Another fine example of the bottom of the barrel individuals that can slip through the cracks and why the DEC option is a bad idea. Yikes.

DECs
 

Whilst I understand the frustration and ill feeling from current EK FOs waiting there turn for Command and seeing DECs filling the posts dont forget__________

When you eventually leave EK as an experienced Captain (most eventually do) will you be applying and accepting a FOs position with a new company?.

As unfortunate as it is it is called market forces and no one can blame DECs apllying.

Im with your thinking but but think ahead!!

Ps I have not applied to EK :ok:

Too bitter and twisted to think ahead!
 

I am sure all those FO'S whinging about DEC's would not market themselves as Captains in the future if/when they decide to leave EK...that would be blatant hypocrisy wouldn't it!!!:ok:

On My upgrade there were only 2 guys out of 16 with less than 10,000 hours. One was a cadet. All but 4 had had a command before.

Most DEC programs are at airlines with low hours F/O's and there is a need for some perceived experience.

This is not the case at emirates where you need 4000 hrs total including 2000 jet to join as an F/o.
Now most guys with that sort of experience are commanders (LCC) or senior F/o's at their current airline.
The DEC policy is wrong. It's a cost saving exercise. When you join as a DEC you will experience Emirates cost neutral style and then bitch about it.
If you are out of work then I see why you would come but we have guys that have retired from BA on a fat pension just to make it tax free, including management.
Most F/o's don't hold anything against the DEC's, except when they are incompetent and or arrogant, which unfortunately they often are (Both)

Several Dec's have downgraded to F/o whilst none or nearly none of the upgraded F/o's have.
Anybody fancy taking-off over Max takeoff Weight deliberately today?
One of MANY examples I’ve seen on ULR trips.


Billy

One more thing
 

The reason we need DEC's now is because of the DEC policy.
Goma as you say why would anybody join as a F/o if you know that you will jumped by the DEC's.
Why not stay where you are, get the hours and then if you still want to come, come as a DEC. So not many F/o's are joining and our current f/o's can't be upgraded because there is nobody to replace them. We need Captains.... answer get more DEC's. It will only get worse.

Emirates don't see this. They should make a statement that there will be No more DEC's and then maybe the guys will come as f/o's and people can be upgraded.Will they no. Why
It's a reactive airline not a proactive airline when it comes to staff.

Billy

As was said above, Emirates does not need DEC's, there are enough capable FO's who can upgrade.:ok:

The only reason these W**kers do it is because in the SHORT term it saves money.... actually no it doesn't save money in the short term because most of the DEC's require additional training.:mad:

But hey, why care about company morale, who gives a s*it about that:ugh:

EK need piloits, thats it. If they cant get enough F/O's then DEC's. Right now the few extra Capt's on the bus come from within, upgrades pushed back because everyone telling their mates DONT come. The result is a larger number of F/O's reguire more training due to there back ground. The other issue is a hugh increase in extra taining / failures on the 777 upgrade, quick fix delay the 777 upgrade and back fill with DEC's, company could care less about your upgarde compared to getting airplane's in the air ( read record profits)

For the record, any FO posting here and complaining about DEC's knew full well what the policy was when they joined.

They will also, no doubt, be the first in the line should a better DEC opportunity present itself. Perhaps they will decline opportunities where they deem the advertising airline has "no need for perceived experience".

I'm not a proponent of the DEC policy either, but I do find it rather droll to hear the same old drivel about those nasty DEC's when the plantiff was fully aware of the incumbent policy.

One for the DEC's, could we cut the complaints about the rostering. Catching the long snake to the bottom of the rung was also a known quantity. Fortunately you have a rotating bid system.

swish266
 

Mr Swish,
My Dear Chap, you underestimate me!

The only way we will be flying together will be on a Line Check or SIM evaluation MATE! I'm sure the Flight Training Scheduler will also be able to roster you with a

Quote:

---

F--ker from Oz

---

(or 2 :E) . As they are notoriously thorough in assessing Flying skills. Also rest assured that all my Colleagues in the Training Department will be VERY thoroughly examining your superior C.R.M. skills (as we do with ALL DEC's) before we allow you to fly our new shiny Jets with our underserving F/O's, especially the

Quote:

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overexperienced

---

ones.

