Comments on fatique
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Comments on fatique
Just thought as fatique is now a bigger issue in the media to open a new thread.
Any comments on fatique and the FRSM ?
Let me start with my own experience about 3 years ago on the mini bus:
Roster was published with several combined duties all night turns to the subcontinent.
On questioning the DCPA on how to manage this roster without getting fatique
his answer was that this rostering practice is scientifically profen to be good for pilots. On asking who did the study no answer was given.
I then did a personal investigation and found after the MEL accident a guy called
Martin Roskind who was in charge of telling the Australian CAA that fatique was not an issue. I found this guy and gave him my roster and guess he told me that he is not related to our airline any more and that he is no longer involved.
I flew the roster as long as I could but then called in sick fatique.Filled the form and a few days later got a warning letter from DCPA stating that I was planning of being fatique.
Pathetic!
Any comments on fatique and the FRSM ?
Let me start with my own experience about 3 years ago on the mini bus:
Roster was published with several combined duties all night turns to the subcontinent.
On questioning the DCPA on how to manage this roster without getting fatique
his answer was that this rostering practice is scientifically profen to be good for pilots. On asking who did the study no answer was given.
I then did a personal investigation and found after the MEL accident a guy called
Martin Roskind who was in charge of telling the Australian CAA that fatique was not an issue. I found this guy and gave him my roster and guess he told me that he is not related to our airline any more and that he is no longer involved.
I flew the roster as long as I could but then called in sick fatique.Filled the form and a few days later got a warning letter from DCPA stating that I was planning of being fatique.
Pathetic!
Last edited by Talparc; 23rd Mar 2016 at 15:19.
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What happens is a company employs an expert to assess their FRMS and rostering practices, who comes in and say's "you got to be kidding, this is not clever" (obviously couched in much more politically correct terminology). The company than for the next dozen years or so states, well we got Dr Sleepexpert in who is a world authority on fatigue to look at our roster system and he see's no problems, in fact he thinks we are at the cutting edge of rostering best practice. Also we have this shiny FRMS that ticks all the right regulatory boxes, so vee haff a full scientic model to show you are not even remotely fatigued and are a lazy pilot, here, take a warning letter and go and cower in the corner.
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Interesting articles, but not really something new to aviation in general. Even in Europe there are more then enough "black Sheep" around that push their pilots to the limit. Some European Authorities are "easier" on violations then others(hell not, I will not call names now). Pilots accept that, report it, go on, change the company if not improving at all. Sometimes, if the airline pushed to far, the authority steps in, might even close the place down.
What really amuses me is that everyone who decides to go down to the ME is well aware that the Aviation Authority is never independent.
Human rights do not exist. Work laws do not exist, if they exist they are subject to change as the person in charge desires.
I think we all agree that pilots choosing(and considering) going down there (should) know that.
Yes, they change your roster, I had once 23 changes in one month with QR, each working day one. Of course you are exhausted. But hoping that they will change their system as long as they can hire tons of pilots, why would they? Young pilots nowadays pay to fly 500 hours on an airliner just to get that job. And of course this people are then #1 candidates to go down there as well.
I am afraid you will not change the ME, or at least it will take some other 40 years to change their mind.
What happens now in EK and FlyDubai happened before in other airlines down there as well. It is a sideeffect of uncontrolled growth and high turnaround of pilots.
European and other authorities(or VC ^^) have not really anything in hand to go against the GCAA. If they discover serious misconduct within the airline they might put EK or FlyDubai on the Blacklist preventing them to operate into the EU. But we know that this is never going to happen.
The point is - most went there for the money, did not like their current employer anymore or simple because they needed a job.
If it is that bad down there then leave them, at the moment enough other airlines look for Airbus/Boeing Widebody pilots. The problem is - they might not be better then what you have down there. Workwise. Let's not talk about money.
But honestly, hoping that someone "makes" them to become nice again, I don't think that will work out.
What really amuses me is that everyone who decides to go down to the ME is well aware that the Aviation Authority is never independent.
Human rights do not exist. Work laws do not exist, if they exist they are subject to change as the person in charge desires.
I think we all agree that pilots choosing(and considering) going down there (should) know that.
Yes, they change your roster, I had once 23 changes in one month with QR, each working day one. Of course you are exhausted. But hoping that they will change their system as long as they can hire tons of pilots, why would they? Young pilots nowadays pay to fly 500 hours on an airliner just to get that job. And of course this people are then #1 candidates to go down there as well.
I am afraid you will not change the ME, or at least it will take some other 40 years to change their mind.
What happens now in EK and FlyDubai happened before in other airlines down there as well. It is a sideeffect of uncontrolled growth and high turnaround of pilots.
