This policy change may have some logical merits but I believe will be unsustainable for the following reasons.

1. This is not a career airline in the sense that nobody joined this company as a second officer with an accepted promotion path i.e. narrowbody FO - widebody FO - narrow CP - wide CP. Most of the DEFO joined with considerable experience and many of whom gave up the opportunity for narrow body command at their previous company to benefit from the chance of quicker wide-body command at EY along with salary benefits etc etc. These guys are going to be incredibly annoyed and will result in more people resigning and therefore a bigger recruitment headache.

2. I believe EY will struggle to recruit purely for the 320. People come to middle east normally as the position is a step up from what they are currently doing. Offering 320 only is not appealing enough and given that they can walk into EK and QR onto a widebody I think the choice is obvious, plus the fact that if you joined EY now command is about 6 years, EY is holding little to make it look attractive.

3. From next year for the next 3 years we are receiving about 12 x 777. In theory a 777 FO who is eligible for command will have to transfer to 320 for 6 months then do upgrade. So thats a full 320 transition course and then a command course later. Then we will have to replace that 777 FO with either an internal transfer from airbus fleet (again a full transition) or hire DEFO which according to post above is not the case as all recruitment is on 320. On top of all this for each new aircraft that arrives you have to transfer about 10 crews from airbus to boeing (all full transition course) and then CCQ 10 crews from 320 to 330 and also recruit guys onto 320 at the bottom to cover all this movement. That is a LOT of training!


I think putting the emirati SO onto the 340 as cruise pilots for a year or 2 is actually a good idea but I don't see how that should affect many other things.

The 320 seems to be heading for a true low-cost company now and I think all the recent changes are just an indication that the current management has clearly lost sight of what the airline is about and where its going. At least EK and QR have a clear strategy and are following it through.

There are going to be a lot of new opportunities coming up in the next few years and I don't think its going to be long at all before EY is having a major problem to both retain and recruit pilots unless the money goes up substantially. They may have slowed deliveries slightly but the fact remains we still have about almost 20 aircraft arriving over the next 3.5 years, majority of which is widebody and if they insist on recruiting only onto 320 and everything else supplied through internal transfers, I think it will turn into an impossible training and recruiting nightmare!

And are we going to keep this twisted current career plan just to suit those people with an ego problem?


Jumbo Wambo, you already forgot what handling is? :E

Most people would accept starting or getting upgraded on the A320 provided there is a clear-cut career progression policy, eg. two years on type then bid for whatever they want.

What people would not accept is start or get upgraded on the A320 and the following month they see DECs or others starting on the 777 or A330.

A transparent career progression policy will present challenges in an expanding airline but so be it. FLT OPS, Training and Standards Department Heads get paid the big bucks and it is up to them to sort out.

If they know there are 10-11 777s arriving in the next couple of years why not start upgrading now and dual seat qualify all captains.

It only takes a bit of forward planning and the realisation that employees are a company’s biggest asset.

Jumbo,
"What decisions you're gonna make going tripple daily to BAH, DOH
MCT???"

A lot more than you would make asleep in the bunk!

If you are a 777/340/330 F/O, in order to get your command it has to be on the 320? Seems silly especially from 777 with training costs!:eek:

Can anyone who works for Etihad confirm this, or am I just misreading some of the previous posts?
Cheers

K.E

This is all rumour at the moment - nothing has been released so no one can confirm anything sorry.

I would hate to be an EY manager - we are never happy. I know it is not perfect, but please tell us what they should be doing if you have suggestions??

Guys asked for faster progression to the A330 so the company introduced A320/A330 MFF AS WELL AS the ongoing A330 transfers. But we not happy because there is not enough 330 flying. Surely some is better than none - or should they have left it as it was?

Now we have complained about the upgrade policy and according to this thread, it is about to be changed to make upgrades on the A320 in seniority like a "legacy carrier", but we are not happy with that either.

Someone said the managers and training department should figure out how to do this, but it seems to me that they are trying to, but no matter what they do are criticized.

It would seem if they make the 320 guys happy they will p..s off the 330/340 & 777 guys and if they make them happy they p..s off the 320 guys. Is there an equitable solution? Please share if you have ideas.

Sandpit

All new hires start on the 320 and available upgrades are awarded via seniority. That's pretty much how it works at the majority of major airlines in the world. They can save money by hiring directly into the 777/340 etc but those savings are lost when all the pilots who feel they have been lied to resign and go elsewhere.

Well Jambowambo you can take my 0.02 with good intentions or otherwise... remember command is about maturity as much as it is about everything else.. hopefully the thread has wound you up and its not your usual self talking...

All you widebody guys trying to defend the training cost theory to justify the current upgrade policy theory are making me laugh!!! We all get your point that you want to jump directly from RHS to LHS and keep your butts in the big plane without experiencing the tuk tuk.....

