RTA White Elephant
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It has to reduce holding, as some/all of the delay is taken by flying at reduced speed, and more slots are made by increasing the speed of those at the front. Obvious, really.
Just a reminder to please tell us your RTA speed when you check in. It helps if those of us who make the sequencing decisions, are in the loop!
ps (and this should be a rule imho) once you tell us the speed, don't alter it without telling us. We tend to assume you will keep doing it (like an instruction), which can lead to unwanted surprises. I would prefer to avoid some more incontrovertible rules drifting down to me from above.
Just a reminder to please tell us your RTA speed when you check in. It helps if those of us who make the sequencing decisions, are in the loop!
ps (and this should be a rule imho) once you tell us the speed, don't alter it without telling us. We tend to assume you will keep doing it (like an instruction), which can lead to unwanted surprises. I would prefer to avoid some more incontrovertible rules drifting down to me from above.
Last edited by ferris; 16th Aug 2013 at 09:36. Reason: for the 'ps'
ps (and this should be a rule imho) once you tell us the speed, don't alter it without telling us.
For your info, when we change anything in the FMS profile (an altitude restraint or load a arrival as examples) it does a complete re-calculation of the RTA and may well command a different speed.
We started informing you of the initial RTA speed as a result of management consultation- perhaps either a ruling that once you've announced an RTA speed to BAH or MCT you stick with it, or else communicate any significant changes would be the way to go.
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When? When you check in with BAH or MCT. We were told when RTAs were introduced that you would tell us your mach on first contact (if you were flying a speed to make a time-usually a large reduction from normal). This, for the most part, happens. However, there have been occasions where there have been significant changes to previously announced speeds without anything being said. I know that if we formalise reporting of this, the end result will be something like "Controllers shall ascertain and then assign speed to all a/c on first contact", just adding freq loading and mostly unnecessary frustration etc. all round.
I'm pretty sure if an incident results, this will happen anyway. So, yes, Wiz, I might get in ahead and do as you suggest.
I'm pretty sure if an incident results, this will happen anyway. So, yes, Wiz, I might get in ahead and do as you suggest.
When we check in where?
I have definitely noticed that the holds are not as full recently, especially during the peak EK arrival times so I think it must be helping. I also think that it must help EK ops with scheduling too in that they ought to be able to see where they have potential bottle necks and make adjustments to help with late runners or more important transit flights.
No doubt it would be nice if all airlines used it and there are systems out there that can do that. Of course getting something like that in place around here is a little challenging.
The main problem with the EK only system is that the ability to gain time is less than the ability to lose it as I understand it. The UAE ACC AMAN system looks only a certain distance out as has been mentioned so in slowing down often all you are doing is letting a few non EK flights in ahead.
We'll give you the RTA if you can arrange your brethren at the airport to give us the track miles..... quid pro quo!
Seriously though I hope you'd admit that has improved over recent months. I know I try to do it most of the time now.
As a centre controller, I have a few points that may be of interest. Firstly, the evening peak at this point is certainly less of a glut of planes. There actually seems to be a 10-15 minute break which allows us to clear desdi before the next bunch show up. Of late, the delays at 5-6am are longer than the 11-1am holds. Don't forget that when the Northern winter comes and daylight saving hits all those charter airlines full of Russians will show up and add substantial further delays.
As for the concept of the RTA, going slow WILL hurt you. Our arrivials manager is a very simple device and your EAT is worked out purely by seeing you on radar (we have no Bahrain feed) and using 90 percent of your speed from that point to the hold point to calculate your spot in the order. The way to be number 1 into dubai is to be low and fast. A 777 at .78 side by side with a 320 at .79 will be a loser on our sequence ladder. Additionally, if you come through orsar (take note Fly Dubai) fast and high descent rate wil see you not miss out on spots.
Next year's runway closure will be interesting for sure.
Additionally it seems that perhaps some Emirates crews might be confused as to what thr RTA actually is. I was privy to a conversation where one flight gave the 119.3 controller a hard time about a slow down and a vector as in the aircrew's understanding, the previous sector had given them a go fast, cross desdi time so why now the delaying action. Bahrain and Muscat NEVER issue sequence instructions for dubai. They achieve a cetrain spacing at the fence. I am guessing this crew received their RTA instruction and ue to a communication breakdown on the flight deck thought it was a sequencing instruction. Be aware, RTA is invisible to us and we only care about making the required acceptance rate for dubai happen. For info, that is almost always 31 per hour.