European and other authorities(or VC ^^) have not really anything in hand to go against the GCAA. If they discover serious misconduct within the airline they might put EK or FlyDubai on the Blacklist preventing them to operate into the EU. But we know that this is never going to happen.
The point is - most went there for the money, did not like their current employer anymore or simple because they needed a job.
If it is that bad down there then leave them, at the moment enough other airlines look for Airbus/Boeing Widebody pilots. The problem is - they might not be better then what you have down there. Workwise. Let's not talk about money.
But honestly, hoping that someone "makes" them to become nice again, I don't think that will work out.
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Lot of Pilots (perhaps Middle East Airlines excluded) get a little confused with the F word and the S word = sleepiness and the need to sleep. Fatigue is long term, Sleepiness is i'm banjaxed on this run of flying.
One of the biggest issues for Pilots is that airlines are now using scheduling systems with fatigue models attached to them. They check the roster and if it's below the "limit" whatever that is = the roster is legal. One such system is the Boeing Alertness Model for example. The main issue is these systems don't have data. The system should be set up for the specific airline not Airline X. Crews should be completing diary and wearing motion watches so the data is validated.
A lot more work needs doing we can only hope some good will come out of tragedy
One of the biggest issues for Pilots is that airlines are now using scheduling systems with fatigue models attached to them. They check the roster and if it's below the "limit" whatever that is = the roster is legal. One such system is the Boeing Alertness Model for example. The main issue is these systems don't have data. The system should be set up for the specific airline not Airline X. Crews should be completing diary and wearing motion watches so the data is validated.
A lot more work needs doing we can only hope some good will come out of tragedy
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Does the model take into account your 6 month old baby or your loud neighbors?
The solution is easy. Pay a much lower basic salary but pay a **** load in flight pay and leave it up to the pilots to decide if they are safe to fly. And allow pilots to call in sick or fatigued whenever they please, with no penalties or requirements for evidence.
The problem right now is that the basic pay + 60/70 hours vs 90 hours is not enough of a difference for guys to really care about the extra 20/30 hours vs. the extra time off. Its called opportunity cost, how much do you value your free time vs. extra flight pay? Once you've bagged around 70 hours the extra 20 isn't worth the flight pay over the rest, the rest if more important. A really high flight pay would make guys think hard if they are fatigued, but at the same time would mean that guys who really do need the rest would actually call in fatigued or tired or whatever.
Added to this would be serious consequences for guys who show up for work in an unacceptable state for the pay. Once the culture of knowing when to call fatigued is understood the company will be confident that their pilots are not kidding around when they call in fatigued or tired, because not flying will become a lot more expensive for the pilots. At the same time with the policy of taking a guy at his word there's no excuse if a guy shows up in a condition unfit to fly an aeroplane, penalties should be harsh and rightly so.
It would work. The work force will police itself and the company can throw away their fatigue reporting system. After a while the company will easily be able to identify how many hours its pilots are willing to fly, and see trends in pilots reporting fatigued. Rosters can be adjusted accordingly.
The solution is easy. Pay a much lower basic salary but pay a **** load in flight pay and leave it up to the pilots to decide if they are safe to fly. And allow pilots to call in sick or fatigued whenever they please, with no penalties or requirements for evidence.
The problem right now is that the basic pay + 60/70 hours vs 90 hours is not enough of a difference for guys to really care about the extra 20/30 hours vs. the extra time off. Its called opportunity cost, how much do you value your free time vs. extra flight pay? Once you've bagged around 70 hours the extra 20 isn't worth the flight pay over the rest, the rest if more important. A really high flight pay would make guys think hard if they are fatigued, but at the same time would mean that guys who really do need the rest would actually call in fatigued or tired or whatever.
Added to this would be serious consequences for guys who show up for work in an unacceptable state for the pay. Once the culture of knowing when to call fatigued is understood the company will be confident that their pilots are not kidding around when they call in fatigued or tired, because not flying will become a lot more expensive for the pilots. At the same time with the policy of taking a guy at his word there's no excuse if a guy shows up in a condition unfit to fly an aeroplane, penalties should be harsh and rightly so.
It would work. The work force will police itself and the company can throw away their fatigue reporting system. After a while the company will easily be able to identify how many hours its pilots are willing to fly, and see trends in pilots reporting fatigued. Rosters can be adjusted accordingly.
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Airmann- with all due respect that is absolutely absurd!You would have pilots flying fatigued because they need the money. This is where regulation is needed - both sides pilot and airlines have conflicts of interest.
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Well, as I said, the company would monitor the pilots and ensure that they were not flying fatigued.
Anyway, my airline pays overtime after we hit x hours in a one year period so rostering is put under pressure to ensure we don't exceed those hours unless absolutely necessary. Recruitment and manpower also ensure that we are staffed to ensure that overtime is not common.
