RTA White Elephant
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RTA White Elephant
Seems like Emirates got sucked into a program costing millions and not being practical at all.
Bahrain ATC's are already cancelling RTA's on first contact unless you are the only one in the sky.
In practice a 777 doing m.79 followed by an A380 20 miles behind doing
m.87. because of RTA will irk ATC... now add another 10 aircraft all doing this type of shyte.
This system is bound for the trash can
Bahrain ATC's are already cancelling RTA's on first contact unless you are the only one in the sky.
In practice a 777 doing m.79 followed by an A380 20 miles behind doing
m.87. because of RTA will irk ATC... now add another 10 aircraft all doing this type of shyte.
This system is bound for the trash can
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Required Time of Arrival.
In this case over the fix/ holding point DESDI .
Emirates Airline give their aircraft these arrival times to space them out for a smoother operation - sounds good in theory = sucks in practice.
This system cant work unless there are no ATC , no weather , no other aircraft besides Emirates , and all these Emirates Aircraft are on a direct track to the Airport .
A Grade 5 pupil could have told them this.
Guess the Arab ' Manager ' will be promoted soon..........
In this case over the fix/ holding point DESDI .
Emirates Airline give their aircraft these arrival times to space them out for a smoother operation - sounds good in theory = sucks in practice.
This system cant work unless there are no ATC , no weather , no other aircraft besides Emirates , and all these Emirates Aircraft are on a direct track to the Airport .
A Grade 5 pupil could have told them this.
Guess the Arab ' Manager ' will be promoted soon..........
Last edited by birdseed555; 14th Aug 2013 at 00:04.
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So you had one arrival into DXB with RTA and did not notice .
BAH , Abu Dhabi , DXB ATC works over 1000 arrivals a day.
Perhaps they will know better
BAH , Abu Dhabi , DXB ATC works over 1000 arrivals a day.
Perhaps they will know better
Last edited by birdseed555; 14th Aug 2013 at 00:20.
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I just do it.
But the thing is that RTA software can't communicate with all the other airlines bound for Dubai... So there will always be a holding, even with RTA.
But bare in mind ... Any holding saved at low level is saved fuel. Multiply it over the year and it's worth it...
But the thing is that RTA software can't communicate with all the other airlines bound for Dubai... So there will always be a holding, even with RTA.
But bare in mind ... Any holding saved at low level is saved fuel. Multiply it over the year and it's worth it...
Last edited by flaphandlemover; 14th Aug 2013 at 03:43.
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The RTAs are not tied in with the ATC Arrival Manager consequently there will be several occasions where you will be told to speed up or slow down and this will contradict the RTA.
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yesterday at 9am EK told us to slow down and loose 5 minutes, ATC told us to give them max speed, we made up 10 min, so we landed 15 min earlier than EK told us.
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No system like this will ever work perfectly straight away and the impact of ATC/Wx etc. would surely have been accounted for. Given that it is only in its infant stages of implementation, feedback and time should help develop the systems effectivity. The main thing is at least there is some co-ordination which is better than none, there seems to be no issue at all transiting VABF/Muscat, I have had a few flights lately in peak arrivals with only a short vector at BUBIN to join the "trombone/tour of Dubai".
Remember over time, with increased EK movements and the relocation of operators to DWC, this will become more and more beneficial. And to the todlers that get cranky when told to slow down and arrive 2 mins later, sit back have a cup of coffee and pull your head in, your in charge of a multi million dollar aircraft and 100's of lives, surely there are more important things to focus your attention on.
I believe they have recruited some sort of ATC co-ordinator, who I guess would have factored this sort of occurrence into the system.
Or based on one experience you could just dismiss the whole system, because surely you know better than the experts.
Any chance of this heading over to Fly Dubai also?
Remember over time, with increased EK movements and the relocation of operators to DWC, this will become more and more beneficial. And to the todlers that get cranky when told to slow down and arrive 2 mins later, sit back have a cup of coffee and pull your head in, your in charge of a multi million dollar aircraft and 100's of lives, surely there are more important things to focus your attention on.
I believe they have recruited some sort of ATC co-ordinator, who I guess would have factored this sort of occurrence into the system.
Or based on one experience you could just dismiss the whole system, because surely you know better than the experts.
Any chance of this heading over to Fly Dubai also?
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In all fairness, they had to do something and the idea seemed not too bad. But like almost all things in the middle east, there's no coordination.
The system can't work, because one hour up the road, in the bottleneck of Iraq, the participants need to be separated by 40nm and such separation simply can't work if there are too many of them rushing in at the same time and each and every one has his own Mach agenda!
The poor controllers then slow the Superdupers and the T7s to .78 and push the lighttwins to .80 - what a paradox ....
