An Appropriate Response?
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An Appropriate Response?
A while back I attended the wash up post recurrent ground school. The usual and predictable issues were being raised with the usual various groups’ approach to these.
1. One group was encouraging all to say nothing in order to return home as soon as possible, their view being that any input is likely to be ignored and any serious discussion avoided by those conducting the wash up as they simply were not in a position to comment. I contend they are wrong and in fact unprofessional if they do nothing to at least raise concerns that affect anyone in this professional group.
2. Another group was encouraging all to say nothing but more out of silent protest than a desire to get out early. Akin to sulking - Have the bottle to speak up. Enough voices of concern do eventually reach the top.
3. There were a few who had issues they wanted to raise as no forum had presented itself since the last ground school washup (that was not on a weekend when apparently no one bothers to pitch up). Their issues were generic so no phone call to HQ could supply anything but unhelpful answers or referrals elsewhere. They were hoping to bring larger issues forward for debate and to some extent put the people on the spot in public in the hope of eliciting a more committed, informative reply. I suppose the thinking is that it’s more difficult to brush people off face to face, in front of an audience than on the phone or by email. There is truth in this but tact and firm but polite insistence is a must.
One genuine individual raised a number of issues that were familiar but sensitive. He raised them in a polite non-confrontational way. His arguments held much water and indeed pointed to some embarrassing history.
No one was prepared to debate the points other than to say they were “company policy” or lament about the size of the company implying management was not possible. There was no offer to take forward the issues, and so our self elected representative soldiered on and tried to point out the obvious inadequacies or injustices of the policies themselves.
There was a growing level of impatience from those tasked to answer the questions which finally culminated in the old favorite of “if you don’t like it, you are always free to leave” or words to that effect.
It’s been said before and gets trotted out occasionally. It’s not the first time I’ve heard it and anecdotally it a fairly regular occurrence in many corporations with today’s job market.
What does strike me is the unsuitability of this response. Allegedly we are all valuable “resources” that the company has invested time and money in. Why would or should anyone be so flippant about throwing them away? I imagine that if such an approach was taken to any other company resource of similar value, the individual should be taken to task. After all we save certain sealed and untouched, low cost items on meal trays.
Perhaps we are not that valuable. I think the numbers invested would say otherwise. I can only imagine what would happen if someone actually said. “You know what, I don’t like it. I think I will go. Consider this my resignation. I will mention that you suggested it in the letter”. It could result in serious consequences for the person suggesting that this was a solution to a legitimate concern.
Perhaps then this is simply an intimidation tactic. Anyone knows it simply is not that easy to get up and leave, particularly in this market. The implication then is that you cannot leave so you better lap up whatever is dished out, however out of order it may be. That leaves a bad taste in the mouth as anyone who has heard this flippant riposte well knows. It is perhaps one of the most demeaning, dehumanizing answers that any manager can give, and the suggestion that this is a freedom is ironic in the extreme. I wonder if plantation owners told slaves they were free to stop working anytime they got tired, comfortable in the implied savage beating that would follow.
Intimidation is not the way to deal with things. Can one imagine a captain who said to a genuinely concerned FO that if he didn’t like the way things were being conducted then he could get off the plane. I doubt the company would see the lighter side such CRM.
Why then the duplicity? Are we not a company that promotes attributes like “Problem Solving” and “Leadership, Teamwork and Support”? Do we not teach the cabin crew techniques to handle disgruntled passengers and drum it in with acronyms? Do we not promote “Mutual Respect”? Surely these attributes should be led strongest from the top.
I have little respect for answers of this nature. Genuine queries or concerns should get genuine measured replies without threat or impatience. If the managers are not empowered to give answers then send someone who is, otherwise provide a feedback loop until explanation or satisfaction is achieved. Difficult discussions are a feature of anyone working at the coal face. And even more so when away from the coalface much is necessarily relied upon from the company. Employees have a right to informative answers. Some of our leaders should get with the program, consider their station and lead by example.
Personally next time I hear a response of this nature, I will be encouraged to say nothing more and leave the meeting at the earliest opportunity, if not simply walk out. The discussion has broken down, the insult has been given, and the individual has simply demonstrated his lack of interpersonal and management skills. Why waste further time with anyone of this caliber?
1. One group was encouraging all to say nothing in order to return home as soon as possible, their view being that any input is likely to be ignored and any serious discussion avoided by those conducting the wash up as they simply were not in a position to comment. I contend they are wrong and in fact unprofessional if they do nothing to at least raise concerns that affect anyone in this professional group.