You see my Eastern Friend, it is not just F/O's that are unhappy with the whole DEC philosophy and it's associated Policies (and PROBLEMS). ;)

Wee one,

Yep mate. There are guys around with this experience level. Just not enough command time +55T and there you go...
Some guys are pretty desperate to come here. But at least they join the cue at the end.

I heard that after the numerous downgrades of DECs they decided to throw the DEC thing overboard...

Seems to me that the problem is some individuals from a country with +1B population in near Asia cooking these brilliant plannings for our fleets. Nobody second guesses them and they got it wrong AGAIN..... Sorry for the ones being shafted....

oooh I love these Dilbert cartoons.....

There would be no need to come to Dubai as a DEC if the sheckels were better. Truth is the F/O new joiner money + 9% isnt up to what most guys with 8000 hrs 3000 cmd are leaving behind.

So why come at all? Very good question. Actually an agonisingly good one. The LCC / short haul envirnoment isn't one you can survive indefinately. Its one big gamble, but count me in anyway.

The DEC route is the only option where the money at day 1 is ok. The F/O route is the more practical and may I suggest moral.....I'm coming as a F/O, and sorry to repeat myself again but the money isn't wonderful. From what I can see Emirates does not need DEC's, but they are handy and cheap and quick. Accountants like handy, cheap and quick. One other thing I think most have missed here, as far as I know the UAE and Dubai are not democracies, niether is Emirates Airlines. So if you take the gamble, like me you gotta be prepared to loose.

I havent joined yet and I know lots of guys with lots of command time to add to their new wide bodied time. This should equal wide body capt.

For fellas who threaten DECs with their threats of EK trainers having long memories, well what goes around comes around. There are DECs who will become TREs/TRIs and they too can extract their pounds of flesh. Sheesh, the cheek of some..........:ugh:

DEC's recruitment is here to stay - the quote attributed to TCAS was that he'd rather have a DEC who'd flown nothing bigger and newer than a DC9 than upgrade an existing F/O, coz it's cheaper.

Never mind the quality, feel the width...

Thats what she said...

Geragau,

I'm a DEC, and I thought Swish266 had that coming!!

Geragau. The post was directed at Swish only and not all DEC’s. He was out of order and it was not a threat just a little bit of education.

Mr Staynes is correct with perspective on SOME not all Dec’s.
The policy is wrong and we blame the company.
You wouldn’t be too happy if Emirates now decided that they can’t get enough DEC’s so they start all the new DEC’s on higher pay and put them at the top of the seniority list. It could happen and I would like to read your posts then, so don’t have a go at us for being upset.
Not only F/o’s are upset by the Dec thing.
If you are DEC and have come with an attitude then we blame you. If you are normal and professional most guys won’t have a problem with you. Still doesn’t make it right.
Billy

DEC's
 

Billy you are SPOT ON :ok: I couldn't agree more.

Well said! :D

Do you guys think anyone cares if you "blame" them. Give me a break.

If I were to leave EK for a job somewhere else as a DEC, the last thing on my mind would be if a f/o would accept me. It would be more of a question if I accept them.

I know, I know, someone is going to say CRM. Go ahead, who cares.

7

757 No unfortunately I don’t think they do care. (The ones with the bad attitude) My opinion and that is all I can give, is that they should care.
My point to the DEC’s is, think about it.
Is it really that long since you were an F/o?
How would you feel if you were an F/o that has been delayed by you?
Would you like to fly with Mr Swish? Even if he only means half of what says. (Fun, Fun ,Fun!!)
Then with ULR flights you might well get that pleasure.

Respect people and they will respect you.

I think you answered your own question about CRM!!!!!

I knew it. Wasn't long before someone implied that my CRM was not up to snuff. Any time someone has an opinion, another someone brings up that old CRM trump card. := I got news for ya, the captain always has the ace. :E

7

757 you implied it! CRM Who cares??

Do you enjoy flying single pilot?
Have you ever been wrong or made a mistake? It's a team sport.
Get over yourself!

