Emirates announces flights to Los Angeles
 

http://www.ameinfo.com/149905.html

Oh whoopee another ball-breaker to put on the avoid list. I somehow can't muster the same enthusiasm that the corporate PR machine is oozing. Any bets on 24 hr layover?:yuk:

Pretty safe bet, IMHO.

Think of all the money they'll save in the six months - or two years - it will take to "study" the fatigue profiles of the crews on the flight. Then another two years while they test out the company-approved sleep patterns for crews.

Of course, 24H MAX.....and more ASR :D

Dxb Lax
 

26 hours layover, it's on the cc portal.

Company approved rest patterns.

Doesnt that involve waking up and the mention of taking CAFFEINE just before you start operating??:ugh:Quite tempted to post those recommended EK rest patterns to show you im not joking when they mention CAFFEINE as part of the EK company approved ULR pattern just before operating to keep your alert levels up!!

Oh what about the prescribed approved usage of sleeping pills mandated by the company because CC could not get the proper rest they required to operate safely.

Need i go on!!:eek:

Simple answer is bid to avoid, I have not done a single ULR flight and won't because of the totally inadequate rest facilities on the aircraft and the inadequate rest at the other end.

Avoid, Avoid , Avoid!!!!!!!

Push 2....

Max 'avoid' loading on two of the horror ports for this month's bid, and three guesses what two ports I got trips to....

Wow,26 hour layover. Deduct the disembarkation of pax of the plane,the walk through LAX,the drive during traffic in L.A. and you will be lucky if there is 23hours left of the layover.:mad:

What would everyone consider an acceptable layover time for the ULR trips ? And why ?

You must be from EK mismanagment!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:

A simple search on pprune (try fatigue....) or even on google will lead you to many scientific research from the highest competent bodies. Just start with the one from NASA and finish with some findings of the NTSB.

But as always the morons from EK think they know better and start their own new invention of the wheel. Needless to say they end up with a camel hump and in a sectarian self induction become even proud of it.

The basic answer to your question is.....
After a ULR duty:
It takes at least two sleep cycles to get adequate rest to be fit for duty. It takes three regular meals to bring the stomach into synch. It takes a quiet environement for the sleep rest. It takes a possibilty for a adequate hot meal at any time during rest (see above). It takes horizontal AND upright and seated rest periods on a return ULR-flight. It takes a normal work atmosphere to counteract adequately fatigue related concentration symptoms during business hours (this means that your work environement should not be compromised by others resting, chatting or eating behind your back). ULR flights should not be prone to overduty and such overduty must be strictly limited by regulation and this limit must be strictly enforced (a guideline is 10% of block maximum).

Now put this into a regular IAH or future LAX flight and you can see that EK scratches almost each and every well researched and founded finding right from the outline.

Guys from the mismanagement:
Do never come back with such stupid questions again, it's only exposing your blatant incompetence and complete disregard of basic human factors.:yuk:

Go enjoy the beach .....

Roster Change, GMDS pretty well covers most of the points at issue. I can vouch for the fact that I'm in no fit state to start duty on a return ULR flight after only one day's break from the previous ULR flight. Virtually every member of the crew turns up for duty having been unable to sleep before the flight, and very few manage to get any meaningful sleep during the whole layover. (Most collapse into bed on arrival, only to wake [if they're lucky] a couple of hours later, and that's all the sleep they get for the whole layover.) The crew that have to operate for the first part of the sector really suffer. (One positive: the crew that takes first rest have absolutely no problem getting to sleep!)

The rules even spell it out clearly - any crewmember rostered for a ULR flight must be acclimatized, (i.e., two local night's rest) before commening duty. However, EK convenientely (mis)interprets this to read "before a ULR pattern", and has the crew operate the 16+ hour return flight after only 24 hours break from the outboud 16+ hour flight.