2. Another group was encouraging all to say nothing but more out of silent protest than a desire to get out early. Akin to sulking - Have the bottle to speak up. Enough voices of concern do eventually reach the top.
3. There were a few who had issues they wanted to raise as no forum had presented itself since the last ground school washup (that was not on a weekend when apparently no one bothers to pitch up). Their issues were generic so no phone call to HQ could supply anything but unhelpful answers or referrals elsewhere. They were hoping to bring larger issues forward for debate and to some extent put the people on the spot in public in the hope of eliciting a more committed, informative reply. I suppose the thinking is that it’s more difficult to brush people off face to face, in front of an audience than on the phone or by email. There is truth in this but tact and firm but polite insistence is a must.
One genuine individual raised a number of issues that were familiar but sensitive. He raised them in a polite non-confrontational way. His arguments held much water and indeed pointed to some embarrassing history.
No one was prepared to debate the points other than to say they were “company policy” or lament about the size of the company implying management was not possible. There was no offer to take forward the issues, and so our self elected representative soldiered on and tried to point out the obvious inadequacies or injustices of the policies themselves.
There was a growing level of impatience from those tasked to answer the questions which finally culminated in the old favorite of “if you don’t like it, you are always free to leave” or words to that effect.
It’s been said before and gets trotted out occasionally. It’s not the first time I’ve heard it and anecdotally it a fairly regular occurrence in many corporations with today’s job market.
What does strike me is the unsuitability of this response. Allegedly we are all valuable “resources” that the company has invested time and money in. Why would or should anyone be so flippant about throwing them away? I imagine that if such an approach was taken to any other company resource of similar value, the individual should be taken to task. After all we save certain sealed and untouched, low cost items on meal trays.
Perhaps we are not that valuable. I think the numbers invested would say otherwise. I can only imagine what would happen if someone actually said. “You know what, I don’t like it. I think I will go. Consider this my resignation. I will mention that you suggested it in the letter”. It could result in serious consequences for the person suggesting that this was a solution to a legitimate concern.
Perhaps then this is simply an intimidation tactic. Anyone knows it simply is not that easy to get up and leave, particularly in this market. The implication then is that you cannot leave so you better lap up whatever is dished out, however out of order it may be. That leaves a bad taste in the mouth as anyone who has heard this flippant riposte well knows. It is perhaps one of the most demeaning, dehumanizing answers that any manager can give, and the suggestion that this is a freedom is ironic in the extreme. I wonder if plantation owners told slaves they were free to stop working anytime they got tired, comfortable in the implied savage beating that would follow.
Intimidation is not the way to deal with things. Can one imagine a captain who said to a genuinely concerned FO that if he didn’t like the way things were being conducted then he could get off the plane. I doubt the company would see the lighter side such CRM.
Why then the duplicity? Are we not a company that promotes attributes like “Problem Solving” and “Leadership, Teamwork and Support”? Do we not teach the cabin crew techniques to handle disgruntled passengers and drum it in with acronyms? Do we not promote “Mutual Respect”? Surely these attributes should be led strongest from the top.
I have little respect for answers of this nature. Genuine queries or concerns should get genuine measured replies without threat or impatience. If the managers are not empowered to give answers then send someone who is, otherwise provide a feedback loop until explanation or satisfaction is achieved. Difficult discussions are a feature of anyone working at the coal face. And even more so when away from the coalface much is necessarily relied upon from the company. Employees have a right to informative answers. Some of our leaders should get with the program, consider their station and lead by example.
Personally next time I hear a response of this nature, I will be encouraged to say nothing more and leave the meeting at the earliest opportunity, if not simply walk out. The discussion has broken down, the insult has been given, and the individual has simply demonstrated his lack of interpersonal and management skills. Why waste further time with anyone of this caliber?
Sounds like you have just joined the rest of us in Group One? Part of the problem is the good guys don't tend to put themselves forward for mgmt roles. Hence we end up with the flight operations management that we deserve? I don't work in the M.E but it is no different in my company.
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Eloquently put what each and every pilot feels after their second or third wash-up.
Let's never forget, it's Aviation and it's in the Middle East. A combination that leads to this display of arrogance and disdain at the fastest rate.
The only thing we can do, is to observe how copy-paste works. Simlpy remember the former best airline, the flying bank, the best pilots, best maintained aircraft and how their arrogance in trying to outgrow the incapable competition by aquiring multiple crap airlines, thinking that their oh so superiour management skills would dominate the lot. Many former pilots from there are working here now ......
The top-down only managemnt style never works for long. It produces robots, and robots work better until an unexpected bug blocks the system, because they are not trained, much less entitled for a fix and management is no longer capable to react, because the self loathing meetings produce a lot of awards, but no solutions.
