DXB in Fog
Join Date: Jul 2011
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DXB in Fog
We waited 3 hours for a tug for pushback. While the 380 beside us had a tug connected but was waiting on a new crew since the original crew timed out. Asking them to move the tug to us was way too far out of the box since that flight was suppose to depart before us.
ATC was telling us that they were ready for us but we couldn't get DNATA to understand.
DNATA told us that we would get a tug after ATC releases other airplanes that were waiting for pushback first. Even if those flights were not ready yet.
ATC was telling us that they were ready for us but we couldn't get DNATA to understand.
DNATA told us that we would get a tug after ATC releases other airplanes that were waiting for pushback first. Even if those flights were not ready yet.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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That morning was comfortably the most testing of my ATC career. There seemed to be far too many cooks getting involved.
Once the fog started to lift, we were given a list from Emirates telling us which aircraft were ready on stand with tugs attached The first one I called for push on the list.....didn't have a tug.....! Shambolic.
The GMP frequency was impossible to control because as soon as there was any gap in the frequency, x number of calls come through asking for position in the queue. On top of that Emirates were busy refiling flight plans for god knows what reason, meaning we had duplicate strips for a significant number of flights who already have active plans becauae they had been sat in the ready bay for x hours.
I know that only a tiny minority of EK pilots read these forums but if those who do could spread the word to their brethren that in situations like the other day, asking for position in the queue is so far down the list in our priorities that a call like that only exacerbates a ridiculous situation. There were simply far too many aircraft and strips for us to give any semblence of a position in the queue.
And please don't be fooled into thinking that just because there is momentary silence on the frequency, it means we are sat in the tower twiddling our thumbs with our feet up. None of the co-ordination we do is done via the radio, its done directly between 2 atcos or via a telephone line that the pilots can't hear. And believe me, on that morning the co-ordination didn't stop once the fog started lifting.
I say it constantly, but it would be really good to see some EK pilots up in the tower for liaison visits so you can see exactly how we operate and with the restrictions we face. But unfortunately it just doesn't seem to be something that is promoted fron your side as something that is available to you.
Once the fog started to lift, we were given a list from Emirates telling us which aircraft were ready on stand with tugs attached The first one I called for push on the list.....didn't have a tug.....! Shambolic.
The GMP frequency was impossible to control because as soon as there was any gap in the frequency, x number of calls come through asking for position in the queue. On top of that Emirates were busy refiling flight plans for god knows what reason, meaning we had duplicate strips for a significant number of flights who already have active plans becauae they had been sat in the ready bay for x hours.
I know that only a tiny minority of EK pilots read these forums but if those who do could spread the word to their brethren that in situations like the other day, asking for position in the queue is so far down the list in our priorities that a call like that only exacerbates a ridiculous situation. There were simply far too many aircraft and strips for us to give any semblence of a position in the queue.
And please don't be fooled into thinking that just because there is momentary silence on the frequency, it means we are sat in the tower twiddling our thumbs with our feet up. None of the co-ordination we do is done via the radio, its done directly between 2 atcos or via a telephone line that the pilots can't hear. And believe me, on that morning the co-ordination didn't stop once the fog started lifting.
I say it constantly, but it would be really good to see some EK pilots up in the tower for liaison visits so you can see exactly how we operate and with the restrictions we face. But unfortunately it just doesn't seem to be something that is promoted fron your side as something that is available to you.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Mhk77.
I think most of us are fully aware that you guys have your hands full, and then some, in cases like we saw this weekend. Unfortunately, you guys are our only source of information regarding delays etc. We also have a fair amount of coordination to do (dealing with pax, crew, ground handlers, company, fuelers,etc.) in an attempt to eventually get off the gate, and any hint on the amount of the delay is very helpful to us.
Some ground controllers are quite frank with their responses, giving a minimum delay as well as the number in the queue and even giving periodic announcements to all A/C updating the expected delays. This I find very helpful indeed, in dealing with our bits. In spite of how busy you guys are, I suspect that if you can pass on as much pertinent information to us as possible, you would receive a lot less interruptions, enabling you to do your bits.
My 2 cents
I think most of us are fully aware that you guys have your hands full, and then some, in cases like we saw this weekend. Unfortunately, you guys are our only source of information regarding delays etc. We also have a fair amount of coordination to do (dealing with pax, crew, ground handlers, company, fuelers,etc.) in an attempt to eventually get off the gate, and any hint on the amount of the delay is very helpful to us.
