ETIHAD's NEW Career Progression Plan
 

Trying to start a new thread for yet another discussion for all.To find out the truth or rumour behind this so called 'rumour'.

Heard on the line and also have seen it posted by someone in another thread that EY will soon rolling out a new career progression plan for all.

-All upgrades on 320
-All recruitment/new joining will be on 320 as well
-Everyone moves up the fleet according to seniority just like any other legacy carrier around the world.

Well guys, anyone with first hand? second hand? info very much appreciated. Let's keep the ball rolling!

;)

They have been very, very clear that they do not want newly upgraded captains flying with the cadet pilots.

Upgrades are going 330 for 500 or so hours, then back to Mixed Fleet Fly (read: only fly) the 320. Current 330 captains are being forced to the 320 MFF. Direct entry captains are being hired.

These are the facts in spite of your rumors.

No way in hell I'd go 320. I'd sooner stay on the 340 for a couple more years.

Especially in the face of the A320 turning into a low-cost department with the related lifestyle.

With all the broken promises they already gave (in fact: they never kept ANY promises), who knows if and when one would ever go back. For all we know, they might just suddenly take some DECs for the 330/340/777, and leave everyone else on the 320 forever. :ugh:

The salary isn't that brilliant, and the 4th stripe not appealing enough for me to jeopardize my family! :=
If I want to fly four sectors per day (per night) for an average salary, I might as well go to Asia and get my life back.

Inshallah! :}

Sorry, but that's crap!
It would be fair, if we all started up the same way. If, for example, everybody had started as a cadet with Etihad and had the same background.

But some guys came and joined on the 320, others came with a 330 rating, or with whatever else.

So what makes it fair to force everyone to go to the 320 for an upgrade; perhaps some of us have already had it before, and accepted a right seat on the Boeing or widebody Airbus instead?

Fair, from my POV, is if you get your command on whatever fleet you're on.

This is what WE were promised when we joined and the reason why we came. Now the management may screw us up the way it screwed you guys, but with what right do you claim OUR positions now?

Since we don't have any seniority-system here, and no union, you can't compare this place with other country's legacy carriers. :=

We have a seniority system and we do follow it, at least for career progression wise. If just in case you got by passed, say for example a CCQ/MFF to 340, you can always write it in and fix things up. I have witnessed true case as such.

Yes, all upgrades on 330 and thereafter 500 hours AND 2 OPCs before moving to 320 for MINIMUM 2 years is the current policy. Everyone is aware of this for now. Question is how long will this policy stays? forever?
I need not remind you that we used to have upgrades on 320 for a very short period of time before they changed the policy again.

And also Etihad's plan to go all economy taken us all by shock, not that anyone had heard of it prior to it's implementation anyway. So this new rumour about career progression might as well be true.

We have to wait till RH comes back from leave it seems. Things MIGHT change. Till then it will always remain as a rumour.

There are definitely pros and cons with this new career progression plan. The list is long and the debate will be endless. However just to remove anymore anxiety among us, anyone with strong intel/info from within are greatly appreciated to share with us all.

King_fifi, you are pretty well informed. Heard the same recently. It was about time fixing our career progression scheme.

Nighfire, fairness starts and resides in one unique progression plan being the same to everybody, that's the only way to make a seniority list works.

Why is that? What difference is it gonna make to you apart that you won't have J meal left-overs?

If they sold the fleet and got Dash 8's, yes i'd leave. Thats your only answer isn't it, leave? We do retain that right. Its not like there are no jobs out there, what ever your fleet.
As for salary is it really that bad? I dont like the way things change but as for the cash its not so bad.
I am not too sure about this divide between the fleets either, I've never see a widebody crew ignore a a narrow body crew, just doesn't sound true.
EY is not all roses, yes, but is it really that bad?

Well said, :D.

well said :D

on the other hand, could this be the reason why the assessment hasn't started yet for the Q3 successful bidders?

They do not even have to go as far as saying all new commands are on the A320.

K.I.S.S. is the answer. All they need is transparency and a seniority list.

All commands are advertised / awarded on seniority and come with a two year freeze.

If you do not want a A320 command do not bid for it and wait for your number to come up on the A330, A340 or whatever.

We are going to have cadets on all fleets soon. Their are to many of them just to put them all on 320.

Suffering from short memory aren’t we?
 