I know, I know in your world CRM stands for Captains Right Mate!!!

And nothing will change your mind.
Shame

Billy

Airbus757 (split personality maybe?)

Mate, you may hold the ace but with your attitude you'll be playing solitare with it.

Harry

Billy your posts are concise, clear and insightful.

A few points that some individuals keep bringing up in favour of the DEC policy, prove that these same individuals argue by use of mistruths.

For example, most pilots who leave EK would seek a DEC position elsewhere even though they argue against the policy at EK. NO KIDDING, you simpletons!
The difference is that EK has put in writing the progression of pilots within the company. Eligible F/O's FIRST. Then accelerated command types. Then DEC's. The company HAS NEVER RUN OUT OF ELIGIBLE F/O's in my time here.

Other companies offering DEC positions have historically REQUIRED DEC's and they make NO pretense otherwise. So accepting a DEC position at Korean for example, is not at all the same as accepting a DEC position at EK.

There is one truth though, that those hired recently SHOULD have known the tendency of this company, even though the company states in writing that DEC's will be a last resort.

The truth of the matter is that the beginning of the DEC policy simply increased the chances that DEC's might be required in the future because most prospective pilots who noticed this, would decline offers as an F/O. The fact is, that the recent delays to upgrades have nothing to do with a lack of eligible F/O's, but everything to do with a lack of resources to carry out the normal upgrades.
Is that the fault of F/O's? Clearly not.

The DEC policy is simply in place to save money and resources. Nothing more. Anyone who argues otherwise does not know the facts or is trying to justify jumping the queue. (or perhaps is just an idiot)

Sadly, most DEC's are painted with the same brush as these morons. I have a suspicion the policy would still be controversial but not so hated, if not for the minority of idiots who put all DEC's in a bad light.

I still believe the DEC policy is NOT COST EFFECTIVE when taking into account all factors. I cannot prove this belief but when taking into account the resultant loss of suitable F/O applicants, the hit on morale, the loss of pilots, and the bizarre behaviour of the minority of DEC's, it surely outweighs the short term cost savings.

Long term thinking, with respect to the welfare of employees, is not exactly the strong point of this company.

Snicker...

7

Seniority and our Profession
 

The seniority system or percieved entitlement to, has not helped our profession nor our families. It shackles people to companies and jobs they might otherwise leave. It has turned lives into misery, ( 20 year first officers in the USA), and pitted one professional against another. ( This forum ). Other professions bring in new people, ( law firms, accounting firms, medical firms ) train them, and then when the leaders of the firm decide they are prepared, they are made a partner. Once at this level, they are free to trade their experience and knowledge on the open market for the benefit of themselves and their families. Having been allowed that opportunity in the piloting profession has enabled many a Captain from EK to return home, or live closer to their preferred choice of domicile. Imagine the opportunity around the world if a pilot could apply for a job and not have to start as a new-hire. Unfortunately, like the lawyer who is bar certified and a partner, the doctor who is a specialist in his field and a partner, and the accountant who is a CPA and a partner, there will always be some measure or level of qualification in every profession that others will recognize and value. In our profession it happens to be the title of Captain, and what you fly and where you fly it;not unlike a lawyer who specilizes in criminal law in a big city. With the lack of new entrants into our profession over the past 5-10 years, the demand for "Captains" around the world will only increase, much to our benefit. Luckily for EK pilots, the company is growing and making "new" Captains monthly. They fly big airplanes around the world,adding to the resume, and ultimately bringing greater opportunity world-wide for them and their families.....a very enviable situation to be in.:ok:

All of you pilots are missing the point. Why should I have to wait one single day in the right seat so some pilot can come in and jumped me and others? Why can't they upgrade me? Am I undesirable? NO! I was in the US and would had to wait 10 plus years to upgrade. Why should anyone come into my airline and jump ahead of me. That smacks of discrimation and also disenfranchisment (US terms).
Companies having pilots jump the queue (Europe term) does nothing but screw the pilots in the long run. Why does a airline have to raise its pay and conditions when they can bring in some scum (you know the word I am looking for) who is happy to work for the money the airline is paying.