Silly rest periods in IAH (EK)
 

Oh well, I knew I was expecting too much when the Houston flight went daily, but at least I might have thought that the Medical dept/fatigue study group might be listened to this time.

As of next month, the IAH flights are almost daily, 17 hour block times, and 24hr layover, which includes to trip to/from the hotel which I've heard is an hour away!

Looks like TC will get his wish soon and keep us on the A/C to make this flight a turn around!:mad::mad:

Just as a matter of interest, how much time off will you have when you get back?

Loads of hours, early year when the hors run out

Some brief statistics on this little gem of a pattern;

In the 59:45 hrs TAFB, you'll be flying 55% of that time.
Total time in IAH is 24hrs:30 mins.
With travel, and no doubt the regular delays, you'll be lucky to have 20hrs in the hotel.

Supposedly there will be three days off afterwards, but my concern is the fatigue levels throughout the whole crew on the return sector, not how many days off you get after the near accident.:ugh:

At what point do AAR and TC stop taking the p#*s and start taking safety seriously? I guess next it'll be LA with 12 hrs in the hotel.

No doubt the only way to deal with this is the obligatory ASRs until the company is forced to react to it (bit like the MRU ASRs; "the FRMC is monitoring the situation, and will ignore it for as long as possible")

What is the Crew complement for flights like DXB-JFK/IAH?
Is there any crewrest in EK Aircrafts

thx in advance

Same thing I heard from some friends who have flown the IAH pattern.Absolute killer.17 hrs flight there and 15hrs back at the moment.
Perhaps some of our US pilots can speak to the FAA and voice some concerns.I must go back and make sure I have put avoid IAH on the latest bid.

that must mean you love the pairing and attempting to scare others not to bid.

32 hrs ,min TAFB work 10 days where do I sign.

give me a break

Guys, after 7 hours sleep in the bunk 24 hours layover. How much more sleep do you need? If you can't cope maybe you shouldn't fly ULR and stick to the turn arounds.

what_goes_up; -

What a puerile f*%king comment. I hope you don't feature in any serious fatigue risk management committee. :ugh:

At best, you have a shallow understanding of what ULR fatigue is all about. It's certainly not only about time in an aircraft bunk.

Mate

I'm doing it for years now, so I know exactly what I am talking about.

But no worries, I am in no committee. Couldn't stand to work for sissies who'd rather get a 8-5 job.

what goes up

Do you know that there's no difference if you sleep in the bunk, sleep on passenger seat or working walking s*itting or pi**ing, you still in the aircraft for 17 hours???? And just fyi not everybody can sleep in bunk.. and for people who can stay in the bunk for 7 hours.. they really amazed me.

next time let your mouth say the comment (close to your brain if you have one ).. not from your a** hole.

Well, that is not the company's problem but yours. If you cannot do it and you feel too tired to do your duty, get a job where you do not have to rest in flight.

That is where aviation is going. Either you learn to prepare for a ULR flight to be tired at the right time and be able to get at least some sleep or you fly for LoCo's and do up's and down's the whole day but be in bed at a convenient time.

Typical idiot comment Fatbus.You really have a good understanding of FTL's and bidding.Its because of dicks like you that airlines like EK get away with this crap.If you actually fly for a living come and join EK and I'm sure you can get as many of these flights as you like.Cant wait to see you fit your months flying into 10 days.

Guys,

Personally, I don't mind these rotations as I can sleep quite well in the bunk. Having said that however, I must agree that this rotation is an absolute disgrace! It's not because I can sleep well, that the rest of my crew will be able to do the same thing. Also, the comment that you must avoid it then is quite silly, because there is no guarantee that you won't receive the pairing when avoiding it. I guess some of the previous suggestions are worth looking into: write ASR's, contact the FAA if you are American and let the (aviation) world know that this pairing is just too much...

