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EK pilot shortage admitted by TC

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EK pilot shortage admitted by TC

Old 13th Apr 2018, 11:39
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Originally Posted by fliion View Post
Yes itís been proposed by many a manager who has passed through the system only to be shot down.

This time itís different - the Freighter contract (I use that word loosely) - was a dip in the water.

I donít believe they have any other choice now - but pride over logic usually prevails in these parts.
Asking as a curious outsider, what are the main reasons EK has previously had against commuting contracts?
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 12:38
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Originally Posted by Smoke mountain View Post
Let's be realistic chaps,
Companies are taking advantage of that and ripping people of with Type rating and line training packages.
Yes they should offer line training packages...charge say $150/hr for the 777 and $12.50/hr(negotiable) for the 380 .

Originally Posted by pilotflyingrocks View Post
Asking as a curious outsider, what are the main reasons EK has previously had against commuting contracts?
They want the money spent in Dubai...get half the salary back into the Dubai economy rather than lose 100perc of it being spent overseas. Thats why off shore bases will NEVER happen.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 13:08
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They want the money spent in Dubai...get half the salary back into the Dubai economy rather than lose 100perc of it being spent overseas. Thats why off shore bases will NEVER happen.[/QUOTE]

There are approx 4000 pilots in Emirates, lets say half of them (2000) are interested in a commuting contract and will spend approx 4000 Euros less then their colleagues a month inside UAE it makes it around 96 million Euros per year, sure a lot of money but there are 2,5 million residents and god knows how many tourists! (less than 0,1% of the population are the 2000 pilots we are talking about) a piss in Mississippi! Just imagine how much money they are loosing by not having enough pilots and CC? They are stupid and proud thats it!
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 13:54
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Many years ago a British business advising company was paid a considerable sum, for what must have been several minutes of work, that proved based pilots would be a huge cost and lost flexibility rather than non based pilots. These findings have also been used to avoid commuting contracts.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 14:59
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Maybe that same company, for an even more considerable sum, could spend a few more seconds of its invaluable work to prove that a lack of pilots could be an equally huge cost and even more lost flexibility.

But in this region it would cry for a culprit, so .....
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 16:00
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Originally Posted by glofish View Post
Maybe that same company, for an even more considerable sum, could spend a few more seconds of its invaluable work to prove that a lack of pilots could be an equally huge cost and even more lost flexibility.

But in this region it would cry for a culprit, so .....
One of the biggest 'obstacles' to basings, particularly in Europe, USA, Aus/NZ is that EK could well find itself bound by local Labor laws. It has happened to Cathay in Paris and, in a smaller and slightly different way, to EK already in Japan.

There is no way imho, even in light of the desperate crew shortages that EK now faces, that basings will ever be seriously considered.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 16:31
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On top of local labor rules there is the most strong of undercurrents, jealousy.

If we can't live away from here, why should you?

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Old 13th Apr 2018, 16:34
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Basings - no, agreed.

But legally the Freighter contract is a template that they are obviously comfortable with. Itís not an overseas base, purely days off.

Just tweak it. Firm seat r/t, and less days on ratio.

Plenty of takers.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 16:50
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People have to stop thinking basings. As mentioned the freighter is a good template. That being said don't expect much from STC. Funny how no one that knows someone who know s someone who claims to know the profit share .
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 20:15
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As others have already said it, it does not need to be a "base" with all what that means, reverse roster is not illegal is it? (anybody with more info on this?)
Chinese do it all the time! Or at least a good roster, 10 on 7 off or something like that with confirmed tickets or at least be able to use the jumpseat. They would be covered with pilots like Justin Bieber is with teenage girls!
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 13:29
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doesnt have to be "basing", just reverse rostering...
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 13:55
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Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
doesnt have to be "basing", just reverse rostering...
In theory, yes. But the way these things tend to go is that, first, the relevant tax authority decides you are resident for tax purposes and, secondly, there is resistance to the reverse rostering system by, and representation from, other unionised airlines who feel that their members jobs, terms, conditions and benefits are at risk of being undercut by non union airlines operating from within their country - even though it may be called reverse rostering.

Before you know where you are, either an employee has decided to try to claim the protection of the local labor laws, or other airline union representation has forced the reverse rostering practice to be cancelled.

The only airline I know that seems to make a success of it is Korean who, correct me if I am wrong, pay your Korean tax for you. As income in UAE is still (for the moment) tax free, there is likely to be a substantial tax burden on reverse rostered bases and people who pay tax tend to demand representation.
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 14:13
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There's room for that in the actual conditions, without the feared basings.

