If you'd like to swap DESDI for LAM...
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Panther88
It's horses for courses matey. WK is only highlighting what many may forget and only realise when it's too late. Why do you think the short haul command time is so quick? It's because many are leaving SH for LH and some even giving up commands to go right seat B777/747/380. Doing 5 days in a row commute into work for 3-4 sector days, ****ty weather, tight turns and obtrusive 55 year old cabin crew with better contractual hours than the pilots might become tiresome after a while. As will be the pitiful £2.70 an hour flight pay! Then there's the thorny issue of where to live? Inside the M25 corridor must be a consideration for short haul and that's going to cost you in housing...big time! Living outside is certainly possible but at least an hour there and back every day as you'll be driving in near to rush hour most occasions. Don't forget to allow for finding a parking space then bus to terminal 5 then a nice train and walk to the aircraft itself. As for grievance procedures, would that really be a reason to leave if you've never had to face the wrath of fleet? If you do your job right, can't see why it would even be a factor.
It will work for some, no doubt about it, but this could well be a classic case of grass being greener and people really need to way up the options and long term benefits before they jump ship. The current work rate here is unsustainable for sure as is the policy of throwing in increased hours during our leave months and not allowing credit for sim and other duties. However, BA is not without it's own issues and is certainly NOT the Company it was 20 years ago. Even 747 guys are pushing 90 hours some months. Finally, salary. After tax and NI has taken a chunk from your hard earned basic, and 1% for the Union, you'll be left with far less than you'd hoped for. They pay well but compared to a take home salary here? Not even close. A 25 year seniority guy, currently TRE on B747 takes home around £9500 after deductions. A normal line captain with 9 years command using housing allowance will clear several grand more than that every month. Add in education allowance if they wanted to send the kids to UK boarding school and the numbers become even more preferable here.
As I said before, I'll be surprised if any more than 30 leave here to go to BA within the next 12 months. I'm not defending staying here, merely trying to highlight that it might not be the golden ticket many seek. Hopefully the BA recruitment team will be able to give a fuller picture to those attending.
Either way, good luck to all in your future decisions.
Harry
It's horses for courses matey. WK is only highlighting what many may forget and only realise when it's too late. Why do you think the short haul command time is so quick? It's because many are leaving SH for LH and some even giving up commands to go right seat B777/747/380. Doing 5 days in a row commute into work for 3-4 sector days, ****ty weather, tight turns and obtrusive 55 year old cabin crew with better contractual hours than the pilots might become tiresome after a while. As will be the pitiful £2.70 an hour flight pay! Then there's the thorny issue of where to live? Inside the M25 corridor must be a consideration for short haul and that's going to cost you in housing...big time! Living outside is certainly possible but at least an hour there and back every day as you'll be driving in near to rush hour most occasions. Don't forget to allow for finding a parking space then bus to terminal 5 then a nice train and walk to the aircraft itself. As for grievance procedures, would that really be a reason to leave if you've never had to face the wrath of fleet? If you do your job right, can't see why it would even be a factor.
It will work for some, no doubt about it, but this could well be a classic case of grass being greener and people really need to way up the options and long term benefits before they jump ship. The current work rate here is unsustainable for sure as is the policy of throwing in increased hours during our leave months and not allowing credit for sim and other duties. However, BA is not without it's own issues and is certainly NOT the Company it was 20 years ago. Even 747 guys are pushing 90 hours some months. Finally, salary. After tax and NI has taken a chunk from your hard earned basic, and 1% for the Union, you'll be left with far less than you'd hoped for. They pay well but compared to a take home salary here? Not even close. A 25 year seniority guy, currently TRE on B747 takes home around £9500 after deductions. A normal line captain with 9 years command using housing allowance will clear several grand more than that every month. Add in education allowance if they wanted to send the kids to UK boarding school and the numbers become even more preferable here.
As I said before, I'll be surprised if any more than 30 leave here to go to BA within the next 12 months. I'm not defending staying here, merely trying to highlight that it might not be the golden ticket many seek. Hopefully the BA recruitment team will be able to give a fuller picture to those attending.