First of all, Is EY that tight on their training budget? Quality of training makes the reputation of an airline. We're already getting the bare minimum in terms of training. So no need to lower the bar even more.

Second of all, for guys coming from 330/340 background. it doesn't cost that much more to transition to the 320. Maybe 1 or 2 sims more than a 320 rated guy. That's the beauty of Airbus, we're just a big happy family!!!!

Last but not least. Everybody has been lied to when joining EY so tough **** for all of us..... Now let's move on and start again on healthy bases and new FAIR rules for everybody. I understand ther will never be pilots brotherhood in this part of the world, but 320 guys have been shafted more than anybody else in this company and they deserve some fair treatment.

removeb4flight,

you seem to have taken my post in a different meaning.

I am by no means at all against fleet transfer airbus - boeing - airbus - etc etc. And I think that in general it makes sense for the company to do the upgrades on the 320 and I most definitely think the existing 320 guys deserve their chance to move onto new fleets.

My point was that considering particularly in the case of a 777 FO going to do his upgrade on 320 he has to do a full transition course onto type which is about 8 sims, then another 8 sims for command, then a new FO will be transferred from say 320/330/340 to 777 requiring another block of sims plus then a new recruit - further sim even if already rated 320. So maybe that would come to approx 30 sims in total as opposed to perhaps 8 if you just moved a 777 guy right to left.

The entire point of my post is I don't think that the company will sustain this entire process, even if it is logical and fair, as from what I have heard the sims are already working fairly close to capacity and they are already limited on command upgrades to 4 a month due restrictions in training capacity and that is based on transferring from right to left on the same type of aircraft.

I guess if they buy sim time from external companies this problem could be solved. I don't believe it to be a money issue particularly and that is not something I care about either!

Happy landings!

What do you mean? You guys are not allowed to drink alcohol? Not allowed to go to Dubai? Not allowed to go out at night and find a nice good looking girl?

Training and sim time is the cost of doing business at an airline. Do you think Lufthansa, Air France, United, etc upgrade people out of seniority from the right seat to the left seat on the 777/747 in order to save money and sim time? If they can run an airline properly then so can EY. If EY mgt really cared about training costs then they wouldn't be spending hundreds of millions of dirhams on over 150+ cadets, many of whom are expats and contribute nothing to the emiratization process. What does each cadet cost from start to finish? I would guess it's at least a million AED.

Laker,
Easy goes there matey......Those expat cadets/second officers you refer to are bonded to Etihad for 5 years from the date of their final line check and have to pay back to Ey almost half a million dirhams.......so yes they are very lucky to be where they are, but they are far from being on the gravy train.

Laker, you have pilots at Cathay complaining cadets aren't costing the company enough, you have pilots in Europe complaining cadets are paying to put them out of a job. I guess you do not see how new pilots t&c's directly affect yours do you?:ugh:

You both entirely misunderstood the purpose of my post. The cadets don't bother me in the least. What I was pointing out was that Etihad has deep pockets when it comes to training and consequently should not be claiming that they can't afford to upgrade by seniority. A few extra sim sessions to train a bus FO to become a 777 CA will not break the bank. Just a drop in the bucket when you consider the amount of money EY is spending elsewhere in the training department.

Reading comprehension fellas.....

Point taken!:)

Right on
 

RED Z 3 you said it perfectly. You maybe my new hero:ok:

Everyone seems to have skipped over the little chestnut of Cadet's as S/O's. One Captain, One F/O and Two S/O's on ULR flights (just like QF and others) will halve the number of F/O's and Capt's required on those ULR's with a corresponding reduction in the number of upgrades and fleet transfers :{

Even if all 320 guys were given 330 ratings at minimal training cost over the next year or so, this would make things much better. If I got a LON, BRU and FRA and the rest 320 every month I would have no complaints! The problem is guys are doing a 330 line check and then back to the 320 solid!

I actually enjoy the 320 flying, just not the poor times I'm doing the the Job. 2or3 night flights and then a 0055 local rep for KWI, followed by 2 days of 0730 local reps is just VERY TIRING and does need to change!

Overall I'm happy but management need to make the rosters and career progression more fair for all (320,330,340 & 777).

Lets hope we get through this because the future at EY could be bright with light at the end of the tunnel, just hope its not a train!

Safe Flying!

"I actually enjoy the 320 flying, just not the poor times I'm doing the the Job. 2or3 night flights and then a 0055 local rep for KWI, followed by 2 days of 0730 local reps is just VERY TIRING and does need to change! "


"guys, no worries no more 3 nights in a row".... just 3 nights in 4 days (or 4 nights in 5 days for captains): thats much better!!

i.e.: not just very tiring but VERY UNSAFE.
:=

New Career Progression - the TRUTH