Another point, the importance of which cannot be overstated is the need for SITTING as well as horizontal rest. It's just not possible to "rest on demand" and get any semblance of quality rest in a claustrophic bunk - where the ceiling is too low to even sit up in the bunk - at 9.00 am "head time", and where geting from your "rest" area to a toilet involves a major exercise - where you often as not have to line up for quite some time to use the toilet, unless you want to walk the whole length of the aircraft (if you can get past the food carts blocking the aisles).

And after that, you can forget getting your head back into any semblance of "rest".

Half way home on the return sector of my last ULR flight, neither the FO nor I could work out where our body clocks were at.

The question I have to ask is why are people not going sick for the return flight, if you are not fit to fly it is your duty under the FOM and CARS not to operate the flight. I know this is a bit simplistic, but it is a fact. Park a aircraft in Houston a few times a week and the layover will soon change

Alot of talk about the inadequacies of rest and the safety factor. But my friends, where are the ASR reports. Either no one is submitting them, or they are leaving them out on the weekly safety "blog".:confused:

GMDS, kindly answer my original question please. How long do YOU calculate the layover time should be, say in LAX, with a DXB-LAX block time of 16:30, based upon the calculations in your excellent original reply.

In my humble opinion:
Flights covering a time difference of more than 7 hours or in excess of 14 hours flight time, should be followed by a minimum rest of 36 hours. Such a rest period should be untouchable by daily irregularities. As I mentioned, the FDP-extension discretion on ULR should not be allowed to exceed 10% of the total duty, in our case this comes close to 2 hours. Add this to the rest, plus a cushion of unforeseen delay at the arrival airport (customs, traffic) and you end up with some 40 hours as a sound planning base for scheduling rest after ULR flights.

Another example of blatant disregard for safety due to a shortage of crew:(

Roster Change, consider this situation, that happened on a very recent Houston flight: one of the FOs was from a South American country that always rings the chimes of US Customs (that place where the drug cartels rule the roost).

From his experience with USC in New york, he knows he'll be delayed clearing Customs, so he scoots off the aircraft as soon as possible to minimise the delay for the rest of the crew.

(Remember, this is immediately after an almost 18 hour flight duty period and 1.30 a.m. Dubai time.)

After the rest of the crew have cleared Customs, there is still no sign of him. They wait... and wait, until the ground staff asure the captain that they will see the missing FO gets separate transport to the hotel.

After four hours in Customs, or 5.30 a.m. Dubai time, the FO is released and only then starts his journey to the crew hotel.

What state do you think he was in by the time he got to the hotel, and do you think you'd be ready for another 17 hour back of the clock crew duty with only eighteen hours in the hotel?

Holdups, thankfully not usually as long as this, are an everyday occurrence for many EK crew whenever they enter the US, purely because they have a name similar to someone on a US hit list, or just because of the country they come from.

The press in the US is very powerful.
What if one of us just "forwarded" these FCIs about rest and ULR to one of those TV stations? I believe the rest periods of all ULRs would increase significantly.
:E

The US Faa have had their palms greased they will not do anything.
There is many other long haul airlines recruiting paying better and have proper rest areas go for those.
Whats the point of the ASRs The GCAA is run by the EK boss , we are pilots not experts in fatigue management, you are given a hotel room to sleep in there is no excuse for not sleeping . The ASRs are all internal paperwork if they went to a worldwide organisation for scrutiny then things would change.
Just one Question how many guys would operate back 3 crew as is allowed from IAH if one member goes sick. Nobody in EK has the balls there is no union and nobody to protect you EK management are fully protected by the law.
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT LEAVE ................

Although in reading this thread I sympathize with you folks concerns, under FAA rules I'm pretty sure this trip is legal. In fact most of my fellow US crewmembers would prefer this same 24 hr layover as it gives them more time in their own bed and that's all they care about.

Yep, sure is, as the flight is operated with a full double FD crew.

When folks went to EK and knocked on the HR door, they asked for work....and it sure does sound like they have found it.:rolleyes:

I know JFK isn't a ULR flight, but I flew with a guy recently whose father died while he (the son) was in JFK. The captain agreed to release him so he could get home without delay and then operated back to DXB with three pilots.