Either way, good luck to all in your future decisions.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 7th Jan 2016 at 14:03.
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Had a look
Ok, so I went along and listened to what was on offer. Quite a wide range of experience in the room, but pretty soon became apparent that they are after the young blades.
Started off with a nice chumley warner chat about the difference between the middle east and the UK. Might have been useful for anyone who has never been to the UK, but was largely pointless for most in the room. Then progressed onto a run through the fleets and rosters, followed by the pay and staff travel.
It's F/O positions only and you go in at year one pay along with the spotty 18 year olds. They are offering about £4000-4500 / month after tax (including flight pay ). The T's and C's are pretty impressive as you might expect, in particular the control you have over your roster and therefore your life. Even as a junior F/O you can manage your roster ( especially long haul ) so that you work when you want to, even to the extent that its possible to have as much as 35 days off in a row if you play it right. Obviously you would have to build up a credit of worked hours to do this but auto trip swaps, overtime and leave are all easily managed on line with no need to contact crewing.
Most of the BA recruitment team where very nice open down to earth people, there was one knob who just had to remind us that the success rate is only 10%, " we don't take anyone ". He also managed to look completely surprised to be asked if BA would be flying successful applicants to London for the tests and interviews. ( the answer was no ). Also, there is absolutely no credit given to previous experience as far as your entry pay (and ) I imagine bond is concerned. You will do a short course type rating if already flying any Airbus or the 777.
Apparently there is a holding pool already but experienced bods will bypass it. Short haul minibus commands are up for grabs within 3 years of joining.
So, in summary, if you are happy to be dialled back to zero but want to be treated with a bit of respect and retake control of your life, go for it.
For us crusties, ( and I was not expecting anything else ) its a no go unless you really have had enough and can take a 70% pay cut.
Good luck to all.
BS
Started off with a nice chumley warner chat about the difference between the middle east and the UK. Might have been useful for anyone who has never been to the UK, but was largely pointless for most in the room. Then progressed onto a run through the fleets and rosters, followed by the pay and staff travel.
It's F/O positions only and you go in at year one pay along with the spotty 18 year olds. They are offering about £4000-4500 / month after tax (including flight pay ). The T's and C's are pretty impressive as you might expect, in particular the control you have over your roster and therefore your life. Even as a junior F/O you can manage your roster ( especially long haul ) so that you work when you want to, even to the extent that its possible to have as much as 35 days off in a row if you play it right. Obviously you would have to build up a credit of worked hours to do this but auto trip swaps, overtime and leave are all easily managed on line with no need to contact crewing.
Most of the BA recruitment team where very nice open down to earth people, there was one knob who just had to remind us that the success rate is only 10%, " we don't take anyone ". He also managed to look completely surprised to be asked if BA would be flying successful applicants to London for the tests and interviews. ( the answer was no ). Also, there is absolutely no credit given to previous experience as far as your entry pay (and ) I imagine bond is concerned. You will do a short course type rating if already flying any Airbus or the 777.
Apparently there is a holding pool already but experienced bods will bypass it. Short haul minibus commands are up for grabs within 3 years of joining.
So, in summary, if you are happy to be dialled back to zero but want to be treated with a bit of respect and retake control of your life, go for it.
For us crusties, ( and I was not expecting anything else ) its a no go unless you really have had enough and can take a 70% pay cut.
Good luck to all.
BS
Last edited by Basic Service; 8th Jan 2016 at 13:08. Reason: Spelling!
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The pay might look as a cut, but the years of life you will save are priceless.
And .....
It's called dignity
That's exactly what i miss in my FO's eyes at EK. All i see is humiliation.
That's what gives them the kick in the bounty castle!
If i had the age, i'd be out right away.
And .....
a bit of respect and retake control of your life
That's exactly what i miss in my FO's eyes at EK. All i see is humiliation.
That's what gives them the kick in the bounty castle!
If i had the age, i'd be out right away.
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How old is too old
The pay might look as a cut, but the years of life you will save are priceless.