As for the concept of the RTA, going slow WILL hurt you. Our arrivials manager is a very simple device and your EAT is worked out purely by seeing you on radar (we have no Bahrain feed) and using 90 percent of your speed from that point to the hold point to calculate your spot in the order. The way to be number 1 into dubai is to be low and fast. A 777 at .78 side by side with a 320 at .79 will be a loser on our sequence ladder. Additionally, if you come through orsar (take note Fly Dubai) fast and high descent rate wil see you not miss out on spots.
Next year's runway closure will be interesting for sure.
Additionally it seems that perhaps some Emirates crews might be confused as to what thr RTA actually is. I was privy to a conversation where one flight gave the 119.3 controller a hard time about a slow down and a vector as in the aircrew's understanding, the previous sector had given them a go fast, cross desdi time so why now the delaying action. Bahrain and Muscat NEVER issue sequence instructions for dubai. They achieve a cetrain spacing at the fence. I am guessing this crew received their RTA instruction and ue to a communication breakdown on the flight deck thought it was a sequencing instruction. Be aware, RTA is invisible to us and we only care about making the required acceptance rate for dubai happen. For info, that is almost always 31 per hour.
Last edited by Plazbot; 17th Aug 2013 at 15:15.
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Well for my 2 Dinar's worth
As an ATCO in the Baghdad ACC ..RTA has no relevance to us anymore.
When we first heard "RTA speed is.." we all looked around the room to see if anyone knew wtf that meant, then we got used to the term and tried to work with it, now we ignore it
With the southbound 'pushes' out of Turkey it just doesn't work. As someone mentioned in an earlier post the 'bottle neck' where we have two airways joining one at UKMUG just doesn't allow us the flexibility to let EK aircraft fly their own speeds.
There is probably 10 aircraft behind them same level going to different locations who don't give a **** about RTA for Dubai and we can't assign other levels because there blocked with whatever..slower in front that we can't descend or climb because they will be railroaded so you will railroad them or faster behind which we can't climb or descend so they will railroad you.
Ankara will hand off aircraft every level from 310 and above crossing SIDNA at the same time they hand off aircraft every level from 310 and above at NINVA.
This means they will all pretty much meet at UKMUG at the same time. Also we need to have 20nm in trail no closure handing off to Kuwait ( the earlier poster who said we need 40nm is incorrect - thats only if we lose radar..and we don't won't to go there).
To make this work the ATCO's are constantly trying to juggle levels given the aircraft types and speeds and when you ask an aircraft that shows a ridiculous ground speed given its aircraft type to report speed....Ohh RTA requires us to fly at......WTF do .84 now.
This to achieve the spacing we need given the volume of traffic at peak times. We run out of levels so quickly here so tend to rely on speed and direct routings to make it work.
So you pretty much get assigned a speed and we can tell on the RT that some pilots are pissed off, but there is nothing we can do unless we dump the aircraft to a level beginning with the number 2.
With some of our 'pushes' lasting up to 3 hours at a time, RTA does not work in our airspace!
In fact I can tell you RTA will not work between roughly 1530-1800, 2000-2130, 0230-0500 which are all the southbound pushes thru Iraq and a lot of them are going to destinations which are NOT Dubai...
Having said that I have noticed over the last couple of weeks less and less mention of RTA from pilots flying through the airspace.
Well that's probably about 3 Dinar's worth
Cheers
is that better mate........
As an ATCO in the Baghdad ACC ..RTA has no relevance to us anymore.
When we first heard "RTA speed is.." we all looked around the room to see if anyone knew wtf that meant, then we got used to the term and tried to work with it, now we ignore it
With the southbound 'pushes' out of Turkey it just doesn't work. As someone mentioned in an earlier post the 'bottle neck' where we have two airways joining one at UKMUG just doesn't allow us the flexibility to let EK aircraft fly their own speeds.
There is probably 10 aircraft behind them same level going to different locations who don't give a **** about RTA for Dubai and we can't assign other levels because there blocked with whatever..slower in front that we can't descend or climb because they will be railroaded so you will railroad them or faster behind which we can't climb or descend so they will railroad you.