Red_Z3, regarding upgrades there was never a change of policy. The A330 has always been the base aircraft. Due to consolidation measures and the luck of command vacancies back in April 2008 it was decided to upgrade on the A320 for a short while. It was a temporary solution to keep the upgrades going and the bidding system was introduced to make things fair. There was a choice of A320 quick command or stay as FO on the widebody until such a slot becomes available. Shortfuel for example that seems to agree with you was the first to take the quick command route and has been fairly enjoying his Captain salary and pay scales ever since just like the “unlucky” A320 DECs. Some of your colleagues had choosen to wait on the FO pay scale and finally after getting the fleet of their choice are forced to fly the A320 after 500 hours including B777 guys who opted for the A330/340. Meanwhile some of those “unlucky” early A320 captains seems to have priority for a transfer to the A340 as they will be the first to complete 2 years of MFF A320/A330 even thought they are junior to the ones forced to move to the A320 as we speak. I do agree with you, just stick to seniority and to consistent policies.

Is there a salary difference between the 320 and 330? Or is it just a rostering difference? I had been on the NB for a good 9 yrs before I got my upgrade so I believe I can offer a bit of insight...

Take all the time you can get on the NB short haul. It will be invaluable in your career. From handling to decision making doing things 5 times a day will give you a lot more experience then doing it 5 times a month.

Safe flying.

From what world are you coming from??? Companies that have to do this usually don't have medium jets! That's why.

There is no "issue" about cadets and new commanders on the same fleet...AIMS will take care of a no pairing rule for the first hundreds hours. all that's required is a sufficient number of experienced capt and f/o. Or somebody should tell me how most European carriers upgrade f/o and train cadets on the same fleet (AF, LH, BA...etc).


Am speechless...:ugh:
Try again :rolleyes:

D-Day! Brace yourself!
 

Hi Starskate

CCQ- Cross crew Qualification
MFF- Mixed Fleet Flying either 320/330 and 330/340

MFF is only true for 330/340 as 320/330 in Etihad you only fly 320 and 330 perhaps once a month just to keep your recency.

Grdproxinop, so it's true then? Just awaiting for RH's approval?

Red_Z3 Great post!

320 upgrades
 

may not be the most popular thing to do, but i believe it's the right way to go...

DJUGGLER:

Are you a 320 f/o??? :}

I also agree that this should be the right career progression, but I understand that many 330 F/O will be disappointed because they expected to be upgraded on a wide body!

Many more resignation in the nearest future for EY??? :eek:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John60
Shortfuel for example that seems to agree with you was the first to take the quick command route and has been fairly enjoying his Captain salary


HA HA HA!! good one!

wouldn' t it be nice if it were true? :rolleyes:


@ Dubaiforerever,

do you really think the company cares about disappointing people?
Are you that new in the company?

I don t think people would have an issue flying the 320 if the rosters were decent. most guys want to escape from the fleet, because they are forced to fly rosters that make them age quick and fly fatigue.
Some guys joined EY on the 320 whereas they could have been hired by other companies on widebody aircraft. they chose the 320 because when properly done, a narrowbody roster can yield way better quality of life. EY just need to get their sh*t together before the exodus happens.

Dubaiforever,

I do understand the frustrations this shift of policy will bring to the 330/340 fo's aspiring to get their widebody command. But the dynamics in this business are just far too complex for us to control and dictate at our own terms. I'm in the widebody as well, and the good lifestyle and the prospects of getting my widebody command which by my own count will come next year may just be too painful to give up, but I have reached that level of maturity (or stupidity) to just take things as they are, esp if you want to survive long in this business.

We are still left with three options though:
1. Stay in the widebody and keep that lifestyle with no guarantees of when widebody slots will open up again
2. Take the narrowbody command and wait for MFF to A330 (if it ever comes)
3. a. Leave
b. Stay

Remember it's your life, it's your career, and it's your responsibility, so choose wisely. If you ask me which option/s I'll take, that one I'll keep to myself. Goodluck!

With this new career progression, will EY finally consider non rated A320 FOs? Neither EK nor QR require types, so just wondering if EY would follow suit?

This policy change may have some logical merits but I believe will be unsustainable for the following reasons.

1. This is not a career airline in the sense that nobody joined this company as a second officer with an accepted promotion path i.e. narrowbody FO - widebody FO - narrow CP - wide CP. Most of the DEFO joined with considerable experience and many of whom gave up the opportunity for narrow body command at their previous company to benefit from the chance of quicker wide-body command at EY along with salary benefits etc etc. These guys are going to be incredibly annoyed and will result in more people resigning and therefore a bigger recruitment headache.

