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Back to the future (3 ULR's)

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Back to the future (3 ULR's)

Old 14th Aug 2014, 16:18
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NAT
Age: 36
Posts: 68
I wasn't talking about PER, just trying to make a point, sorry to disappoint you Jihad.

Followed your advice of reading again and still can't see where it says 3 hours for OPERATING CREW under the extension of a fdp section...
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Old 14th Aug 2014, 16:43
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Empty quarter
Age: 39
Posts: 15
Flam,Flion etc

Ive deleted my contirbution and left the reason below


Any more feedback will enter the ether. I really dont give a [email protected] for willful ignorance or obstinance.

JJ

Last edited by Jihad Jim; 15th Aug 2014 at 06:40. Reason: Withdrwal from the act of pissing against the wind.
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Old 14th Aug 2014, 17:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,007
Clear as mud down to JJ.

Good riddance.

f.
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Old 14th Aug 2014, 17:58
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dubai
Age: 41
Posts: 38
Hi CF and F ,

Just trying to see where you are coming from.

Are you saying that unless all 3 crew get three hours then the duty can't be extended?

And on flights where it is not possible for all three crew to get three hours then extension is not required anyway? I.e going to PVG, ICN etc

The FDP guidelines under ref/pubs (on the portal front page) seem to suggest you may be right. (version 2 9 jan 2014)

Extension of FDP
a. In-Flight Relief
An additional flight crew member can be carried to provide in-flight relief with the intent of extending the MAX Allowable FDP. The division of duty and rest must be kept balanced between the flight crew members.
The FDP shall only be extended if the total in-flight rest exceeds 3 hours for each flight crew member. The rest is not required to be consecutive.
Standing by for incoming...JJ be nice

Last edited by Modesh; 14th Aug 2014 at 19:06. Reason: Location of FDP guidelines and added quote
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Old 14th Aug 2014, 18:24
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In the seat
Posts: 284
Jihad Jim you've hit the nail on the head - spot on with your analysis.

The FCI states that if circumstances permit……..., the operating crew still need a minimum of 3 hours rest in order to extend the FDP!!
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Old 14th Aug 2014, 18:50
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NAT
Age: 36
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Thanks modesh, that is pretty much what I was trying to point out/inquire or begging to put me out of my ignorance since Jihads posts still don't quite answer the question.

Not trying to start a pissing match with anyone, and I agree with most of the Jihad's posts.

It's obvious that the operating crew have the upper hand with the rest, so, why not write it in plain English? "The operating crew must ensure to have 3 hours rest in order to extend the FDP with a third pilot etc, etc etc" or something like that.

The burnout policy is very clear saying Capt and FO, but the extension of a FDP is not and even the fci doesnt specify operating crew.

Take a chill pill Jihad, we are all on the same team
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Old 14th Aug 2014, 19:08
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,007
And here in lies the rub that apparently we all don't get that Jihad J does..

When it comes to the new 7.7.1.3

"Provided that the total in-flight rest available is 3 hours or greater, the FDP can be extended as below. Rest can be taken in separate, non- consecutive periods."

So the above mentions rest with no reference to the individual pilot ...could that be construed as collective rest? Per RAIG CH2 pg 58

BUT when it comes to burnout policy in the new FCI it specifically mentions the individual pilot

"The Commander shall ensure that the First Officer and himself avail of a minimum of 3 hours rest (which need not be consecutive) prior to standing down the augmenting crew member."

Clear as mud again.

As I said before ...completely unprofessional of Fleet to send this FCI without any background and common sense explanation to those of us not Barristers at Law like our Jihadi buddy.

I just want to know in plain English WTF is going on.

Too much to ask.

Apparently

f.
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 03:39
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Somewhere!
Posts: 2
Challenge yourself Quiz Dec 2013

Q.3. What is the difference between the BURN OUT POLICY and the 3 PILOT NON-ULR REST STRATEGY? And

to which pairing is the BURN OUT POLICY currently applied?

A.3. Specific pairings authorised by DSVP-FO may be augmented by an additional flight crew member for the

purpose of extending the FDP. These specific parings should have the burn out policy applied to the augmenting

crew member. Burn out policy currently applied to Harare-Lusaka-Dubai sector only, as per currently effective FCN

2012-001, part of aircraft documentation. All other 3 man crew operations i.e those to the far east, should adhere as

closely as possible to the rest strategy as determined in the RAIG, section 2.6.1, i.e equal inflight rest for all 3 crew

members.


Reference: OM-A 7.7.1.3, FCN 2012-001 & RAIG 2.6.1
inono is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2014, 03:44
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Flight Time Limitations/ Commander's Discretion Calculation Guide V2 (09.01.2014)

Extension of FDP

a. In-Flight Relief An additional flight crew member can be carried to provide in-flight relief with the intent of extending the MAX Allowable FDP. The division of duty and rest must be kept balanced between the flight crew members.

The FDP shall only be extended if the total in-flight rest exceeds 3 hours for each flight crew member. The rest is not required to be consecutive.

For rest in a bunk: Half the total rest taken can be added to the MAX allowable FDP; on condition that the MAX FDP does not exceed 18 hours

For rest in a seat: One third the total rest taken can be added to the MAX allowable FDP; on condition that the MAX FDP does not exceed 15 hours
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 04:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hotels
Posts: 189
I just want to know in plain English WTF is going on.
Ok here goes:

In my non-pilot or pilot never flown more than twice a month opinion, you guys get too much time off and we are struggling for pilots. I am an expert on fatigue and always feel refreshed and ready for work on arrival after 14 hours in First Class so don't see what you are whining about.

