Emirates announces flights to Los Angeles
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Emirates announces flights to Los Angeles
http://www.ameinfo.com/149905.html
Oh whoopee another ball-breaker to put on the avoid list. I somehow can't muster the same enthusiasm that the corporate PR machine is oozing. Any bets on 24 hr layover?
Oh whoopee another ball-breaker to put on the avoid list. I somehow can't muster the same enthusiasm that the corporate PR machine is oozing. Any bets on 24 hr layover?
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Any bets on 24 hr layover?
Think of all the money they'll save in the six months - or two years - it will take to "study" the fatigue profiles of the crews on the flight. Then another two years while they test out the company-approved sleep patterns for crews.
Last edited by MTOW; 14th Mar 2008 at 06:26.
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Company approved rest patterns.
Doesnt that involve waking up and the mention of taking CAFFEINE just before you start operating??
Quite tempted to post those recommended EK rest patterns to show you im not joking when they mention CAFFEINE as part of the EK company approved ULR pattern just before operating to keep your alert levels up!!
Oh what about the prescribed approved usage of sleeping pills mandated by the company because CC could not get the proper rest they required to operate safely.
Need i go on!!
Doesnt that involve waking up and the mention of taking CAFFEINE just before you start operating??
Quite tempted to post those recommended EK rest patterns to show you im not joking when they mention CAFFEINE as part of the EK company approved ULR pattern just before operating to keep your alert levels up!!Oh what about the prescribed approved usage of sleeping pills mandated by the company because CC could not get the proper rest they required to operate safely.
Need i go on!!
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Simple answer is bid to avoid, I have not done a single ULR flight and won't because of the totally inadequate rest facilities on the aircraft and the inadequate rest at the other end.
Avoid, Avoid , Avoid!!!!!!!
Avoid, Avoid , Avoid!!!!!!!
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Wow,26 hour layover. Deduct the disembarkation of pax of the plane,the walk through LAX,the drive during traffic in L.A. and you will be lucky if there is 23hours left of the layover.
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What would everyone consider an acceptable layover time for the ULR trips ? And why ?
A simple search on pprune (try fatigue....) or even on google will lead you to many scientific research from the highest competent bodies. Just start with the one from NASA and finish with some findings of the NTSB.
But as always the morons from EK think they know better and start their own new invention of the wheel. Needless to say they end up with a camel hump and in a sectarian self induction become even proud of it.
The basic answer to your question is.....
After a ULR duty:
It takes at least two sleep cycles to get adequate rest to be fit for duty. It takes three regular meals to bring the stomach into synch. It takes a quiet environement for the sleep rest. It takes a possibilty for a adequate hot meal at any time during rest (see above). It takes horizontal AND upright and seated rest periods on a return ULR-flight. It takes a normal work atmosphere to counteract adequately fatigue related concentration symptoms during business hours (this means that your work environement should not be compromised by others resting, chatting or eating behind your back). ULR flights should not be prone to overduty and such overduty must be strictly limited by regulation and this limit must be strictly enforced (a guideline is 10% of block maximum).
Now put this into a regular IAH or future LAX flight and you can see that EK scratches almost each and every well researched and founded finding right from the outline.
Guys from the mismanagement:
Do never come back with such stupid questions again, it's only exposing your blatant incompetence and complete disregard of basic human factors.
Go enjoy the beach .....
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Roster Change, GMDS pretty well covers most of the points at issue. I can vouch for the fact that I'm in no fit state to start duty on a return ULR flight after only one day's break from the previous ULR flight. Virtually every member of the crew turns up for duty having been unable to sleep before the flight, and very few manage to get any meaningful sleep during the whole layover. (Most collapse into bed on arrival, only to wake [if they're lucky] a couple of hours later, and that's all the sleep they get for the whole layover.) The crew that have to operate for the first part of the sector really suffer. (One positive: the crew that takes first rest have absolutely no problem getting to sleep!)
The rules even spell it out clearly - any crewmember rostered for a ULR flight must be acclimatized, (i.e., two local night's rest) before commening duty. However, EK convenientely (mis)interprets this to read "before a ULR pattern", and has the crew operate the 16+ hour return flight after only 24 hours break from the outboud 16+ hour flight.
Another point, the importance of which cannot be overstated is the need for SITTING as well as horizontal rest. It's just not possible to "rest on demand" and get any semblance of quality rest in a claustrophic bunk - where the ceiling is too low to even sit up in the bunk - at 9.00 am "head time", and where geting from your "rest" area to a toilet involves a major exercise - where you often as not have to line up for quite some time to use the toilet, unless you want to walk the whole length of the aircraft (if you can get past the food carts blocking the aisles).
And after that, you can forget getting your head back into any semblance of "rest".
Half way home on the return sector of my last ULR flight, neither the FO nor I could work out where our body clocks were at.
The rules even spell it out clearly - any crewmember rostered for a ULR flight must be acclimatized, (i.e., two local night's rest) before commening duty. However, EK convenientely (mis)interprets this to read "before a ULR pattern", and has the crew operate the 16+ hour return flight after only 24 hours break from the outboud 16+ hour flight.
