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If you'd like to swap DESDI for LAM...

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

If you'd like to swap DESDI for LAM...

Old 7th Jan 2016, 11:31
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,040
Panther88

It's horses for courses matey. WK is only highlighting what many may forget and only realise when it's too late. Why do you think the short haul command time is so quick? It's because many are leaving SH for LH and some even giving up commands to go right seat B777/747/380. Doing 5 days in a row commute into work for 3-4 sector days, shitty weather, tight turns and obtrusive 55 year old cabin crew with better contractual hours than the pilots might become tiresome after a while. As will be the pitiful 2.70 an hour flight pay! Then there's the thorny issue of where to live? Inside the M25 corridor must be a consideration for short haul and that's going to cost you in housing...big time! Living outside is certainly possible but at least an hour there and back every day as you'll be driving in near to rush hour most occasions. Don't forget to allow for finding a parking space then bus to terminal 5 then a nice train and walk to the aircraft itself. As for grievance procedures, would that really be a reason to leave if you've never had to face the wrath of fleet? If you do your job right, can't see why it would even be a factor.

It will work for some, no doubt about it, but this could well be a classic case of grass being greener and people really need to way up the options and long term benefits before they jump ship. The current work rate here is unsustainable for sure as is the policy of throwing in increased hours during our leave months and not allowing credit for sim and other duties. However, BA is not without it's own issues and is certainly NOT the Company it was 20 years ago. Even 747 guys are pushing 90 hours some months. Finally, salary. After tax and NI has taken a chunk from your hard earned basic, and 1% for the Union, you'll be left with far less than you'd hoped for. They pay well but compared to a take home salary here? Not even close. A 25 year seniority guy, currently TRE on B747 takes home around 9500 after deductions. A normal line captain with 9 years command using housing allowance will clear several grand more than that every month. Add in education allowance if they wanted to send the kids to UK boarding school and the numbers become even more preferable here.

As I said before, I'll be surprised if any more than 30 leave here to go to BA within the next 12 months. I'm not defending staying here, merely trying to highlight that it might not be the golden ticket many seek. Hopefully the BA recruitment team will be able to give a fuller picture to those attending.

Either way, good luck to all in your future decisions.

Harry

Last edited by harry the cod; 7th Jan 2016 at 14:03.
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Old 7th Jan 2016, 22:55
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: dxb
Posts: 71
So?
Down route myself, was expecting some comments from people who attended by now? Or did you all end up in rock bottom afterward?
VLS with ice is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2016, 13:06
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: England
Posts: 39
Had a look

Ok, so I went along and listened to what was on offer. Quite a wide range of experience in the room, but pretty soon became apparent that they are after the young blades.

Started off with a nice chumley warner chat about the difference between the middle east and the UK. Might have been useful for anyone who has never been to the UK, but was largely pointless for most in the room. Then progressed onto a run through the fleets and rosters, followed by the pay and staff travel.

It's F/O positions only and you go in at year one pay along with the spotty 18 year olds. They are offering about 4000-4500 / month after tax (including flight pay ). The T's and C's are pretty impressive as you might expect, in particular the control you have over your roster and therefore your life. Even as a junior F/O you can manage your roster ( especially long haul ) so that you work when you want to, even to the extent that its possible to have as much as 35 days off in a row if you play it right. Obviously you would have to build up a credit of worked hours to do this but auto trip swaps, overtime and leave are all easily managed on line with no need to contact crewing.

Most of the BA recruitment team where very nice open down to earth people, there was one knob who just had to remind us that the success rate is only 10%, " we don't take anyone ". He also managed to look completely surprised to be asked if BA would be flying successful applicants to London for the tests and interviews. ( the answer was no ). Also, there is absolutely no credit given to previous experience as far as your entry pay (and ) I imagine bond is concerned. You will do a short course type rating if already flying any Airbus or the 777.

Apparently there is a holding pool already but experienced bods will bypass it. Short haul minibus commands are up for grabs within 3 years of joining.

So, in summary, if you are happy to be dialled back to zero but want to be treated with a bit of respect and retake control of your life, go for it.

For us crusties, ( and I was not expecting anything else ) its a no go unless you really have had enough and can take a 70% pay cut.

Good luck to all.
BS

Last edited by Basic Service; 8th Jan 2016 at 13:08. Reason: Spelling!
Basic Service is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2016, 14:44
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,044
The pay might look as a cut, but the years of life you will save are priceless.
And .....

a bit of respect and retake control of your life
It's called dignity

That's exactly what i miss in my FO's eyes at EK. All i see is humiliation.
That's what gives them the kick in the bounty castle!