Ankara will hand off aircraft every level from 310 and above crossing SIDNA at the same time they hand off aircraft every level from 310 and above at NINVA.
This means they will all pretty much meet at UKMUG at the same time. Also we need to have 20nm in trail no closure handing off to Kuwait ( the earlier poster who said we need 40nm is incorrect - thats only if we lose radar..and we don't won't to go there).
To make this work the ATCO's are constantly trying to juggle levels given the aircraft types and speeds and when you ask an aircraft that shows a ridiculous ground speed given its aircraft type to report speed....Ohh RTA requires us to fly at......WTF do .84 now.
This to achieve the spacing we need given the volume of traffic at peak times. We run out of levels so quickly here so tend to rely on speed and direct routings to make it work.
So you pretty much get assigned a speed and we can tell on the RT that some pilots are pissed off, but there is nothing we can do unless we dump the aircraft to a level beginning with the number 2.
With some of our 'pushes' lasting up to 3 hours at a time, RTA does not work in our airspace!
In fact I can tell you RTA will not work between roughly 1530-1800, 2000-2130, 0230-0500 which are all the southbound pushes thru Iraq and a lot of them are going to destinations which are NOT Dubai...
Having said that I have noticed over the last couple of weeks less and less mention of RTA from pilots flying through the airspace.
Well that's probably about 3 Dinar's worth
Cheers
is that better mate........
Last edited by baghdadkiwi; 17th Aug 2013 at 22:55.
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It is a courtesy to mention to the ATC that the aircraft is "maintaing M.XX due RTA". It is by no means, a restriction. If ATC can accomodate that speed, then so be it. Otherwise ATC, you ALLWAYS have the last say.
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Baghdad FIR is probably a good example. If there is an EK aircraft cruising on an RTA and the controller sends it direct to Sidad to increase spacing the FMC will just reduce the cruise speed to keep the crossing time at that fix the same as it was before the direct routing was ordered.
Unless the crew adjusts their FMC from RTA to fixed Mach every time a direct clearance is received they are likely confounding the controller's intentions.
Unless the crew adjusts their FMC from RTA to fixed Mach every time a direct clearance is received they are likely confounding the controller's intentions.
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@baghdadkiwi... onya mate, good to have some relevant feedback from someone with the bigger picture
One of the issues that I don't understand is we are plugging in an artificially higher fixed descent speed (ECON CRZ/295) which actually has a notable impact on the RTA cruise speed, try altering your descent speed to something not too ridiculous ca. 270 kts and see what happens... Invariably you will rarely fly a 295kt descent in UAE
Just a few potential solutions I can think of;
1) Issue the RTA much earlier so the speed change is not as noticable.
2) Limit the CRZ speed alteration to a reasonable figure (m.02?) and issue a variable descent speed schedule (just waiting for the UAE controllers to fire at me for this one!)
3) Trial a few different descent speeds in the next few months to see which works best.
4) Let the pilots use common sense, make an assessment of the current operational environment, and do as much as they can to try and practically achieve the RTA +/- a couple of minutes
5) Bring on parallel approaches
Or just give up, complain and offer no practical solution... Which given 2 years of profit without a hint of any sharing, I can understand...
One of the issues that I don't understand is we are plugging in an artificially higher fixed descent speed (ECON CRZ/295) which actually has a notable impact on the RTA cruise speed, try altering your descent speed to something not too ridiculous ca. 270 kts and see what happens... Invariably you will rarely fly a 295kt descent in UAE
Just a few potential solutions I can think of;
1) Issue the RTA much earlier so the speed change is not as noticable.
2) Limit the CRZ speed alteration to a reasonable figure (m.02?) and issue a variable descent speed schedule (just waiting for the UAE controllers to fire at me for this one!)
3) Trial a few different descent speeds in the next few months to see which works best.
4) Let the pilots use common sense, make an assessment of the current operational environment, and do as much as they can to try and practically achieve the RTA +/- a couple of minutes
5) Bring on parallel approaches
Or just give up, complain and offer no practical solution... Which given 2 years of profit without a hint of any sharing, I can understand...
Last edited by scandistralian; 18th Aug 2013 at 07:53.