Another point, the importance of which cannot be overstated is the need for SITTING as well as horizontal rest. It's just not possible to "rest on demand" and get any semblance of quality rest in a claustrophic bunk - where the ceiling is too low to even sit up in the bunk - at 9.00 am "head time", and where geting from your "rest" area to a toilet involves a major exercise - where you often as not have to line up for quite some time to use the toilet, unless you want to walk the whole length of the aircraft (if you can get past the food carts blocking the aisles).
And after that, you can forget getting your head back into any semblance of "rest".
Half way home on the return sector of my last ULR flight, neither the FO nor I could work out where our body clocks were at.
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I can vouch for the fact that I'm in no fit state to start duty on a return ULR flight after only one day's break from the previous ULR flight. Virtually every member of the crew turns up for duty having been unable to sleep before the flight, and very few manage to get any meaningful sleep during the whole layover.
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Alot of talk about the inadequacies of rest and the safety factor. But my friends, where are the ASR reports. Either no one is submitting them, or they are leaving them out on the weekly safety "blog".
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GMDS, kindly answer my original question please. How long do YOU calculate the layover time should be, say in LAX, with a DXB-LAX block time of 16:30, based upon the calculations in your excellent original reply.
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GMDS, kindly answer my original question please. How long do YOU calculate the layover time should be, say in LAX, with a DXB-LAX block time of 16:30, based upon the calculations in your excellent original reply.
Flights covering a time difference of more than 7 hours or in excess of 14 hours flight time, should be followed by a minimum rest of 36 hours. Such a rest period should be untouchable by daily irregularities. As I mentioned, the FDP-extension discretion on ULR should not be allowed to exceed 10% of the total duty, in our case this comes close to 2 hours. Add this to the rest, plus a cushion of unforeseen delay at the arrival airport (customs, traffic) and you end up with some 40 hours as a sound planning base for scheduling rest after ULR flights.
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Roster Change, consider this situation, that happened on a very recent Houston flight: one of the FOs was from a South American country that always rings the chimes of US Customs (that place where the drug cartels rule the roost).
From his experience with USC in New york, he knows he'll be delayed clearing Customs, so he scoots off the aircraft as soon as possible to minimise the delay for the rest of the crew.
(Remember, this is immediately after an almost 18 hour flight duty period and 1.30 a.m. Dubai time.)
After the rest of the crew have cleared Customs, there is still no sign of him. They wait... and wait, until the ground staff asure the captain that they will see the missing FO gets separate transport to the hotel.
After four hours in Customs, or 5.30 a.m. Dubai time, the FO is released and only then starts his journey to the crew hotel.
What state do you think he was in by the time he got to the hotel, and do you think you'd be ready for another 17 hour back of the clock crew duty with only eighteen hours in the hotel?
Holdups, thankfully not usually as long as this, are an everyday occurrence for many EK crew whenever they enter the US, purely because they have a name similar to someone on a US hit list, or just because of the country they come from.
From his experience with USC in New york, he knows he'll be delayed clearing Customs, so he scoots off the aircraft as soon as possible to minimise the delay for the rest of the crew.
(Remember, this is immediately after an almost 18 hour flight duty period and 1.30 a.m. Dubai time.)
After the rest of the crew have cleared Customs, there is still no sign of him. They wait... and wait, until the ground staff asure the captain that they will see the missing FO gets separate transport to the hotel.
After four hours in Customs, or 5.30 a.m. Dubai time, the FO is released and only then starts his journey to the crew hotel.
What state do you think he was in by the time he got to the hotel, and do you think you'd be ready for another 17 hour back of the clock crew duty with only eighteen hours in the hotel?
Holdups, thankfully not usually as long as this, are an everyday occurrence for many EK crew whenever they enter the US, purely because they have a name similar to someone on a US hit list, or just because of the country they come from.
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The press in the US is very powerful.
What if one of us just "forwarded" these FCIs about rest and ULR to one of those TV stations? I believe the rest periods of all ULRs would increase significantly.
What if one of us just "forwarded" these FCIs about rest and ULR to one of those TV stations? I believe the rest periods of all ULRs would increase significantly.
The US Faa have had their palms greased they will not do anything.
There is many other long haul airlines recruiting paying better and have proper rest areas go for those.
Whats the point of the ASRs The GCAA is run by the EK boss , we are pilots not experts in fatigue management, you are given a hotel room to sleep in there is no excuse for not sleeping . The ASRs are all internal paperwork if they went to a worldwide organisation for scrutiny then things would change.
Just one Question how many guys would operate back 3 crew as is allowed from IAH if one member goes sick. Nobody in EK has the balls there is no union and nobody to protect you EK management are fully protected by the law.
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT LEAVE ................
There is many other long haul airlines recruiting paying better and have proper rest areas go for those.
Whats the point of the ASRs The GCAA is run by the EK boss , we are pilots not experts in fatigue management, you are given a hotel room to sleep in there is no excuse for not sleeping . The ASRs are all internal paperwork if they went to a worldwide organisation for scrutiny then things would change.
Just one Question how many guys would operate back 3 crew as is allowed from IAH if one member goes sick. Nobody in EK has the balls there is no union and nobody to protect you EK management are fully protected by the law.
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT LEAVE ................
