Lowered requirements Emirates
short flights long nights
Just my opinion, and I hope I am wrong, but I think, if you are expecting them to change the training for TP guys, then think again.
Why? Because increasing the training cost $$$$, and that has to come out of someone's bonus.
And the chasing of bonuses is how EK got themselves into this mess in the first place.
Why? Because increasing the training cost $$$$, and that has to come out of someone's bonus.
And the chasing of bonuses is how EK got themselves into this mess in the first place.
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The TP guys will have a modified training schedule with additional sessions/sectors as per recent washup. SOPS you're up to an average of 5 posts a day, don't you have anything better to do with your retirement?
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Why do so many of you insist on attacking fellow pilots? Many TP guys will undoubtedly apply. Some will be accepted, many will not. Of those hired, most will will get through, some will not. On line, most will be good guys, some will not. Just like everyone else.
The real issue is the f*@king company. Too many guys are leaving. Why? Because of constantly deteriorating pay and unbelievable working conditions. Too few guys are joining. Why? Same reasons as above. Despite this, the company keeps growing and needing more pilots. What's the answer? Pay pilots better and improve working conditions and QOL? Of course not. That's not how we do things here. Instead, we'll cast our net even wider in order to get the numbers we need. Meanwhile attrition continues and will likely increase. The entry requirements can not be reduced any lower. So, what's next? There's only one lever left to pull and I suspect it will come sooner rather than later.
The real issue is the f*@king company. Too many guys are leaving. Why? Because of constantly deteriorating pay and unbelievable working conditions. Too few guys are joining. Why? Same reasons as above. Despite this, the company keeps growing and needing more pilots. What's the answer? Pay pilots better and improve working conditions and QOL? Of course not. That's not how we do things here. Instead, we'll cast our net even wider in order to get the numbers we need. Meanwhile attrition continues and will likely increase. The entry requirements can not be reduced any lower. So, what's next? There's only one lever left to pull and I suspect it will come sooner rather than later.
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Way back in 1989 Gulf Air was short of pilots and hired about 8 expat,relatively high time turbo-prop pilots as 737 Second Officers, bonded for five years. Half the costs of training on the 737 were to be recovered by salary deduction over the five years. F/O status came at the end of some fairly rigorous sim and line training - about 12 sim sessions followed by some 85 or so sectors interspersed with more sim sessions - which followed closely the progression of the EK Cadets in terms of handling below 10000', safety pilot cover, take offs and landings etc. With one exception (who baled out to pursue a different career in running a very successful bar in Bahrain), all were successful, and after about two years on the 737, moved on to the 767 and long haul destinations in Europe, Asia and, yes, Darkest Africa A sensible progression. All subsequently became long haul wide body Captains (not necessarily in GF), and a few are still flying for various Royal Flights around the Gulf. None, as far as I am aware, had any untoward incidents.
It can be done, given the right training, and attitude from both sides
Just saying...to quote other posters.
7B
It can be done, given the right training, and attitude from both sides
Just saying...to quote other posters.
7B
short flights long nights
I'm only averaging five posts a day? Im going to have to try harder!
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777boyo
That's the difference I guess, no 737's to cut your teeth on during many short sectors. Sitting in the right seat on a 15hour MCO is somewhat different and hardly ideal to building confidence and experience on energy management. If the Company were to put in an hour restriction before allowing ULR's, that might help.
Perhaps a suggestion for all new TP guys to cut their teeth initially on turnarounds only....preferably night!
Harry
That's the difference I guess, no 737's to cut your teeth on during many short sectors. Sitting in the right seat on a 15hour MCO is somewhat different and hardly ideal to building confidence and experience on energy management. If the Company were to put in an hour restriction before allowing ULR's, that might help.
Perhaps a suggestion for all new TP guys to cut their teeth initially on turnarounds only....preferably night!
Harry
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Harry,
Agreed. 6 sectors a day up and down the Gulf - yes, 6 - on a 737-200 was fantastic training, especially as two of those sectors were 8 minutes take off to touchdown and mostly hand flown at 2500'. That's one training area EK would struggle to replicate. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I joined EK and only did 4 sectors a day, the dreaded "double sector"! Having said that, we were not working as hard as I did in my last five years with EK, and had more time off.
There were rumours years ago about a deal with Oman Air for EK Cadets to fly short haul for a couple of years prior to coming back to EK wide bodies, but it came to nothing. Seem to recall some Cadets went to Fly Dubai for the same reason, and by all accounts really enjoyed the experience. Maybe there's the answer.
7B
Agreed. 6 sectors a day up and down the Gulf - yes, 6 - on a 737-200 was fantastic training, especially as two of those sectors were 8 minutes take off to touchdown and mostly hand flown at 2500'. That's one training area EK would struggle to replicate. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I joined EK and only did 4 sectors a day, the dreaded "double sector"! Having said that, we were not working as hard as I did in my last five years with EK, and had more time off.
There were rumours years ago about a deal with Oman Air for EK Cadets to fly short haul for a couple of years prior to coming back to EK wide bodies, but it came to nothing. Seem to recall some Cadets went to Fly Dubai for the same reason, and by all accounts really enjoyed the experience. Maybe there's the answer.