If i had the age, i'd be out right away.
glofish is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2016, 15:57
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: just around the corner
Posts: 125
How old is too old

Originally Posted by glofish View Post
The pay might look as a cut, but the years of life you will save are priceless.
And .....



It's called dignity

That's exactly what i miss in my FO's eyes at EK. All i see is humiliation.
That's what gives them the kick in the bounty castle!

If i had the age, i'd be out right away.
You rock is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2016, 18:17
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Knoteatingham
Posts: 829
I got an email from BA responding to exactly that question. They are interested in pilots up to age 58 (fifty eight).

If you want a Direct Command BA City Flyer are now advertising for Captains on the E135 based at London City.
BANANASBANANAS is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2016, 21:35
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
The T's and C's are pretty impressive as you might expect, in particular the control you have over your roster and therefore your life. Even as a junior F/O you can manage your roster ( especially long haul ) so that you work when you want to, even to the extent that its possible to have as much as 35 days off in a row if you play it right. Obviously you would have to build up a credit of worked hours to do this but auto trip swaps, overtime and leave are all easily managed on line with no need to contact crewing.
A slightly rose tinted version from the recruitment team. Thanks to EASA FTLs, Roster Assign, 'Closed' days and Bidline alleviations pretty much everything in that paragraph is ancient history. As a junior FO you'll work when the company wants you to work, which will be every weekend, and you won't be able to swap those trips to weekday trips (or any other) because the company have restricted the software swap functionality. You'll need to contact crewing for anything other than direct swaps between crew members and don't expect anyone to answer the phone. Same goes for leave swaps/changes. You can't build up any credited hours until you're senior enough to get a trip line (plan on 5 years in long haul), and then you can't cash them in because if you leave a big enough gap the company will Roster Assign a trip in there for you. You can however cash those hours in by dropping a trip and picking it straight up at overtime at about 87% of your normal hourly rate.

Still, at least it's in the UK.

PS There are no bonds. Short haul minibus commands will only be three years at LGW, there won't be a repeat of this years junior LHR anomaly as all the people who thought there was no point in bidding for it now know otherwise
Carnage Matey! is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 05:15
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
Posts: 379
Thumbs up

Thanks Carnage.

Good to see that it's not only the EK recruitment team that can put positive spin on things.
Eau de Boeing is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 05:59
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 207
Sounds like

a) if you're young enough and the time to command doesn't bother you

or

b) If you want to live near Gatwick and work short haul

its a no brainer.


Otherwise you have to be pretty desperate to leave the ME to consider this, given the pay cut, time to command and the bad rosters for the first 5 years at least.

Having said that there are plenty of people who do seem pretty desperate.
bigdaviet is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 07:19
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Glorious nation of Kazakhstan.....great success!!!
Posts: 129
To put another perspective on it, 4500-00 per month = AED 25,000-00 (approx.) per month......... then you have to pay more tax, rent, drive, eat and play, and the U.K. isn't cheap.
bluelearjetdriver is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 07:28
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Earth
Posts: 82
.... and the bad rosters for the first 5 years at least.


Those who have flown for a Major know this isn't necessarily the case. It all depends on timing.

If you join at a time and have a lot of new joiners after you then very quickly your 'relative seniority' increases and you can bid and get what you want - weekends off, trips etc.

If however you join at the end of the pack then recruiting stops then that is the case.

And yes, bidding and getting 4 weeks off of purely XX days can and does occur in the LH system.

Otherwise you have to be pretty desperate to leave the ME to consider this, given the pay cut, time to command and the bad rosters for the first 5 years at least.
As opposed to the super fast CMDs in EK now (you join now you are looking at 8+ years in a company that doesn't want you longer than 7-10years, in a country that despite all the promotion is very much Third World) and the absolutely outstanding rostering in the Middle East?

Keep drinking the Koolaid bigdaviet
keepitrealok is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 08:21
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: St James' Park
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by bluelearjetdriver View Post
To put another perspective on it, 4500-00 per month = AED 25,000-00 (approx.) per month......... then you have to pay more tax, rent, drive, eat and play, and the U.K. isn't cheap.
The 4500 is net, so there's no 'more tax' on that figure

Rent/mortgage is dramatically less than that in Dubai; for what you're paying 3k/mth in Dubai you'd pay 1k/mth in South London. So even though FO to FO looks like a 50% pay cut on paper, the gap in disposable income quickly narrows after housing costs

Drive - yes petrol is a lot more expensive in the UK, however the 5x increase in cost is, in my opinion, healthy balanced out by the 5x safer roads and drivers who know how to use lanes properly

Eat and play - I can't think of one thing that isn't at least 1/3 cheaper

Yes the UK isn't the cheapest place to live, but it's certainly more affordable than Dubai and when you go through costing, the pay leaves you about the same to spend on eating and playing as you put it.
And if you don't want to live in London, move to Ireland, Scotland, Spain, Italy, Holland etc etc and commute which is easy to do on a long haul fleet

There will be a huge amount of pilots applying, good luck to them and we can only hope this is the final straw for EK management to sit up and listen.