MR8

Dune , been doing it a lot longer than you .Just get over it , you don't have to bid those trips if you don't want to . FYI I do and enjoy the time off.
And as someone else said that is the way aviation is going , if you don't like it don't do it ,you have choices, stop bitching like girly man . Most of the guys on my street like the ULR 's


Just to add , Dune , where you here when we did the Moscow turns? I was and did the month in 8 days- Sun and Tues . Oh ya that was when the weekend was thrus and fri, but I'm sure you knew that.

I remember doing the slingshot to HKG.I also remember how nice it was living at Chicago Beach.Whats doing return Moscows with 3 pilots got to do with it.How many hours did you actually do in the 8 days flying that allowed you to have the rest of the month off.How many of the guys in your street like done the IAH flight.You must live in that street with all the guys from the insomniac's association.

you asked how to get you flying done in 1o days , that was 80 in 8, sleep on a IAH is easy, SYD and MEL on the bus was a harder pairing than IAH

Am I the only one who thinks fatbus and what goes up are rather misguided to say the least.I for one cannot believe the cr p coming out of them!!

Personally I have been flying ULR with several other airlines long before EK even got out of the gulf area and I can tell you EK have got it all wrong.

Bunks far fron the flight deck,no firm policy on use of seats in the cabin(other airlines block 2 J class seats for the heavy crews),short layovers,insufficient rest on return,the list is almost endless.

Yes its good hours etc etc but in terms of ones health and sustainability its dangerous.

Its gonna be hard to avoid these trips now as most guys I talk to are not really interested in doing them.Wouldnt it have been nice to have some dialouge with mangemnet over these trips before we started them.We have lots of experience out there who have done this type of flying for years.:ugh:

Over and out

EK has been conducting ULR for about 10s in the scheme of things. Unless you've done it for at least ten years of your career then I reckon you're blowing smoke out of your bum. I love the idea of doing all my flying on long trips so I can get the time off but the way EK does it is both unprofessional and immature and the people that agree with these policies reflect that.
All these wheels have been invented. There is no innovation in this stuff just bent machinery.

Been doing this ULR stuff since 1990 so no smoke there!:)

quite agree with the comments about EK s policy on this type of flying being immature and unproffesional.But think most of us have been in EK long enough to know that our view points dont matter that much or at all.

Suppose all we can do is bid or not for these trips as we see fit just like any other part of the roster.

But guys please do not think that these 24 layover trips are what this type of flying is all about.The poor guys who get the short end of the stick who have to rest first in a dark tube for 7 hours when departing at 08 30 am are the ones who feel the pain the most.

As for the comment previously about not being able to sleep in the bunk is not the companys problem.I see it as partly there fault.As per my previous post no seats available in the cabin and claustrphobic and I would imagine rather unhygenic bunks are all part of the problem.Ohh for the original boeing designed crew rest compartment.

rather rushed post sorry for the grammar, of for a curry
:\
Over and out

Cheers

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9946/planexv3.png

as it should be.......:ugh:

Gee Fatbus sounds like a hell roster.Was that 8 Moscows in a row to do 80 hours in 8 days?I'm suprised thats legal.Especially when you are so senior.You
must have been bottom bid.

Dear managers

Yes, i mean you TC, AAR, AS and ED, as well as the so called "doctors" of our clinic (and you nice office cushion warmers, once you are nicely installed, around 9:30am and reading pprune, with the next coffee for the boss, please bring along this letter instead of posing as a happy pilot).

As long as you have not accompanied us on a 211 enlarging crew, trying to sleep at 10am, eating whenever the understaffed cc can hand you a delicious crew-meal, drinking the recommended 3 litres throughout the flight, then queing in economy with zillions of fine pax from the subcontinent doing their monthly hygiene in our toilets, trying then to make it back to the cockpit, trying again to get some rest in the noisy hotel, doing the same thing back just 24 hours later, while at every manoeuver joining us in the cockpit and completing a simple tetris-game on your fancy blackberry and getting scared s##tless about your performance at the end of the flight .......
then getting well deserved little days off and doing a beatiful 203 accompaning a cabin crew with all her functions and rest possibilites and at the end of the flight still smiling politely at any silly pax request .....
As long as you have not demonstrated such a solidarity act, anything coming out of your feathers must be discarded as junk mail, as it has no relevance to us.