Some ground controllers are quite frank with their responses, giving a minimum delay as well as the number in the queue and even giving periodic announcements to all A/C updating the expected delays. This I find very helpful indeed, in dealing with our bits. In spite of how busy you guys are, I suspect that if you can pass on as much pertinent information to us as possible, you would receive a lot less interruptions, enabling you to do your bits.
My 2 cents
Join Date: Apr 2009
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What Curry Goat said, the big issue MHK77 is that we have up to 500 or so souls with individual fears, faults and prejudices' whom all have places they'd rather be, and to placate and manage that requires information, accurate and valid being the best kind.
I'm certain that we all appreciate the clusterf**k that occurred on saturday and part of that is learning what could be done better.
From our perspective, I'm on your side, the constant calls, interruptions and queries do nothing to help anyone, far better IMHO to broadcast on the ground/delivery freq every 10-15min an update of the situation (like they do at LHR/LGW/JFK/MIA etc etc)
From our end, I'm afraid to say, we reap what we sow, if the management mentality is to micro-manage and encourage a punitive worker drone culture then the result will be identical the next time, and the next time, and the next time.
I feel sorry for the passengers inconvenienced and the front of shop staff who had to bear the brunt of some rather poor decision making.
Machspeeds' experience highlights a very real cultural limitation with how things are presently done.
I'm certain that we all appreciate the clusterf**k that occurred on saturday and part of that is learning what could be done better.
From our perspective, I'm on your side, the constant calls, interruptions and queries do nothing to help anyone, far better IMHO to broadcast on the ground/delivery freq every 10-15min an update of the situation (like they do at LHR/LGW/JFK/MIA etc etc)
From our end, I'm afraid to say, we reap what we sow, if the management mentality is to micro-manage and encourage a punitive worker drone culture then the result will be identical the next time, and the next time, and the next time.
I feel sorry for the passengers inconvenienced and the front of shop staff who had to bear the brunt of some rather poor decision making.
Machspeeds' experience highlights a very real cultural limitation with how things are presently done.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
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mhk77 check your PM's..
Well at least TCAS's e-mail has put us all at ease that it won't ever happen again........
I won't even discuss how much extra fuel we were given to "protect the hub" the following day and what we actually landed with, nothing like a knee-jerk reaction after the horse has bolted.
Well at least TCAS's e-mail has put us all at ease that it won't ever happen again........
I won't even discuss how much extra fuel we were given to "protect the hub" the following day and what we actually landed with, nothing like a knee-jerk reaction after the horse has bolted.
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Hi Curry and falcon,
I totally understand your point of view regarding passengers etc.
However, with the best will in the world, it was literally impossible to get a word in edgeways. Any small gaps on delivery that we were able to utilise were better spent transferring aircraft to GMC for push. It was really that congested. Think SZR on New Years Eve around the Burj Khalifa and you're halfway there :-)
I totally understand your point of view regarding passengers etc.
However, with the best will in the world, it was literally impossible to get a word in edgeways. Any small gaps on delivery that we were able to utilise were better spent transferring aircraft to GMC for push. It was really that congested. Think SZR on New Years Eve around the Burj Khalifa and you're halfway there :-)
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Just put on the ATIS the famous:
"Don't call us, we will call you"!
Information might be crucial for passenger and crew comfort, but has little to do on ATC radio. Give the slot times to the company and shove the information part down their throats. The company then can send us ACARS with our slot or position in the queue. They are always sooo paranoid about total control, so let them assume it!
Just keep the ATC frequencies quiet and open for the real start-up and taxi clearances. That's what Air Traffic Control is about, after all.
"Don't call us, we will call you"!
Information might be crucial for passenger and crew comfort, but has little to do on ATC radio. Give the slot times to the company and shove the information part down their throats. The company then can send us ACARS with our slot or position in the queue. They are always sooo paranoid about total control, so let them assume it!
Just keep the ATC frequencies quiet and open for the real start-up and taxi clearances. That's what Air Traffic Control is about, after all.
Join Date: Aug 2006
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How about
Fog
Understanding
Chaos
Talking to
ATC
Reducing
Delays
Callsign "Fuctard Operations".....