2. I believe EY will struggle to recruit purely for the 320. People come to middle east normally as the position is a step up from what they are currently doing. Offering 320 only is not appealing enough and given that they can walk into EK and QR onto a widebody I think the choice is obvious, plus the fact that if you joined EY now command is about 6 years, EY is holding little to make it look attractive.

3. From next year for the next 3 years we are receiving about 12 x 777. In theory a 777 FO who is eligible for command will have to transfer to 320 for 6 months then do upgrade. So thats a full 320 transition course and then a command course later. Then we will have to replace that 777 FO with either an internal transfer from airbus fleet (again a full transition) or hire DEFO which according to post above is not the case as all recruitment is on 320. On top of all this for each new aircraft that arrives you have to transfer about 10 crews from airbus to boeing (all full transition course) and then CCQ 10 crews from 320 to 330 and also recruit guys onto 320 at the bottom to cover all this movement. That is a LOT of training!


I think putting the emirati SO onto the 340 as cruise pilots for a year or 2 is actually a good idea but I don't see how that should affect many other things.

The 320 seems to be heading for a true low-cost company now and I think all the recent changes are just an indication that the current management has clearly lost sight of what the airline is about and where its going. At least EK and QR have a clear strategy and are following it through.

There are going to be a lot of new opportunities coming up in the next few years and I don't think its going to be long at all before EY is having a major problem to both retain and recruit pilots unless the money goes up substantially. They may have slowed deliveries slightly but the fact remains we still have about almost 20 aircraft arriving over the next 3.5 years, majority of which is widebody and if they insist on recruiting only onto 320 and everything else supplied through internal transfers, I think it will turn into an impossible training and recruiting nightmare!

And are we going to keep this twisted current career plan just to suit those people with an ego problem?


Jumbo Wambo, you already forgot what handling is? :E

Most people would accept starting or getting upgraded on the A320 provided there is a clear-cut career progression policy, eg. two years on type then bid for whatever they want.

What people would not accept is start or get upgraded on the A320 and the following month they see DECs or others starting on the 777 or A330.

A transparent career progression policy will present challenges in an expanding airline but so be it. FLT OPS, Training and Standards Department Heads get paid the big bucks and it is up to them to sort out.

If they know there are 10-11 777s arriving in the next couple of years why not start upgrading now and dual seat qualify all captains.

It only takes a bit of forward planning and the realisation that employees are a company’s biggest asset.

Jumbo,
"What decisions you're gonna make going tripple daily to BAH, DOH
MCT???"

A lot more than you would make asleep in the bunk!

If you are a 777/340/330 F/O, in order to get your command it has to be on the 320? Seems silly especially from 777 with training costs!:eek:

Can anyone who works for Etihad confirm this, or am I just misreading some of the previous posts?
Cheers

K.E

This is all rumour at the moment - nothing has been released so no one can confirm anything sorry.

I would hate to be an EY manager - we are never happy. I know it is not perfect, but please tell us what they should be doing if you have suggestions??

Guys asked for faster progression to the A330 so the company introduced A320/A330 MFF AS WELL AS the ongoing A330 transfers. But we not happy because there is not enough 330 flying. Surely some is better than none - or should they have left it as it was?

Now we have complained about the upgrade policy and according to this thread, it is about to be changed to make upgrades on the A320 in seniority like a "legacy carrier", but we are not happy with that either.

Someone said the managers and training department should figure out how to do this, but it seems to me that they are trying to, but no matter what they do are criticized.

It would seem if they make the 320 guys happy they will p..s off the 330/340 & 777 guys and if they make them happy they p..s off the 320 guys. Is there an equitable solution? Please share if you have ideas.

Sandpit

All new hires start on the 320 and available upgrades are awarded via seniority. That's pretty much how it works at the majority of major airlines in the world. They can save money by hiring directly into the 777/340 etc but those savings are lost when all the pilots who feel they have been lied to resign and go elsewhere.

Well Jambowambo you can take my 0.02 with good intentions or otherwise... remember command is about maturity as much as it is about everything else.. hopefully the thread has wound you up and its not your usual self talking...

All you widebody guys trying to defend the training cost theory to justify the current upgrade policy theory are making me laugh!!! We all get your point that you want to jump directly from RHS to LHS and keep your butts in the big plane without experiencing the tuk tuk.....

First of all, Is EY that tight on their training budget? Quality of training makes the reputation of an airline. We're already getting the bare minimum in terms of training. So no need to lower the bar even more.