7B
Last edited by 777boyo; 7th Aug 2015 at 15:12. Reason: Addition
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fliion
tell me the difference? a human life is a human life, isn't it?
''Emirates philosophy and those of us who came when the MINIMUM was 4000 hrs - was we can 'train' an 'experienced' pilot with the right 'attitude'. Your philosophy slightly different.''
Apparently their philosophy is changing. Same is for companies like Cathay, see their cadet program. If we're going to follow your philosophy to the letter, then let's close all flying schools around the world. We can't train you unless you have experience!
Asiana B777 in SFO: VERY EXPERIENCED pilots, crashed simply because they failed to monitor their airspeed.
This is not a question of philosophy, it's a question of supply and demand. They had the luxury to hire 4000h+ pilots cause there was so many pilots available in the market.
Any normally constituted being will do a good job with the right attitude and training.
adolph hucker,
''You see making a mistake with 19 people on board is different than with 500.''
''Emirates philosophy and those of us who came when the MINIMUM was 4000 hrs - was we can 'train' an 'experienced' pilot with the right 'attitude'. Your philosophy slightly different.''
Apparently their philosophy is changing. Same is for companies like Cathay, see their cadet program. If we're going to follow your philosophy to the letter, then let's close all flying schools around the world. We can't train you unless you have experience!
Asiana B777 in SFO: VERY EXPERIENCED pilots, crashed simply because they failed to monitor their airspeed.
This is not a question of philosophy, it's a question of supply and demand. They had the luxury to hire 4000h+ pilots cause there was so many pilots available in the market.
Any normally constituted being will do a good job with the right attitude and training.
adolph hucker,
Jumbo
"Asiana B777 in SFO: VERY EXPERIENCED pilots, crashed simply because they failed to monitor their airspeed"
You sir are a fool if you believe that this particular accident was as simple as you portray.
I personally have no issue with experienced TP people coming onboard, as long as they are trained correctly and given the opportunity to learn.
This whole thing about standards is nonsense, this is an argument that should focus on on relevant experience.
You can't as they say put an old head on young shoulders, it's the same thing when you pair a newish skipper with a guy/girl that still hasn't had the exposure to the wide and varied threats we face day in day out. It's also a different kettle of fish managing yourself in respect of jetlag, the interaction with a variety of crew profiles and of course the management style we all know and love.
Throw in crappy weather, crappy airports, not knowing what you still don't know and we arrive at a point where potentially there is a steep cockpit gradient in terms of experience and ability, now what happens if the experienced person thanks to an unrelenting schedule, commercial and management induced stress, plus maybe a bit from home suddenly is incapable of performing their functions at a critical phase?
With the experienced jet person sat on my right I'm confident things will work out ok, I can't yet say in all honesty that the 2500hr ATR or Dash 8 person will inspire the same level of confidence. And yes before anyone asks, I certainly believe cadets fall into this inexperienced category as well.
Just my thoughts.
"Asiana B777 in SFO: VERY EXPERIENCED pilots, crashed simply because they failed to monitor their airspeed"
You sir are a fool if you believe that this particular accident was as simple as you portray.
I personally have no issue with experienced TP people coming onboard, as long as they are trained correctly and given the opportunity to learn.
This whole thing about standards is nonsense, this is an argument that should focus on on relevant experience.
You can't as they say put an old head on young shoulders, it's the same thing when you pair a newish skipper with a guy/girl that still hasn't had the exposure to the wide and varied threats we face day in day out. It's also a different kettle of fish managing yourself in respect of jetlag, the interaction with a variety of crew profiles and of course the management style we all know and love.
Throw in crappy weather, crappy airports, not knowing what you still don't know and we arrive at a point where potentially there is a steep cockpit gradient in terms of experience and ability, now what happens if the experienced person thanks to an unrelenting schedule, commercial and management induced stress, plus maybe a bit from home suddenly is incapable of performing their functions at a critical phase?
With the experienced jet person sat on my right I'm confident things will work out ok, I can't yet say in all honesty that the 2500hr ATR or Dash 8 person will inspire the same level of confidence. And yes before anyone asks, I certainly believe cadets fall into this inexperienced category as well.
Just my thoughts.
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Apparently their philosophy is changing. Same is for companies like Cathay, see their cadet program. If we're going to follow your philosophy to the letter, then let's close all flying schools around the world. We can't train you unless you have experience!
What a stupid argument! Logically we need flying schools and integrate the young to give them experience. it all goes with the syllaby and depth of training. If you really believe that at EK there will be a serious adaptation to the lower requirements, and not just a figue leaf additional sim session at most, then you should definitely fail any assessment of a airline pilot!
You guys need a huge reality check.
Tell me, would you hand over your formula1 car to a rookie who just won the cart championship? Would you let him play in midfield on a Premier league crucial match? Would you set him as second single player in the Davis Cup?