I simply hope that i am able to leave before the emperor realises he's riding without dish-dash and even without designer underwear.
Let's never forget, it's Aviation and it's in the Middle East. A combination that leads to this display of arrogance and disdain at the fastest rate.
The only thing we can do, is to observe how copy-paste works. Simlpy remember the former best airline, the flying bank, the best pilots, best maintained aircraft and how their arrogance in trying to outgrow the incapable competition by aquiring multiple crap airlines, thinking that their oh so superiour management skills would dominate the lot. Many former pilots from there are working here now ......
The top-down only managemnt style never works for long. It produces robots, and robots work better until an unexpected bug blocks the system, because they are not trained, much less entitled for a fix and management is no longer capable to react, because the self loathing meetings produce a lot of awards, but no solutions.
I simply hope that i am able to leave before the emperor realises he's riding without dish-dash and even without designer underwear.
Last edited by glofish; 6th May 2013 at 03:41.
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The point is you can't leave, at least not without serious hardship (financial and otherwise) to yourself and family. You settle in Dubai, move around the world, give up seniority at home to go there, and they know it.
EK also has little to no trouble (with the occasional exceptional periods in the past) attracting qualified candidates that believe its the Shangri La of aviation. Therefore Ek has little or no incentive to do anything at all to recognize pilot complaints and act on them, hence the retort..go ahead and leave. Its been like that for an awfully long time and it seems to work for them because rarely do enough people leave at one time to cause issues for reasons stated above.
They kinda got you by the short and curlies. There is (good) life after EK should you end up leaving though.
EK also has little to no trouble (with the occasional exceptional periods in the past) attracting qualified candidates that believe its the Shangri La of aviation. Therefore Ek has little or no incentive to do anything at all to recognize pilot complaints and act on them, hence the retort..go ahead and leave. Its been like that for an awfully long time and it seems to work for them because rarely do enough people leave at one time to cause issues for reasons stated above.
They kinda got you by the short and curlies. There is (good) life after EK should you end up leaving though.
@Pixy
You are probably the most level headed, clear thinking individual I have read on these forums for years.
Keep doing what you do Pixy. It is a breath of fresh air around here!
You are probably the most level headed, clear thinking individual I have read on these forums for years.
Keep doing what you do Pixy. It is a breath of fresh air around here!
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Why would or should anyone be so flippant about throwing them away?
Because the "managers" are incompetent and have no managerial skills to deal with issues....and are not held accountable for for wasteage of company assets (expensively trained) staff....
Because the "managers" are incompetent and have no managerial skills to deal with issues....and are not held accountable for for wasteage of company assets (expensively trained) staff....
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By the way: Did you guys fill out the survey that popped up on the portal two weeks ago?
If not you missed a great opportunity to grade our dear leaders!!!
At least someone asked and i gave our leaders the lowest possible ranking, only reflecting the truth.
Hopefully that will raise some eyebrows .....
If not you missed a great opportunity to grade our dear leaders!!!
At least someone asked and i gave our leaders the lowest possible ranking, only reflecting the truth.
Hopefully that will raise some eyebrows .....
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Pixy, superb post, detailed and yet succinct.
As the narrative was once said....
"If you don’t go out there on the front foot, and communicate with your staff and treat them with respect and involve them in the business, then you won’t get much commitment from them"
I'm guessing based on what has been discussed that the cost of engaging people is higher than the cost of replacing attrition.
As the narrative was once said....
"If you don’t go out there on the front foot, and communicate with your staff and treat them with respect and involve them in the business, then you won’t get much commitment from them"
I'm guessing based on what has been discussed that the cost of engaging people is higher than the cost of replacing attrition.
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Glofish, if you think a survey on the portal is going to change anything, or even be read by the people who need to change, you must be new here.
Surveys are a cheap and easy way to make it look like the senior management are interested in what we think. I think, after years of the "if you don't like it leave" attitude -and the washups - we have got the general idea about how interested they really are.
I'd really like to be wrong.
Surveys are a cheap and easy way to make it look like the senior management are interested in what we think. I think, after years of the "if you don't like it leave" attitude -and the washups - we have got the general idea about how interested they really are.
I'd really like to be wrong.
Excellent post, Pixy, & good to air your frustrations but I regret to say that it is part of aviation. It has been like this throughout my career in the Uk, Europe and Middle East. Your "washups" (new term for me), surveys, Pilot/Management meetings will never change the arrogant stand taken by most Management teams. Something very strange seems to happen to certain pilots when they take up a management roll and they quickly lose touch with their own backgrounds. The other management "trained" ( I use the word for lack of others) group never seemed to have the basic skills to communicate with the flying group. They quickly lose the motivation too.