And .....
It's called dignity
That's exactly what i miss in my FO's eyes at EK. All i see is humiliation.
That's what gives them the kick in the bounty castle!
If i had the age, i'd be out right away.
And .....
It's called dignity
That's exactly what i miss in my FO's eyes at EK. All i see is humiliation.
That's what gives them the kick in the bounty castle!
If i had the age, i'd be out right away.
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I got an email from BA responding to exactly that question. They are interested in pilots up to age 58 (fifty eight).
If you want a Direct Command BA City Flyer are now advertising for Captains on the E135 based at London City.
If you want a Direct Command BA City Flyer are now advertising for Captains on the E135 based at London City.
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The T's and C's are pretty impressive as you might expect, in particular the control you have over your roster and therefore your life. Even as a junior F/O you can manage your roster ( especially long haul ) so that you work when you want to, even to the extent that its possible to have as much as 35 days off in a row if you play it right. Obviously you would have to build up a credit of worked hours to do this but auto trip swaps, overtime and leave are all easily managed on line with no need to contact crewing.
Still, at least it's in the UK.
PS There are no bonds. Short haul minibus commands will only be three years at LGW, there won't be a repeat of this years junior LHR anomaly as all the people who thought there was no point in bidding for it now know otherwise
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Sounds like
a) if you're young enough and the time to command doesn't bother you
or
b) If you want to live near Gatwick and work short haul
its a no brainer.
Otherwise you have to be pretty desperate to leave the ME to consider this, given the pay cut, time to command and the bad rosters for the first 5 years at least.
Having said that there are plenty of people who do seem pretty desperate.
a) if you're young enough and the time to command doesn't bother you
or
b) If you want to live near Gatwick and work short haul
its a no brainer.
Otherwise you have to be pretty desperate to leave the ME to consider this, given the pay cut, time to command and the bad rosters for the first 5 years at least.
Having said that there are plenty of people who do seem pretty desperate.
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To put another perspective on it, £4500-00 per month = AED 25,000-00 (approx.) per month......... then you have to pay more tax, rent, drive, eat and play, and the U.K. isn't cheap.
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.... and the bad rosters for the first 5 years at least.
Those who have flown for a Major know this isn't necessarily the case. It all depends on timing.
If you join at a time and have a lot of new joiners after you then very quickly your 'relative seniority' increases and you can bid and get what you want - weekends off, trips etc.
If however you join at the end of the pack then recruiting stops then that is the case.
And yes, bidding and getting 4 weeks off of purely XX days can and does occur in the LH system.
Otherwise you have to be pretty desperate to leave the ME to consider this, given the pay cut, time to command and the bad rosters for the first 5 years at least.
Keep drinking the Koolaid bigdaviet
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Rent/mortgage is dramatically less than that in Dubai; for what you're paying £3k/mth in Dubai you'd pay £1k/mth in South London. So even though FO to FO looks like a 50% pay cut on paper, the gap in disposable income quickly narrows after housing costs
Drive - yes petrol is a lot more expensive in the UK, however the 5x increase in cost is, in my opinion, healthy balanced out by the 5x safer roads and drivers who know how to use lanes properly
Eat and play - I can't think of one thing that isn't at least 1/3 cheaper
Yes the UK isn't the cheapest place to live, but it's certainly more affordable than Dubai and when you go through costing, the pay leaves you about the same to spend on eating and playing as you put it.
And if you don't want to live in London, move to Ireland, Scotland, Spain, Italy, Holland etc etc and commute which is easy to do on a long haul fleet
There will be a huge amount of pilots applying, good luck to them and we can only hope this is the final straw for EK management to sit up and listen.
The biggest pull factor BA has for me is you can live near to Selhurst Park and watch the best standard of football in England.
Alan
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I have been watching West Ham a lot recently, monitoring your Nobles, your Carrolls even Ginger Collins in case I get the England job before the Euro's and have to prepare for Wales.
Now back to aviation before we're warned we're on guard mate
Alan
Now back to aviation before we're warned we're on guard mate
Alan
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You guys ever heard the word, "Intangible"?