Get real, you KNOW it's unsafe

All pilots should go to the American Embassy and ask to have there US visa cancelled. Then tell the company you will not be able to fly us flights and have no intention of doing so until the rest period is increased. Remember its your ass is you screw up, the company will not protect you, as far as they are concerned they are running a legal operation.
Is it possibble to publish the ULH rules from proper airlines to compare with EK, maybe then we can approach the FAA and GCAA and ask why EK has a big discrepancy with other carriers.
Also the newspapers may like to publish the comparison for the passengers benefit.

fatbus, can I be allowed a guess at your non-proone name? Could it be "Life of ...." followed by "nautical ....." ?

Whatever it is, you're certainly not a line pilot.

------

Oh, and SOPS... I have to agree that the Boeing Crew Rest Area you so kindly put into your post for everyone to see is superb. It's just a pity that that the crew rest EK provides for its tech crew bears absolutely no resemblance to that, and nor is it positioned anywhere near the front of the aircraft. Picture the AFT torpedo stowage of a World War One submarine built for Lilliputians and you might get some idea of the EK model.

Very accurate description - and take note of that "AFT" word. Crazy decision, that one, utterly crazy.

Just my 5 fils worth again...

It may be all well and good for the few people who can get suitable rest for 7 hours in a cramped bunk at 10am. Good on you, but I'm pretty sure you're in the minority. Think about the rest of crew. I'm guessing but suspect perhaps 80% of the rest of the crew don't achieve anywhere near that much rest.I personally am lucky to get 2 to 3 hours rest, regardless of the time of the day. And what about the cabin crew? 1st class crew may be lucky to get a good break, but the rest normally get about 4 hours total. And they're working bloody hard on those sectors. The passengers seem like they haven't eaten in days!

So essentially, you may be well rested, but you're probably surrounded by other crew members on the brink of making some fatigue induced mistakes. Are you happy with that?

I remember when we used to do the SIN-SYD-SIN slingshot. Night both ways, 12hrs rest at the noisy SYD airport hotel during the day. (as usual, EK exemption to break the 10hrs flight time in 24hrs rule) On departure from SYD, when I hit the TOGA buttons, there was an almighty crash in the front galley..someone had forgotten to secure one of the trolleys..crockery all over the floor. Almost caused a reject. Many other small errors on that particular flight put down to fatigue.

I'm afraid simply stating that you can cope, (and therefore that everyone else is a whimp), certainly doesn't promote the interests of CRM, passenger safety and flight safely in general.

The rest facilities for pilots on EK777s are sub-standard, disrespectful and quite frankly are a '**** you' to the pilots from the company.
Having said that whining on prune about it is unlikely to get any results (irrespective of whether management actually read these threads or not). In the absence of any representative group to make a collective approach to the company it is up to the individual to write and/or speak with management to voice your concerns.
Ultimately if you are one of those who cannot get rest it becomes a matter of flight safety.
As a minimum we should have 2 business class seats blocked for our use on ULR flights.

To all the heroes who can achieve decent levels of rest in the Boing crew rest, you must be superhuman and far superior to the rest of us mere mortals.

This IAH pattern will lead to a serious incident, unless we get a minimum of 48hrs+ off in IAH. I have done the GRU once, and that was enough, i cannot get up at 6am local (dxb), get on the plane, go straight into the most uncomfortable bunks, and achieve any sort of decent rest. It is simply not possible, and if your telling me you can, BS.