In the ME, you have this huge corruption problem.That stops any motion in it's tracks once the situation is regarded as unlikely to get past the corrupted individual who is there through nepotism alone. Your only option for an enjoyable stint is to back-off completely & just do what you are contracted to do. Fly, enjoy, get back to Base, sign the Tech-log & enjoy your time off with family & friends as best you can in the region. Leave the irritation behind you.
It is not just the Middle East. I could give countless boring tales from my own experience but nothing will change and never will.I will offer one tale though . Sometimes, Management know & lay down, openly, the ground rules. At interview, one company told me that a job offer was likely. The CP leaned forward and said; "Look, we just want you to come down here & fly our planes. We don't want you in Training, we don't want you in Management, we don't want you hanging round the Office on your days off. If any of that changes, we will tell you" . Actually, I liked the honesty but something better came by.
Pixy, enjoy,your flying, sign the Tech log & go home. You will live to see a fruitful & enjoyable retirement.
In the ME, you have this huge corruption problem.That stops any motion in it's tracks once the situation is regarded as unlikely to get past the corrupted individual who is there through nepotism alone. Your only option for an enjoyable stint is to back-off completely & just do what you are contracted to do. Fly, enjoy, get back to Base, sign the Tech-log & enjoy your time off with family & friends as best you can in the region. Leave the irritation behind you.
It is not just the Middle East. I could give countless boring tales from my own experience but nothing will change and never will.I will offer one tale though . Sometimes, Management know & lay down, openly, the ground rules. At interview, one company told me that a job offer was likely. The CP leaned forward and said; "Look, we just want you to come down here & fly our planes. We don't want you in Training, we don't want you in Management, we don't want you hanging round the Office on your days off. If any of that changes, we will tell you" . Actually, I liked the honesty but something better came by.
Pixy, enjoy,your flying, sign the Tech log & go home. You will live to see a fruitful & enjoyable retirement.
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Sadly, corporate management the world over today follows the same philosophy when it comes to employees; the beatings will continue until moral improves.
So as mentioned, go to work, enjoy the 'job', come home and spark up the BBQ to enjoy dinner and a glass of vin.
So as mentioned, go to work, enjoy the 'job', come home and spark up the BBQ to enjoy dinner and a glass of vin.
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Just see how those working on the second floor of A building were treated when they had given some blood sweat and tears to make the training department a better enviornment.
Pixy, we all feel your pain, but when the hours were pushed into the 90s and there was a "cry" from the washup meetings, yes the response was the same. As long as guys from Ryan Air and elsewhere line up at the door, knowing what the current t/c's are, those in the door will just have to do their masters' bidding. As been said, it's not they disrespect you, you are just not respected as a valuable assest to this corporation. You are easily replaced. There is nothing you can do to enhance the bottom line of this corp. other than fly your a/c safely. And you're doing that to save one's own a** anyway.
Pixy, we all feel your pain, but when the hours were pushed into the 90s and there was a "cry" from the washup meetings, yes the response was the same. As long as guys from Ryan Air and elsewhere line up at the door, knowing what the current t/c's are, those in the door will just have to do their masters' bidding. As been said, it's not they disrespect you, you are just not respected as a valuable assest to this corporation. You are easily replaced. There is nothing you can do to enhance the bottom line of this corp. other than fly your a/c safely. And you're doing that to save one's own a** anyway.
Last edited by Panther 88; 6th May 2013 at 19:58.
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Pixy
Why are you surprised.
There has never been anyone hired in the Flt Ops mgt team who has a vision to improve and foster good relations with the pilot group. The philosophy within the co is to prevent "empowerment".
No attempt whatsoever to engage in industry leading standards when it comes to cultivating loyalty.
The funny thing is it would cost nothing but be invaluable if they were to throw a couple of tickets to a sports event each week to those who have gone "above and beyond" within the pilot group.
Or how about a casual pizza beer night once a quarter for pilots & mgt to interact on a human level. Nope - ain't going to happen.
How about a water cannon salute and dinner drinks for those who helped build the airline - when they retire. Not going to happen (the above two examples are however done by us for us - via EPC)
These things were done at my previous carriers - and it was incredible how much it was appreciated even in the face of tough times.
Any Co that does not engage in a respectful posture to their employees ultimately pay the price: look at Ryanair. The timing here is not right BUT wait - as always there will be a shift and when that happens the cost will be high.
What you get here is:
Increase in overtime threshold from 78-92via one page email
Eradication of ALT cities in US except destination - one page email.