Second of all, for guys coming from 330/340 background. it doesn't cost that much more to transition to the 320. Maybe 1 or 2 sims more than a 320 rated guy. That's the beauty of Airbus, we're just a big happy family!!!!

Last but not least. Everybody has been lied to when joining EY so tough **** for all of us..... Now let's move on and start again on healthy bases and new FAIR rules for everybody. I understand ther will never be pilots brotherhood in this part of the world, but 320 guys have been shafted more than anybody else in this company and they deserve some fair treatment.

removeb4flight,

you seem to have taken my post in a different meaning.

I am by no means at all against fleet transfer airbus - boeing - airbus - etc etc. And I think that in general it makes sense for the company to do the upgrades on the 320 and I most definitely think the existing 320 guys deserve their chance to move onto new fleets.

My point was that considering particularly in the case of a 777 FO going to do his upgrade on 320 he has to do a full transition course onto type which is about 8 sims, then another 8 sims for command, then a new FO will be transferred from say 320/330/340 to 777 requiring another block of sims plus then a new recruit - further sim even if already rated 320. So maybe that would come to approx 30 sims in total as opposed to perhaps 8 if you just moved a 777 guy right to left.

The entire point of my post is I don't think that the company will sustain this entire process, even if it is logical and fair, as from what I have heard the sims are already working fairly close to capacity and they are already limited on command upgrades to 4 a month due restrictions in training capacity and that is based on transferring from right to left on the same type of aircraft.

I guess if they buy sim time from external companies this problem could be solved. I don't believe it to be a money issue particularly and that is not something I care about either!

Happy landings!

What do you mean? You guys are not allowed to drink alcohol? Not allowed to go to Dubai? Not allowed to go out at night and find a nice good looking girl?

Training and sim time is the cost of doing business at an airline. Do you think Lufthansa, Air France, United, etc upgrade people out of seniority from the right seat to the left seat on the 777/747 in order to save money and sim time? If they can run an airline properly then so can EY. If EY mgt really cared about training costs then they wouldn't be spending hundreds of millions of dirhams on over 150+ cadets, many of whom are expats and contribute nothing to the emiratization process. What does each cadet cost from start to finish? I would guess it's at least a million AED.

Laker,
Easy goes there matey......Those expat cadets/second officers you refer to are bonded to Etihad for 5 years from the date of their final line check and have to pay back to Ey almost half a million dirhams.......so yes they are very lucky to be where they are, but they are far from being on the gravy train.

Laker, you have pilots at Cathay complaining cadets aren't costing the company enough, you have pilots in Europe complaining cadets are paying to put them out of a job. I guess you do not see how new pilots t&c's directly affect yours do you?:ugh:

You both entirely misunderstood the purpose of my post. The cadets don't bother me in the least. What I was pointing out was that Etihad has deep pockets when it comes to training and consequently should not be claiming that they can't afford to upgrade by seniority. A few extra sim sessions to train a bus FO to become a 777 CA will not break the bank. Just a drop in the bucket when you consider the amount of money EY is spending elsewhere in the training department.

Reading comprehension fellas.....

Point taken!:)

Right on
 

RED Z 3 you said it perfectly. You maybe my new hero:ok:

Everyone seems to have skipped over the little chestnut of Cadet's as S/O's. One Captain, One F/O and Two S/O's on ULR flights (just like QF and others) will halve the number of F/O's and Capt's required on those ULR's with a corresponding reduction in the number of upgrades and fleet transfers :{

Even if all 320 guys were given 330 ratings at minimal training cost over the next year or so, this would make things much better. If I got a LON, BRU and FRA and the rest 320 every month I would have no complaints! The problem is guys are doing a 330 line check and then back to the 320 solid!

I actually enjoy the 320 flying, just not the poor times I'm doing the the Job. 2or3 night flights and then a 0055 local rep for KWI, followed by 2 days of 0730 local reps is just VERY TIRING and does need to change!

Overall I'm happy but management need to make the rosters and career progression more fair for all (320,330,340 & 777).

Lets hope we get through this because the future at EY could be bright with light at the end of the tunnel, just hope its not a train!

Safe Flying!

"I actually enjoy the 320 flying, just not the poor times I'm doing the the Job. 2or3 night flights and then a 0055 local rep for KWI, followed by 2 days of 0730 local reps is just VERY TIRING and does need to change! "


"guys, no worries no more 3 nights in a row".... just 3 nights in 4 days (or 4 nights in 5 days for captains): thats much better!!

i.e.: not just very tiring but VERY UNSAFE.
:=

New Career Progression - the TRUTH