If you fly 3 ULRs a month, with only 3 pilots on each, we can save money in 3 ways:
1. fewer crew to pay
2. reduced recruitment costs
3. reduced medical and welfare costs due to fatigue and early death.

The only way for you to change the situation is through ASRs and fatigue reporting (when justified) but we are confident that most of you are such pussies that you won't do it. In fact, in the unlikely event our hubris has screwed the operation, we are certain you weenies will go the extra mile to help out.

Standby for the new 4 ULR, 2 crew rules and free coffin on retirement! (If you elect for cremation, the Stealey Wheelie can double up)

Love, The Management

How's that?
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 06:59
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hades.
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So going to PVG the augmenter may only get 2:20 hr.. as flight time is not long enough for all crew to have three hours.
AFAIK the outbound PVG sector does not need to be augmented. Therefore, it's an even split! Augmenter is for the return sector.
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 07:30
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
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OM-A 7.9.3 Limits on Two Flight Crew Long Range Operations

If you operate back from far east with 2 crew only, you'll be unaclimatised and need to apply factored sectors as per OM-A 7.9.3 Limits on Two Flight Crew Long Range Operations
3 crew means no factored sectors and normal FDP = 11:30 iso 09:45 for 2
If flight time is more than 10h, each crew will get at least 3h and FDP can be extended, if not, we are not limited so no need to extend anything.
Keep it in balance in any case
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 08:22
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 43,000 ft
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Wrong. JJ was correct. Only the operating crew MUST get 3 hours in order to extend. IF the flight is long enough then all crew will get 3+ equally.
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 08:56
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Helen D is right, with reference to the flights like PVG and ICN, the outbound flight from DXB does not need to be augmented, and until not so long ago the augmenting crew was always deadheaded there as pax. It is the return leg that requires augmenting.
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 09:04
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 43,000 ft
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H 1 is also correct. Outbound I share equally irregardless of the trip length because augment is technically not required in that direction (eastbound).
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 09:40
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South of North
Posts: 656
I agree as well. The only issue I have is if the FO does not get 3 hours then he may duty out. In which case he should have a seat in the back reserved for him.

I've always had empty seats and sent him back but I don't think most captains even consider this.
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Old 15th Aug 2014, 10:06
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dubai
Age: 41
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From FDP guidelines

Gents from the FDP guidelines

Crew portal front page
> Ref/Publications
> FDP Guidelines (9th Jan 2014)

Extension of FDP
a. In-Flight Relief
An additional flight crew member can be carried to provide in-flight relief with the intent of extending the MAX Allowable FDP. The division of duty and rest must be kept balanced between the flight crew members.
The FDP shall only be extended if the total in-flight rest exceeds 3 hours for each flight crew member. The rest is not required to be consecutive.
b. Burnout Policy
The policy is applied when an additional flight crew member is added to a pairing for the purpose of extending the FDP as an augmenting flight crew member and the sector length will not allow a minimum of 3 hours of rest for each flight crew member.
Seems you can't extend unless all three get three hours??

The point (others are making) is that the third pilot is added in most cases to alleviate the 7.9.3 "limits on two crew long range ops" and not to extend the FDP.

I.e. the flight can't be done legally two crew because of above "2 crew long range ops" but is not long enough for the requirement to extend duty.

Eg You can go to and back from KIX three crew legally without the need to Extend duty. Three crew from KIX-DXB allowable FDP is 11:30 and planned FDP 11:10. As there is no need to extend the duty then no need to have three hours rest although in this case you would probably get over three hours each anyway. If you divert it would be covered by discretion.

So there is a suggestion that as duty is not required to be extended that the rest should be split equally and if its less than 3 hours each then so be it. The operating crew do not require 3 hours as extension is not legally required or planned.

Any flight where the duty is required to be extended I.e PER will be of sufficient flight time for all three crew members to get at least three hours and so you can legally extend the duty as required.

Thoughts?

M
Modesh is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2014, 10:59
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 144
Wow...so simple made so difficult!

Operating crew need 3 hours rest or more to extend fdp. If flight time is sufficient then the relief crew can also have 3, if insufficient priority is given to operating crews.

It seems its only the newbies who haven't operated this before who want to read this differently as it effects them as the relief crew!

No 3 hours rest for "A" crew, no extension of FDP!

Not rocket science!
Silky is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2014, 11:25
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dubai
Age: 41
Posts: 38
Silky

With respect you maybe missing the point.

The point is most of these flights do not legally require the extension of Duty by rest.

They only require three crew to avoid the two crew long range ops limit.

Three crew ex DXB at 2am can do an 11:00 FDP (Un-extended so to speak)

Check the table 7.6.2.1

Going to ICN planned FDP is 9:10.

So rest should be equal and will be less than three hours as extension is not required.

Any flight that needs extension by rest will have to have an FDP over 11:00 e.g. PER and the flight time will be long enough for all crew members to get at least three hours each.

??????
Modesh is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2014, 11:33
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 144
Point not missed...no extension required then...so not any issue.

Return sector depending on winds may require the 3rd man to remain legal, it's not new....this has been done for PER, west Africa and even PEK in winter time.

I see why JJ opted out of this, simple, the operating Capt on the day makes the decision as the accountable manager. If the relief guy is unhappy then file an ASR.
Ciao
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