- Get back to 75h as OT baseline
- Include a new request for 75, 85 or 95 hours rostering. Up to 85 a nice OT compensation, up to 95 a huge OT comp.
- Take out the punitive restriction on consecutive days off and include a request to group d/o with remaining leave ( e.g. 7 + 5).

With this possibility, you might see a lot of pilots who previously moaned when rostered 95h wishing for that, because it pays well, and less pressing 2, because it will be self requested. At the same time others will wish for 75h and group d/o+l and be able to go home and be happy as well. This may change on a monthly base and granted according seniority.

This mix might even attenuate the actual lack of noses, but most certainly reduce the attrition.

It all comes down to have some competent guys come up with an intelligent solution.

(unfortunately therein lies the main problem at EK ... )
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 14:43
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Originally Posted by glofish View Post
There's room for that in the actual conditions, without the feared basings.

- Get back to 75h as OT baseline
- Include a new request for 75, 85 or 95 hours rostering. Up to 85 a nice OT compensation, up to 95 a huge OT comp.
- Take out the punitive restriction on consecutive days off and include a request to group d/o with remaining leave ( e.g. 7 + 5).

With this possibility, you might see a lot of pilots who previously moaned when rostered 95h wishing for that, because it pays well, and less pressing 2, because it will be self requested. At the same time others will wish for 75h and group d/o+l and be able to go home and be happy as well. This may change on a monthly base and granted according seniority.

This mix might even attenuate the actual lack of noses, but most certainly reduce the attrition.

It all comes down to have some competent guys come up with an intelligent solution.

(unfortunately therein lies the main problem at EK ... )
Totally agree. Unfortunately, I also have to agree with your last sentence.
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 17:57
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Originally Posted by BANANASBANANAS View Post
Totally agree. Unfortunately, I also have to agree with your last sentence.
This is the problem with a discussion like this, in the end everybody has their own agenda. That's why a union is so important because it unites individual agenda's into coherent, considered and reasonable solution's for the company to work with.

Last edited by polax52; 15th Apr 2018 at 03:52.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 03:37
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Originally Posted by polax52 View Post
This is the problem with a discussion like this, in the end everybody has their own agenda. That's why a union is so important because unites individual agenda's into coherent, considered and reasonable solution's for the company to work with.
There will never be a union in UAE.

The closest you might get is some form of Emirates Pilots Association which can liaise with the company but there would never be any negotiation. And the company would take all the positive spin from such a situation by advertising how enlightened and employee aware they are, while giving absolutely nothing back.

Its the same when you get a call asking you to work on your day off. If you are daft enough to agree, EK logs all the data and next time they want a FTL Annex Variation they go to the GCAA and say 'How can we have a fatigue problem? Our pilots are fit to fly on days off!'
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 04:17
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This is the problem with a discussion like this, in the end everybody has their own agenda
Sure, that's human nature. But that's exactly what i meant with intelligent solutions. In my raw, off the hip and "just to say" proposition i at least have already outlined two agendas that could complement each other.

One thing is for sure: The local mentality does not know what win-win effectively means. They really believe that if someone else wins only a tiny little bit, it must have been taken away from their own win.

Stupidity is the last thing that gets extinct.

Last edited by glofish; 15th Apr 2018 at 10:11.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 11:11
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Originally Posted by BANANASBANANAS View Post
In theory, yes. But the way these things tend to go is that, first, the relevant tax authority decides you are resident for tax purposes and, secondly, there is resistance to the reverse rostering system by, and representation from, other unionised airlines who feel that their members jobs, terms, conditions and benefits are at risk of being undercut by non union airlines operating from within their country - even though it may be called reverse rostering.

Before you know where you are, either an employee has decided to try to claim the protection of the local labor laws, or other airline union representation has forced the reverse rostering practice to be cancelled.

The only airline I know that seems to make a success of it is Korean who, correct me if I am wrong, pay your Korean tax for you. As income in UAE is still (for the moment) tax free, there is likely to be a substantial tax burden on reverse rostered bases and people who pay tax tend to demand representation.
Reverse rostering is nothing more than offering extended layovers, as ones base remains unchanged. There is no change to ones employment terms and conditions nor protection (or lack of) from any union. Taxation affairs will still be up to the individual to declare and it is very feasible that one may not live in the same country where they end or start their reversed pairing anyway.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 09:24
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Originally Posted by Emma Royds View Post
Reverse rostering is nothing more than offering extended layovers, as ones base remains unchanged. There is no change to ones employment terms and conditions nor protection (or lack of) from any union. Taxation affairs will still be up to the individual to declare and it is very feasible that one may not live in the same country where they end or start their reversed pairing anyway.
yeah, that's what I thought...
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 10:55
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I guess it comes down to where your reserve rostered 'base' is and what the financial and other factors might be.

Certainly can work in theory.
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