The biggest pull factor BA has for me is you can live near to Selhurst Park and watch the best standard of football in England.

Alan
AlanPardew is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 09:09
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 767
Alan as an alternative you can hop on to the underground to Upton Park (and in the near future Stratford) and watch a little genius by the name of Dimitri Payet ;-)
RexBanner is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 09:13
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: St James' Park
Posts: 77
I have been watching West Ham a lot recently, monitoring your Nobles, your Carrolls even Ginger Collins in case I get the England job before the Euro's and have to prepare for Wales.

Now back to aviation before we're warned we're on guard mate

Alan
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 09:21
  #55 (permalink)  
Kapitanleutnant
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You guys ever heard the word, "Intangible"?

There are some things regards to getting away from the ME that you can't really put a pound/euro/dollar figure on.... like having a simple lifestyle that certainly EK does not really allow most pilot to have the way you'd have one in the UK at BA, nor the protections of both gov't laws and labour laws, of which the UAE generally lacks compared to the UK. No matter the salary at BA, how does one put a price tag on those factors? You simply can't.

It's not just about "if you like flying shorthaul out of LGW, its a no brainer". Far, far more than that!

I have to agree with the comment about someone drinking the cool-aid. Wow... Maybe that person is stuck at EK with no chance to go anywhere and is forced to drink that foul tasting cool-aid. I don't know....

Leaving the ME to another position whether it be flying, non-flying or retirement is an enlightening feeling. After less than a month with a current employer, it is simply shocking to me what i had put up with for so long... it truly did feel like being released.... and I come back to the ME section here on occasion to see that it's actually gotten worse.

Everyone has a different level of tolerance and mine was crossed last year so time to move on. EK shelf life is, as one mentioned 7-10... if you can last that long with your health.

A good friend of mine on the 380 told me he was flying something like 96 hours or some such, "but they were good destinations". Well, after time, the destinations are insignificant to the level of flying those 96 hours each and every month.

Others have said before and I'll reiterate... There really is life after EK... and it truly can be a breath of fresh air.

K
 
Old 9th Jan 2016, 09:32
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
Posts: 379
And watching Palace is good for your health?!


Never forgotten Par-judas

U RZZZZZZZ!
Eau de Boeing is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 11:11
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Eau de Boeing View Post
And watching Palace is good for your health?!


Never forgotten Par-judas

U RZZZZZZZ!
A lot of spin in my opinion!

4K is a realistic Y1 take home salary. You will only reach 4.5k with no pension contributions and some overtime.

SH commands have come down, but as they said, expect a 3yr + wait as the senior guys start to bid back. Seniority is king!
In addition, if you are assigned a LH fleet you will be engagement frozen for a minimum of 5yrs and therefore unable to successfully bid for a SH command. The company will always prioritise right to left. If you want a quick command, you will have to join on SH Airbus.

Roster control is pretty much gone with the introduction of EASA, just ask those who have just had their first EASA trip line wiped. As a junior pilot life will be very tough!
If you want 35days off consecutively, good luck!
Seconds thoughts, there is the option of becoming a rep (trip line 0) and enjoying the bidding perks that way. At least one regularly enjoys this level of time off. 🙃
SkyRocket10 is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 12:08
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,006
Alan

Comparing housing is not apples to apples. EK pay for the housing. Housing with BA is out of your after taxed pocket...further decreasing buying power.
fliion is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 13:18
  #59 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Rent/mortgage is dramatically less than that in Dubai; for what you're paying 3k/mth in Dubai you'd pay 1k/mth in South London. So even though FO to FO looks like a 50% pay cut on paper, the gap in disposable income quickly narrows after housing costs
Housing (mortgage) costs in nice, non-Selhurst Parky, areas of London haven't been that low in 7-10 years. Not unless you're after a small flat or have a huge deposit for the mortgage.
Calmcavok is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2016, 15:15
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 957
Can we please ditch the myth of free housing at Emirates. If you aren't in company housing they pay you an allowance of about 14k for an F/O and 16k for a Captain. THAT is what your free housing is costing you every month.

It is Emirates. Nothing is free.
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