There are some things regards to getting away from the ME that you can't really put a pound/euro/dollar figure on.... like having a simple lifestyle that certainly EK does not really allow most pilot to have the way you'd have one in the UK at BA, nor the protections of both gov't laws and labour laws, of which the UAE generally lacks compared to the UK. No matter the salary at BA, how does one put a price tag on those factors? You simply can't.
It's not just about "if you like flying shorthaul out of LGW, its a no brainer". Far, far more than that!
I have to agree with the comment about someone drinking the cool-aid. Wow... Maybe that person is stuck at EK with no chance to go anywhere and is forced to drink that foul tasting cool-aid. I don't know....
Leaving the ME to another position whether it be flying, non-flying or retirement is an enlightening feeling. After less than a month with a current employer, it is simply shocking to me what i had put up with for so long... it truly did feel like being released.... and I come back to the ME section here on occasion to see that it's actually gotten worse.
Everyone has a different level of tolerance and mine was crossed last year so time to move on. EK shelf life is, as one mentioned 7-10... if you can last that long with your health.
A good friend of mine on the 380 told me he was flying something like 96 hours or some such, "but they were good destinations". Well, after time, the destinations are insignificant to the level of flying those 96 hours each and every month.
Others have said before and I'll reiterate... There really is life after EK... and it truly can be a breath of fresh air.
K
There are some things regards to getting away from the ME that you can't really put a pound/euro/dollar figure on.... like having a simple lifestyle that certainly EK does not really allow most pilot to have the way you'd have one in the UK at BA, nor the protections of both gov't laws and labour laws, of which the UAE generally lacks compared to the UK. No matter the salary at BA, how does one put a price tag on those factors? You simply can't.
It's not just about "if you like flying shorthaul out of LGW, its a no brainer". Far, far more than that!
I have to agree with the comment about someone drinking the cool-aid. Wow... Maybe that person is stuck at EK with no chance to go anywhere and is forced to drink that foul tasting cool-aid. I don't know....
Leaving the ME to another position whether it be flying, non-flying or retirement is an enlightening feeling. After less than a month with a current employer, it is simply shocking to me what i had put up with for so long... it truly did feel like being released.... and I come back to the ME section here on occasion to see that it's actually gotten worse.
Everyone has a different level of tolerance and mine was crossed last year so time to move on. EK shelf life is, as one mentioned 7-10... if you can last that long with your health.
A good friend of mine on the 380 told me he was flying something like 96 hours or some such, "but they were good destinations". Well, after time, the destinations are insignificant to the level of flying those 96 hours each and every month.
Others have said before and I'll reiterate... There really is life after EK... and it truly can be a breath of fresh air.
K
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4K is a realistic Y1 take home salary. You will only reach 4.5k with no pension contributions and some overtime.
SH commands have come down, but as they said, expect a 3yr + wait as the senior guys start to bid back. Seniority is king!
In addition, if you are assigned a LH fleet you will be engagement frozen for a minimum of 5yrs and therefore unable to successfully bid for a SH command. The company will always prioritise right to left. If you want a quick command, you will have to join on SH Airbus.
Roster control is pretty much gone with the introduction of EASA, just ask those who have just had their first EASA trip line wiped. As a junior pilot life will be very tough!
If you want 35days off consecutively, good luck!
Seconds thoughts, there is the option of becoming a rep (trip line 0) and enjoying the bidding perks that way. At least one regularly enjoys this level of time off. 🙃
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Rent/mortgage is dramatically less than that in Dubai; for what you're paying £3k/mth in Dubai you'd pay £1k/mth in South London. So even though FO to FO looks like a 50% pay cut on paper, the gap in disposable income quickly narrows after housing costs
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Can we please ditch the myth of free housing at Emirates. If you aren't in company housing they pay you an allowance of about 14k for an F/O and 16k for a Captain. THAT is what your free housing is costing you every month.
It is Emirates. Nothing is free.
It is Emirates. Nothing is free.