The problem lies in Dubai and it can only be solved there. Shoving up the problem to other ATC units could work if they would have some sort of communication and coordination. But delegating it to the individual aircraft with a ACARS message is typical EK: We have the greatest ideas, allthough
not practical. However we shove it down your throats and if it does not work we'll threaten you a bit first and finally put down all the blame to you if it fails.
Blame the architects of DXB and EK and solve the problem by completeing Makhtoum as fast as possible.
The system can't work, because one hour up the road, in the bottleneck of Iraq, the participants need to be separated by 40nm and such separation simply can't work if there are too many of them rushing in at the same time and each and every one has his own Mach agenda!
The poor controllers then slow the Superdupers and the T7s to .78 and push the lighttwins to .80 - what a paradox ....
The problem lies in Dubai and it can only be solved there. Shoving up the problem to other ATC units could work if they would have some sort of communication and coordination. But delegating it to the individual aircraft with a ACARS message is typical EK: We have the greatest ideas, allthough
not practical. However we shove it down your throats and if it does not work we'll threaten you a bit first and finally put down all the blame to you if it fails.Blame the architects of DXB and EK and solve the problem by completeing Makhtoum as fast as possible.
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Since its inception I've not had more than once round the houses at desdi, yesterday in point of fact we got messed around a little by UAE, thanks I think in part to the guy on freq getting a little frustrated with a couple of sub-continent airlines inbound to sharjah wanting to queue jump
We were handed off, went towards Girmi, and then a vector towards Sedpo descent 2000', cleared ILS 30L..and it was as busy as it gets on freq with the added enjoyment of single runway ops.
Thats been my typical experience since its inception, I think a larger issue is some of our colleagues are still either unwilling or unable to comply with basic speed instructions during the approach phase, particularly between 10 and 4 miles.
We were handed off, went towards Girmi, and then a vector towards Sedpo descent 2000', cleared ILS 30L..and it was as busy as it gets on freq with the added enjoyment of single runway ops.
Thats been my typical experience since its inception, I think a larger issue is some of our colleagues are still either unwilling or unable to comply with basic speed instructions during the approach phase, particularly between 10 and 4 miles.
Last edited by falconeasydriver; 14th Aug 2013 at 11:35. Reason: Somehow "tactical" got into the post grrrr
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If you ask me, it seems to work ok. It's obviously very limited, as it only flows EK's. You do get the odd anomaly, such as the the 380 doing .87 20nm behind the 777 doing .78, as described above, where we will intervene. But overall- it's a start.
It can't work unless everyone inbound is included: a few evenings ago there was a lovely string of EK's inbound all nicely spaced on their RTAs. The only problem was the 2 Fly Dubais in the middle....everyone into the hold.
It can't work unless everyone inbound is included: a few evenings ago there was a lovely string of EK's inbound all nicely spaced on their RTAs. The only problem was the 2 Fly Dubais in the middle....everyone into the hold.
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Hey Captain
A Runway can only handle about 20 landings an hour .
Logically challenged I suppose......
RTA aint gonna change that
A Runway can only handle about 20 landings an hour .
Logically challenged I suppose......
RTA aint gonna change that
Last edited by birdseed555; 14th Aug 2013 at 20:22.
A Runway can only handle about 20 landings an hour .
Secondly, so what? Space out those 20 landings and you experience less delay.
RTA hasn't definitively solved the problem, but here are the guys (including me) using it as pilots and ATCers telling you it's making a difference.
Sorry if you first thread on PPRUNE has turned out to be less than accurate.
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Recent holding into Dubai has decreased dramatically in my opinion. I don't work for emirates but I do work at Fz. I have not been round the hold at DESDI more than twice for a long time so they must be doing something right.
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We land 31 per hour in DXB less when you factor in wind and A380 mix! UAE ACC and DXB ATC use the AMAN system which gives a 'basic' order for all DXB arrivals, not just EK, again not factoring wind or vortex mix.
When I read a few years ago about Emirates getting RTA I wondered how it was going to work with regard non EK flights in the mix, does it take those into account??
The AMAN only starts working when ACC receive an estimate on inbound a/c hence only within 60-90min from DXB! It would be nice if the two systems talked to each other? I.E. EK flights have FMS estimate for DXB virtually from airborne?
When I read a few years ago about Emirates getting RTA I wondered how it was going to work with regard non EK flights in the mix, does it take those into account??
The AMAN only starts working when ACC receive an estimate on inbound a/c hence only within 60-90min from DXB! It would be nice if the two systems talked to each other? I.E. EK flights have FMS estimate for DXB virtually from airborne?
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Birdseed I said in my case it has been cancelled only once, not I have used it only once..RTFP. What does it matter, ATC would change our speed before RTA and they still do after RTA? But in my limited observation indications are it is an improvement... if only slight.