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One of the issues that I don't understand is we are plugging in an artificially higher fixed descent speed (ECON CRZ/295)
so for me it's artificially sloooooooow
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Sorry but these days no one's got the time to read through that sort of bad poop English grammar.
Baghdad FIR is probably a good example. If there is an EK aircraft cruising on an RTA and the controller sends it direct to Sidad to increase spacing the FMC will just reduce the cruise speed to keep the crossing time at that fix the same as it was before the direct routing was ordered.
Hope that clarifies.
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When you click reply there are a few buttons, the fourth one from the right, with a little picture of a mountain is used to insert an image.
For the record, again last night, peak arrival time, coming in from Bubin, RTA speed change was about M.01, entered UAE airspace, told to slow to 230 kts, no holding, followed the trombone with a little shortcut at the end, given that the same flight a couple of months ago resulted in 40 minutes holding, there is a fair chance this system could be helping.
For the record, again last night, peak arrival time, coming in from Bubin, RTA speed change was about M.01, entered UAE airspace, told to slow to 230 kts, no holding, followed the trombone with a little shortcut at the end, given that the same flight a couple of months ago resulted in 40 minutes holding, there is a fair chance this system could be helping.
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10 DME ARC - 31 heavies per hour really wow !!!!
You guys must be the hottest approach controllers out there in the world.
Now that you have dropped your mates in it - we expect to see 31 an hour every hour.
Take it from experienced hands - never brag in this game.
Have a look at your own 31 arrivals an hour on flightradar24.com live - more like 20 per hour into DXB right now.
You guys must be the hottest approach controllers out there in the world.
Now that you have dropped your mates in it - we expect to see 31 an hour every hour.
Take it from experienced hands - never brag in this game.
Have a look at your own 31 arrivals an hour on flightradar24.com live - more like 20 per hour into DXB right now.
Last edited by birdseed555; 23rd Aug 2013 at 19:13.
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I'll give just my honest opinion here.
31 arrivals an hour sounds about right to me. Before all the stat con , RTA etc i used to count the total number of arrivals +/-30 mins of my arrival time in to DXB on Dubai Airports Arrival page. More than 30 arrivals meant holding. I used to top up my cont fuel to half an hours holding fuel which worked great.
Now life is easy. I get stat con plus 4T typically for 777 addnl fuel for rush hour arrivals. On top of that I get a note on my FPL that says "!!!This is a stat con flight!!!" , A stat con flight with 4T addnl fuel! Hilarious!
I think DXB approach and director are doing a good job. Can it be better? Of course.
If they ask you to go faster fly 330kts , not 290. If they as you to slow down to 210knots don't ask for 220. After you land on a dry runway with no x-wind vacate at 45kts slowing to taxi speed. Don't slow down to 15 it's on the taxi way.
For controllers...work with us , try to give accurate track miles to touch down , work with our flight ops and try to give relevant min clean speeds to relevant types of aircrafts as you ask for the type of aircraft in first contact. Don't use it only for separation. Also use it for approximate min clean speeds.
I'm tired ...off to my bed.
Good night everyone..
31 arrivals an hour sounds about right to me. Before all the stat con , RTA etc i used to count the total number of arrivals +/-30 mins of my arrival time in to DXB on Dubai Airports Arrival page. More than 30 arrivals meant holding. I used to top up my cont fuel to half an hours holding fuel which worked great.
Now life is easy. I get stat con plus 4T typically for 777 addnl fuel for rush hour arrivals. On top of that I get a note on my FPL that says "!!!This is a stat con flight!!!" , A stat con flight with 4T addnl fuel! Hilarious!
I think DXB approach and director are doing a good job. Can it be better? Of course.
If they ask you to go faster fly 330kts , not 290. If they as you to slow down to 210knots don't ask for 220. After you land on a dry runway with no x-wind vacate at 45kts slowing to taxi speed. Don't slow down to 15 it's on the taxi way.
For controllers...work with us , try to give accurate track miles to touch down , work with our flight ops and try to give relevant min clean speeds to relevant types of aircrafts as you ask for the type of aircraft in first contact. Don't use it only for separation. Also use it for approximate min clean speeds.
I'm tired ...off to my bed.
Good night everyone..
Last edited by thrustidle74; 28th Aug 2013 at 19:25.