I also agree it's not necessarily hours much you fly but also the manner in which they schedule you. Constant changes between day and night flights is a killer. Short haul pilots need a routine. X days flying followed by X off, something that can be relied on.
Anyway, my airline pays overtime after we hit x hours in a one year period so rostering is put under pressure to ensure we don't exceed those hours unless absolutely necessary. Recruitment and manpower also ensure that we are staffed to ensure that overtime is not common.
I also agree it's not necessarily hours much you fly but also the manner in which they schedule you. Constant changes between day and night flights is a killer. Short haul pilots need a routine. X days flying followed by X off, something that can be relied on.
I remember when the A345 started doing ULR. My neighbours were bragging of doing 120+ hours a month, through open time, and how much money they were making.
I questioned then how sustainable it was.
But with a fixed grin and glassy eyes staring into the distance right through me.....But l'm making so much money!
halas
I questioned then how sustainable it was.
But with a fixed grin and glassy eyes staring into the distance right through me.....But l'm making so much money!
halas
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Pilots will sell their soul for cash!
Why not introduce a bid for 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 hours?
Logically enough they'd have to up the overtime pay which should set in at 80h.
The individual can then decide if he needs a slow month or if he wants to make money.
I bet that the manning problem will ease just as the fatigue issue will.
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I don't think that pilots are THAT greedy for cash. I think that eventually when it's difficult to even get out of bed or to keep your eyes open while driving to work you will call in fatigued. If you as a pilot are not responsible enough to do that then you are not responsible enough to fly a plane with passengers on board. In which case there's a much bigger problem at hand. It's just that in the system I propose guys wouldn't call in for trivial reasons. Which is the fear airlines have right now, which is the reason things work the way they do.
As for guys flying for money, just make sure that pilots are being monitored for fatigue and make sure that there are stern penalties if you show up for work just for the money, when you should be recovering.
The current system has pilots afraid to call fatigued or even sick because they fear that the company won't believe them and point fingers back at them. So they end up flying when they are not 100%. The system I propose will switch it around so guys are afraid to NOT call in fatigued. Once you instil the culture into the company there are checks and balances to ensure it works.
Firstly, monitoring for fatigue and promoting a culture where showing up for work seriously fatigued is considered irresponsible and in many ways disgraceful (as fatigued pilots add an incredible burden on the guy they are flying with, and are a threat to themselves and to their passengers) this will ensure pilots call in fatigued or sick when they actually are. Secondly management will be content in knowing that due to the high flight pay guys will not call in fatigued unless absolutely necessary because there's too much to lose, keeping that side happy. And lastly rostering and manpower will be forced to ensure that rosters are such that the potential for fatigue is minimized through proper manpower levels as too many guys calling in fatigued is a serious strain on the system. This could easily be worked out between scheduling and HR.
Other things could be added to the system of course but that's the idea. Now no one can blame the company for a fatigued pilot. And pilots have no one to blame but themselves. Especially if scheduling gets things right, which is obviously part of a properly functioning system.
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As for guys flying for money, just make sure that pilots are being monitored for fatigue and make sure that there are stern penalties if you show up for work just for the money, when you should be recovering.
Sensible limits are all that will work. Current FTL's are illogical and dangerous. Fix them and aviation will be safe. Link them to money and there will be many more accidents.
The proposal is a classic example of what not to do.
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Airmann, that is essentially what RYR do, and it means that most cannot afford to go sick, regardless of how ill or tired they are. It's a terrible idea. As for the company making sure pilots don't report unfit, they already have that responsibility, along with us, so why would it suddenly become more effective?
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To me, the definitions and defining differences between being tired and fatigued are clear.
Tiredness means that you can have a good sleep and feel readily mentally and physically refreshed.
Fatigue means that you sleep and when you wake you still have a mental haziness like a 2 day hangover and a physical lethargy like you ran a marathon the day before. No matter what rest you have had recently, fatigue is still present. Pilots ARE flying fatigued and micro napping at the controls during critical stages of flight!
Sadly pilots state fatigue and want more money and I agree, more money is the answer!! The more the salary increases, the more pilots will come and ease the pressure on those currently flying.
J
Tiredness means that you can have a good sleep and feel readily mentally and physically refreshed.
Fatigue means that you sleep and when you wake you still have a mental haziness like a 2 day hangover and a physical lethargy like you ran a marathon the day before. No matter what rest you have had recently, fatigue is still present. Pilots ARE flying fatigued and micro napping at the controls during critical stages of flight!
Sadly pilots state fatigue and want more money and I agree, more money is the answer!! The more the salary increases, the more pilots will come and ease the pressure on those currently flying.
J