For instance? I really like to hear.

Not to divert the thread but....if my Father died I certainly wouldn't be waiting for anyone to be nice enough to 'release' me.....I'd be gone.

To be more correct, 'Trader', the father was very sick when the captain told the FO he should go. He died before the son reached home.

7X7

Given that JFK is scheduled for 14:20 I think you will find that it is a ULR flight as defined in the ULR FCI

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=D...avy&MAP-STYLE=

Here's a link to the Great Circle mapper.

Interesting - don`t know if we`ll fly this route but initial track from Dubai is 354 degrees and goes close to North pole.

Now that we have the socks, when are we going to be issued with lead lined underwear ?????

Don't know about lead lined undies but bring sunscreen you will need it.:)

Quote:
we are pilots not experts in fatigue management, you are given a hotel room to sleep in there is no excuse for not sleeping .

Rabbitwear, you don't need to be an expert in fatigue management to know your rights, decide for yourself, and be responsible to yourself, your family, crew AND passengers to only operate SAFELY.
No excuse for not sleeping?? You sure you are a pilot? Do you know what's being discussed here? :eek:

Having said that, and acting responsibly as to knowing your work/fatigue patterns,
Quote:
Park a aircraft in Houston a few times a week and the layover will soon change.

Violate, why do i have a feeling you don't/never have worked for EK before? If you remember elementary school, and the good old days where teachers had a ruler and were actually ALLOWED to use on kids without being sued, well multiply that by 100 (if that makes sense), and imagine what pilots would be losing if they do something of the sort while working for EK :=........... not to mention that I've heard them give that advice (call sick) to Cabin Crew, but do they do it themselves??

Cheers!

OOOOHHHH lets all go to SIA sounds perfect.;)
On another note. It is incumbent on all the pilots that do ULR especially HOUSTON and soon to be LAX that if you are fatigued YOU MUST MUST MUST file those Fatigue related AIR SAFETY REPORTS. It is your professional duty to do so!!:ok:This is the only way something will eventually be done about it,:ugh: THAT and a smoking hole in the ground with an EK tail.

I'm afraid you're wrong. EK Milkshake is on the GCAA board. Gives new meaning to conflict of interest.

He got sacked.

There was a noticeably higher number of fatigue related ASR's on the IAH trip in the last report though I agree, we need every crew to submit one. Another interesting note; they were classified as MEDIUM risk which I believe is higher than previous fatigue ASR's.

This airline is run on statistics. Never mind that some running it don't know the first thing about statistics, they do like nice pretty graphs. They will NEVER respond until there is a noticeable trend in some of their precious statistics.

Unions
 

SIA employees are lucky to have Unions..... EK (and any company in Dubai/UAE) are not even in the planning phases of those.....

They will continue to bend the rules and use the already bent, as long as we have collegues in our ranks who fly the stuff without respect for safety and even not filing ASR's ...........

DXB-JFK diversion to Baltimore. Almost 28h of duty! 27h rest, then hop on the bus to JFK and board the regular flight home, after beeing TOLD that they are legal to operate 22h!!!

We are our worst enemies. Such a flight should have never been accepted by the skippers. :ugh:

Jeeeez did that happen!..impresssive. To clear a point re 4 man vs 3 man, the ULR OP covers any flight that has the "potential" at any time of the year to exceed 14 hrs flt time. Therefor JFK, MEL, SYD.etc on every flight regardless if the flight time is <14hs on your day. But it can also be planned under the normal FTLs as well, see para 1.2 which will allow 3 man operation...but not over a planned flight time of 15hrs (para 1.8). So on the day it might be 4 man under the operational plan or 3 under FTL to a max of 15 planned flight... Cleer as mud, just how they like it.

FSM

No matter what pressure the company put on the Baltimore flight , the captains need their licences pulled from them. They exceeded a max limit intentionally and should be punished. No sympathy.

What, are u doing NATS now?

Could you just run that by me again... 28 hours of duty?
Perhaps you mean 18?