Or
Pro-actively
Reducing
Operational
Factors
In
Times of
Serious
Hazardous
Atmospheric
Regimes
Expeditor
Callsign "Profit Share Ops"
Fog
Understanding
Chaos
Talking to
ATC
Reducing
Delays
Callsign "Fuctard Operations".....
Or
Pro-actively
Reducing
Operational
Factors
In
Times of
Serious
Hazardous
Atmospheric
Regimes
Expeditor
Callsign "Profit Share Ops"
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
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ATC Tours
MHK77
I agree that a tour of the ATC would serve heighten the awareness. However it is so ridiculously difficult to get the permission required from both sides plus all the ID copies, NOC's, emails and stamps of approvals etc. I tried to tour OMDW once a few years ago and gave up because of the sheer stupidity and complication of the process.
Perhaps TCAS could spearhead a program whereby pilots could be taken on a tour of ATC on their ground school days instead of wasting everyones time with what amounts to be useless drivel and blatant lies at the wash-ups...mind you then he wouldn't have time to issue such well thought out emails.
"There's nothing like a nice piece of Hickory" ~ Clint Eastwood-circa 1985
I agree that a tour of the ATC would serve heighten the awareness. However it is so ridiculously difficult to get the permission required from both sides plus all the ID copies, NOC's, emails and stamps of approvals etc. I tried to tour OMDW once a few years ago and gave up because of the sheer stupidity and complication of the process.
Perhaps TCAS could spearhead a program whereby pilots could be taken on a tour of ATC on their ground school days instead of wasting everyones time with what amounts to be useless drivel and blatant lies at the wash-ups...mind you then he wouldn't have time to issue such well thought out emails.
"There's nothing like a nice piece of Hickory" ~ Clint Eastwood-circa 1985
Beady Eye
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You also now have an ATC Specialist Section in EK HQ, in Hub Ops who you can talk to about ATC matters.
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BDiONU,
Its not quite that easy. When I tried, I needed written permission from high up in ATC, a NOC from flight operations, certified true copies of my UAE ATPL and airline ID and a letter from the police (I guess that speeding ticket was a real problem). I have toured an active military installation with less complication.
Its like everything else in this place...too many chiefs and too many Indians !
Banana Air has it right...just another indian chief with a title taking up space in costa coffee and the parking garage.
Its not quite that easy. When I tried, I needed written permission from high up in ATC, a NOC from flight operations, certified true copies of my UAE ATPL and airline ID and a letter from the police (I guess that speeding ticket was a real problem). I have toured an active military installation with less complication.
Its like everything else in this place...too many chiefs and too many Indians !
Banana Air has it right...just another indian chief with a title taking up space in costa coffee and the parking garage.
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ATC Visit like BDiONU said you all have the ID to get airside and would just take just a phone call ahead to arrange tour, you or your airline could do!! I am approach and when we were DXB based, DXB/SHJ/MIN/DWC approach is done from new centre at DWC for people not in the know, we had pilots who would just pop in on the off chance plus EK used to have regular visits not so now!!
Beady Eye
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"ATC Specialist Section in EK HQ"
Announcing the above position that has been created which will make everything better in future.
The ATC Specialist will be based in the Big Giant Head alongside The Fog Is Coming Specialist, The Single Runway Operations Specialist, <snip>
Problem solved……….
Announcing the above position that has been created which will make everything better in future.
The ATC Specialist will be based in the Big Giant Head alongside The Fog Is Coming Specialist, The Single Runway Operations Specialist, <snip>
Problem solved……….
From my personal perspective and experience the largest drawback at DXB is lack of A-CDM, in particular a tool fit for that purpose. The current system is at least 15 years old and was up for replacement 5 years ago. Only in the tendering stages now, so quite some time until it replaces UFIS. When it does you will begin to see large scale improvements in information flow, both ways.
Beady Eye
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not a tool ?
I raised on another thread allready the question about that new GMC feature called follow-the-greens which is (going) in operation at DXB.
Why didn't DXB ATC use it that day? Do EK crews know about it ?
It's said to be a great step forward in LVO to avoid slow-go and traffic jams!
I'm looking forward to take a closer look at the World ATM Congress at Madrid next week,
Maybe DXB customers/frequent users should do that as well?
Why didn't DXB ATC use it that day? Do EK crews know about it ?
It's said to be a great step forward in LVO to avoid slow-go and traffic jams!
I'm looking forward to take a closer look at the World ATM Congress at Madrid next week,
Maybe DXB customers/frequent users should do that as well?