Liquidation of Training Dept leaders - FCN
Hiring of DECs in complete disregard for seniority (did we even get an email?)
Generic Sick leave warnings to all & sundry (impossible to have a clean sheet with these rosters - that's a quote from clinic Dr,)
Min rest on ULR pattern ignoring ASR feedback.
Letter telling those pushing late to prepare to be mentored by the "top 10%"
Punitive disciplinary culture....
....The list goes on.
So do as I do...do your job professionally then disengage when the parking break is set. Then when you are asked in social & pvt settings in the greater Dubai community - tell the truth.
The other guys who are "married" to EK - trainers, CRM, Assnt CPs, Recruitment, Safety guys etc ... Let them....it invariably ends in divorce (cue Standards, Training & Boeing Assnt chiefs - amongst many others)
For me EK is an FB not a wife...
....unfortunately with the deal above however....you are the "receiver".
f.
Now can someone please start the "****** season" thread ...my missus won't leave if I start it ; >
Why are you surprised.
There has never been anyone hired in the Flt Ops mgt team who has a vision to improve and foster good relations with the pilot group. The philosophy within the co is to prevent "empowerment".
No attempt whatsoever to engage in industry leading standards when it comes to cultivating loyalty.
The funny thing is it would cost nothing but be invaluable if they were to throw a couple of tickets to a sports event each week to those who have gone "above and beyond" within the pilot group.
Or how about a casual pizza beer night once a quarter for pilots & mgt to interact on a human level. Nope - ain't going to happen.
How about a water cannon salute and dinner drinks for those who helped build the airline - when they retire. Not going to happen (the above two examples are however done by us for us - via EPC)
These things were done at my previous carriers - and it was incredible how much it was appreciated even in the face of tough times.
Any Co that does not engage in a respectful posture to their employees ultimately pay the price: look at Ryanair. The timing here is not right BUT wait - as always there will be a shift and when that happens the cost will be high.
What you get here is:
Increase in overtime threshold from 78-92via one page email
Eradication of ALT cities in US except destination - one page email.
Liquidation of Training Dept leaders - FCN
Hiring of DECs in complete disregard for seniority (did we even get an email?)
Generic Sick leave warnings to all & sundry (impossible to have a clean sheet with these rosters - that's a quote from clinic Dr,)
Min rest on ULR pattern ignoring ASR feedback.
Letter telling those pushing late to prepare to be mentored by the "top 10%"
Punitive disciplinary culture....
....The list goes on.
So do as I do...do your job professionally then disengage when the parking break is set. Then when you are asked in social & pvt settings in the greater Dubai community - tell the truth.
The other guys who are "married" to EK - trainers, CRM, Assnt CPs, Recruitment, Safety guys etc ... Let them....it invariably ends in divorce (cue Standards, Training & Boeing Assnt chiefs - amongst many others)
For me EK is an FB not a wife...
....unfortunately with the deal above however....you are the "receiver".
f.
Now can someone please start the "****** season" thread ...my missus won't leave if I start it ; >
Last edited by fliion; 7th May 2013 at 11:45.
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They (like I) have tried this too many times in the past only to be met with the same "leave"response, intimidating emails, bonuses withheld and a few even threatened with dismissal. How many times do you piss into the wind before you figure out that its just not worth it? I think all of us aspire to a sensible approach to employee/employer relations but it will take a major change in mandate from the top.
Don't piss on my head, then tell me it's raining
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Fliion...very disappointed with your cynicism; of course you get recognized when you do a good job.....fleet send you a personal letter when you don't call sick for a year.....you are commended on your "professionalism".
Even FOs get these letters. However, in an interesting analogy to Pixy's comment about slaves having a choice about working in the cotton fields...FOs have a choice about calling sick; however, they just don't get their command courses if they do.
Even FOs get these letters. However, in an interesting analogy to Pixy's comment about slaves having a choice about working in the cotton fields...FOs have a choice about calling sick; however, they just don't get their command courses if they do.
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Fearless...how could I have missed it...sorry bud.
And hence why I got sick this year from my fevered FO:
Me: "why didn't you call sick?"
FO: "Interview next month"
Me: "Ah, of course"
f.
And hence why I got sick this year from my fevered FO:
Me: "why didn't you call sick?"
FO: "Interview next month"
Me: "Ah, of course"
f.
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And hence why I got sick this year from my fevered FO:
Me: "why didn't you call sick?"
FO: "Interview next month"
Me: "Ah, of course"
f.
, another new potential commander with neither the gumption nor common sense to make a good decision...
I sometimes regret being a career F/O