Only if you have no alternative, just like EK now. If you could and wanted to play it safe, you would go for some sort of experience and slowly integrate the rookies in lesser heat. You would also know that if not, you'd incur a bigger risk for failure and you know that in the aftermath you would have all the monday morning quarterbacks tearing you apart, and you would have lost your job. All pros involved would warn you beforehand, although they would be cried down as arrogant and feudal arrivistas that would better shut up and accept the wind of change (basically the wind of abysmal greed)
Losing a game is not really tragic, the championship a little more and in F1 there would be casualties. In aviation most probably only the latter.
The connection between lower initial requrements and insufficient training is always made in the aftermath of an accident (BAH), but very quickly forgotten by the greedy owners, the customers who want cheap flights, the bribed regulators and the eager rookies who might have heard of such catastrophies, but it would certainly never happen to them.
The warning of the old and experienced farts to them are just that: farts.
They smell and no one likes them, i know, but they are reality.
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What a mess! Cant believe the amount of hate. Honestly, many ppl on this forum have said it before, there are always negatives and positives about everything and every airline. One thing you can do if you don't like the future at EK, is look for an opportunity with an airline that matches your preference.
Its evident the issues at EK, im sure more than most airlines nowadays but do yourself a favor and start to look for another opportunity. If you feel EK as incompetent, GCAA as incompetent, and Dubai as incompetent... the only way to react is to leave. Are you going to complain everyday now and end up retiring an EK pilot? If you're naive go ahead....i understand its not easy to, but it wasn't easy when you applied and came to Dubai either...
WHO CARES IF THEY SET THE MIN. TO 1500, ARE THEY GONNA HIRE 99 OUT OF EVERY 100 AT 1500? You're an idiot if you think so, if they do, we'll let their safety record speak, and call their HR incompetent.
Its evident the issues at EK, im sure more than most airlines nowadays but do yourself a favor and start to look for another opportunity. If you feel EK as incompetent, GCAA as incompetent, and Dubai as incompetent... the only way to react is to leave. Are you going to complain everyday now and end up retiring an EK pilot? If you're naive go ahead....i understand its not easy to, but it wasn't easy when you applied and came to Dubai either...
WHO CARES IF THEY SET THE MIN. TO 1500, ARE THEY GONNA HIRE 99 OUT OF EVERY 100 AT 1500? You're an idiot if you think so, if they do, we'll let their safety record speak, and call their HR incompetent.
Monarch man,
So a 2500hr LCC FO is experienced, but a 2500hr Dash 8 pilot isn't? I cant follow your logic?
So a 2500hr LCC FO is experienced, but a 2500hr Dash 8 pilot isn't? I cant follow your logic?
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Was tp SF34 skipper and join as DEC on B732 all over deep dark Africa...then DEC B777 in Asia...tp is not easier...only network discovery,ATC accents are challenging ...jet acft? descent and reduce earlier....oversteer on taxi...don't overboost M1.0...
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Each has their different challenges just like different areas of operations for the same aircraft type have their challenges.
I was a turboprop guy for many years on several types and then went to jets for a few years, back to turboprop and then back to jets again.
ATC accents can be challenging for TP guys in Europe just like in the big jets or even other areas where different languages are encountered. Weather issues can be much more critical and challenging to TP guys as ice can be a huge issue and storms cannot be topped or circumvented as easily.
To be honest, some of the turboprops have near as much info to learn about as the jet types and are much less advanced requiring much more hand flying. Several types I flew had no autopilot or flight director(of course that has changed). The ILS to ILS world of many jet operations is fairly straight forward compared to non-precision circling approaches in mountainous areas at night that is much more typical of the prop world. We did that and total black hole approaches with no PAPI at some locations onto not overly long landing areas.
Non-precision approach alternates were normal meaning that fog at your alternate ruined your day instead of being bailed out by doing an autoland.
9 legs a day was not rare and beats one or two landings a month for landing currency.
Losing an engine at V1 could be much more critical for the types that had no autofeather and the significant increase in drag. Losing an engine in cruise was also critical as speed decayed very rapidly while the prop windmilled. And we didn't have an automatic rudder input to help us.
I was a turboprop guy for many years on several types and then went to jets for a few years, back to turboprop and then back to jets again.
ATC accents can be challenging for TP guys in Europe just like in the big jets or even other areas where different languages are encountered. Weather issues can be much more critical and challenging to TP guys as ice can be a huge issue and storms cannot be topped or circumvented as easily.
To be honest, some of the turboprops have near as much info to learn about as the jet types and are much less advanced requiring much more hand flying. Several types I flew had no autopilot or flight director(of course that has changed). The ILS to ILS world of many jet operations is fairly straight forward compared to non-precision circling approaches in mountainous areas at night that is much more typical of the prop world. We did that and total black hole approaches with no PAPI at some locations onto not overly long landing areas.
Non-precision approach alternates were normal meaning that fog at your alternate ruined your day instead of being bailed out by doing an autoland.
9 legs a day was not rare and beats one or two landings a month for landing currency.
Losing an engine at V1 could be much more critical for the types that had no autofeather and the significant increase in drag. Losing an engine in cruise was also critical as speed decayed very rapidly while the prop windmilled. And we didn't have an automatic rudder input to help us.