The original forward bunks were junked by EK, because TC wanted the First Class suites to have headroom, and a feeling of space. They have achieved the latter at the expense of safety. The rear 777 bunks are crap, uncomfortable, you have to lie down, the noise is bad, you cannot watch the TV for more than an hour, your neck hurts. Read a book, forget it, not feasible :yuk: I don't mind JFK's, they are just about do able, but any further, no thanks with current conditions. I will be filing ASR' s every IAH, GRU, f**k em.:ugh::ugh:

EGGW

Well, TCs greed might have f##cked him up anyway. With the bunk in the rear there is no way EK can ever operate with only one captain and two fos for shorter trips. I know they tried, but it is illegal according GCAA. So they need to block 1 F or two C seats. A loss both ways, salary wise or pax wise. How easy and finally cheaper would it have been to buy the aircraft as it was initially designed.....
Sure enough they might convince the incompetent local talent for a exemption one day, but that will be the straw to brake their favorite camels back. I don't think that any sane captain will accept rest so far away, and if any foreign regulator gets a sniff of it, this might do it for once. Or even they lose face.

You should write to management but it doesn't do much good. In their response they ridicule you and suggest all you're after is an easy ride.

If that's the case, EK don't know about it (or are ignoring it). They're selling all FC seats on Perth flights if they put an aircraft on the service that has crew rest. (Perth flights operate with one captain and two FOs.) I know of one of the senior captains who was met with this situation who told them to unsell one seat or he wasn't going. Luckily, some of the FC pax were staff upgrades, so it didn't filter up as far as I'm sure it would have if he'd have had a real FC passenger downgraded.

Nagoya, Osaka also one skipper, 2 F/O's with crew bunks at the back on 345:ouch: Don't know where the illegality is? Do you have a reference to the GCAA regs GMDS just out of interest?

Yes, there is a FCI or some other publication regarding this, can't actually pinpoint it. No crewbunk away from the cockpit is accepted. There has to be a seat right behind the cockpit, either 1F or 2C seats.
I'll try to find the instruction, others might confirm this, as it makes ample sense. At least we should enforce this, i certainly will.
I'll try to enquire with GCAA.

Has anybody noticed in the FCI regarding "Generic ULR Ops" that it states that the crew will be acclimatized before any ULR flight? If you think about it, that's what the rest of the industry does. EK has chosen to interpret "flight" to mean "pairing". If they followed their own rules, we would have a minimum of 48 hours for IAH and GRU.

Looks like the 777ER bunks really suck. TC wins once more. Thanks all the tech guys, you sold the pilots down the river again.

The 345 bunks are pretty good thankfully. Wonder what they are going to be like on the 380? Heard they are down the back, anyone know more?

For the 380, hammocks.

They were good enough for the lower ranks in Admiral Nelson's days. I believe TC got the idea after watching Russell Crowe in 'Master and Commander'.

He concluded that if crews who'd spent the night sleeping in such conditions for months on end could defeat the Fench in the southern Indian Ocean, his crews could fly across the same ocean resting in the same style of bed.

Cheaper - and lighter - too, so less fuel uplift.

7X7,

Bravo! LMFAO! You have summed up the corporate culture brilliantly.:ok:

OJ

Careful 1011
 

Yes the A345 Captain's bunk is better than the B777 but be careful not to fall into the carefully prepared trap. The position of the bunk has been an issue with Airbus guys, especially when the crew complement is 1 Captain and 2 F/Os. Just because it's better than the B777 rest doesn't fix the problem and you run the risk of agreeing that something less than ideal becomes the norm because of the even more woeful state of new rest facilities. This could then have a knock-on effect for future aircraft fit-outs.

Just a thought: has anyone had any official 'yeah or nay' from the likes of Patricia et al about utilising first class (or even biz) seats if they are not sold? Just curious. I have sat in the cabin on both JFK and GRU flights (when trying to sleep was futile) but the cabincrew seem to be under the impression that they are not to be utilised and seem less than keen on the idea.