb - sorry, lead balloon:E:E

Hopefully the thread will go back to topic!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah let's go to back the topic. EK vs LH.
Such a shame in Germany the Nazi are not in power any more. In that case they would have had so many things in common that they could have actually formed an alliance.

Schibulsky,

No, it is we who owe you an appology.

Please accept it with all our humility.

You see, you made the completely valid point that EK were exploiting bastards because some of their employees earn less than your current employees (i.e about the same as your former employees) and, as the correct amount to pay an employee to not be exploiting them is EXACTLEY the amount you have decided, this should not be explored, challenged or questioned.

Some one is exploited if you say they are exploited, and are not if you decided how much to pay them.

That much should have been obvious,

We're sorry....

Uh -oh ... as EK versus Lufti has kind of dried up now, what about EK versus SAS?
TC has just announced CPH from 01.08.