Dubai New SID STARS debate
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Dubai New SID STARS debate
At last a sensible attempt to implement some reasonable plan to get traffic moving more smoothly in and out of OMDB.
It will be interesting to see how the new system plays out, at first sight it looks like a plan that could work. At long last, poor ATC will have a chance to relax a little more if the routes are allowed to be followed. The problem with controllers is they like to control, time will tell how well this will work out. Good luck to all and make sure the TCAS is set correctly for its implementation period, there should be some fun and games.
It will be interesting to see how the new system plays out, at first sight it looks like a plan that could work. At long last, poor ATC will have a chance to relax a little more if the routes are allowed to be followed. The problem with controllers is they like to control, time will tell how well this will work out. Good luck to all and make sure the TCAS is set correctly for its implementation period, there should be some fun and games.
Forgive the stupid question, or not, but how exactly is this going to help arrival and departures. The way I read it we will still be all be going through Ranbi into Bahrain, and the change to the STARS wont increase the amount of aircraft landing? The landing flow rate will be the same. Unless we get parallel approaches, or reduced seperation on final, which with more 380's wont be easy to achieve.
What am I missing ? Am I having a thick moment? or will extra track miles on the arrival help?
What am I missing ? Am I having a thick moment? or will extra track miles on the arrival help?
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I think if you flew the entire STAR as a CDA you'd probably save a lot of fuel as opposed to holding for 30 mins or whatever...? Only problem with that is if we do get shortcuts we will be ridiculously high!
Maybe it will also reduce the instances where we need to slow down to 250kts passing in the region of Doha etc?
Hell it's got to work, the Germans use it a lot and their known for efficiency.
Maybe it will also reduce the instances where we need to slow down to 250kts passing in the region of Doha etc?
Hell it's got to work, the Germans use it a lot and their known for efficiency.
Last edited by Easy Ryder; 18th Aug 2012 at 07:51.
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Won't make one iota of difference until Emirates stop scheduling their aircraft to all arrive at the same time, or a centralised Flow management system is introduced. We know what 
chance there is of that happening.
chance there is of that happening.
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Well it certainly worked in the sim!
Arrivals was much more relaxed, departures with two departure sectors and three gates replacing RANBI got to be an improvement! Plus 8nm spacing outbound instead of 10nm. So by next week we will have fours gates, with MI, replacing the one bottle neck of RANBI!!
Then all the inbound SHJ traffic will be routed mostly away from DXB traffic another improvement.
All hinges on people doing what they are supposed to be doing!! but ACC will be grounding any one who doesn't so education will be quick we hope!!
Arrivals was much more relaxed, departures with two departure sectors and three gates replacing RANBI got to be an improvement! Plus 8nm spacing outbound instead of 10nm. So by next week we will have fours gates, with MI, replacing the one bottle neck of RANBI!!
Then all the inbound SHJ traffic will be routed mostly away from DXB traffic another improvement.
All hinges on people doing what they are supposed to be doing!! but ACC will be grounding any one who doesn't so education will be quick we hope!!
It will be an interesting month or so From Aug 23 that's for sure.
Unfortunately Bahrain was supposed to be allowing more than one gate, from the UAE into their airspace, from August 23 but as these thing go around here, it didn't happen. Early to mid 2013 for that one, inshallah.
The STARS will be a mixed blessing too. They will save a lot of RT hopefully and all going to plan, the final downwind leg should usually be trimmed to have acft turning base at 10-15NM final. Unfortunately I can't see CDA's yet because there will still be the requirement to be 13 000ft or below still on the Star. We will still often need you as low as possible to get departures away and intergrate the two stars into the downwind vertically seperated. If you want to level off or descend at less than the nominal rate, you must request it first. The big problem is still going to be flow control and unfortunately there are just too many aircraft arriving at certain times of the day and with no real penalties for aircraft arriving late or early of their supposed "slots", there will still be plenty of holding. The ACC is due to start training for their Arrivals Manager system soon, to be in use early next year (again inshallah). This should make quite a difference to providing early, accurate EAT's and limiting extra track miles in the TMA. Something I think is long overdue.
As ATC's we have been instructed to let everyone fly the published SID's and STAR's as much as possible come cutover. There will likely be a lot more hold downs on departure I imagine, so please don't expect the verticle limits to be cancelled either. Although we have all had training in our SIM, it will be a very steep learning curve for the first few weeks in the real world. While a lot of operators should be able to follow the new procedures from day one, unfortunately we also expect there will be a fair bit of confusion and probable level busts too. As jack schidt said, keep a good eye on TCAS and the other one out the window!
NB these are my personal comments, not an official word from ATC!
Unfortunately Bahrain was supposed to be allowing more than one gate, from the UAE into their airspace, from August 23 but as these thing go around here, it didn't happen. Early to mid 2013 for that one, inshallah.
The STARS will be a mixed blessing too. They will save a lot of RT hopefully and all going to plan, the final downwind leg should usually be trimmed to have acft turning base at 10-15NM final. Unfortunately I can't see CDA's yet because there will still be the requirement to be 13 000ft or below still on the Star. We will still often need you as low as possible to get departures away and intergrate the two stars into the downwind vertically seperated. If you want to level off or descend at less than the nominal rate, you must request it first. The big problem is still going to be flow control and unfortunately there are just too many aircraft arriving at certain times of the day and with no real penalties for aircraft arriving late or early of their supposed "slots", there will still be plenty of holding. The ACC is due to start training for their Arrivals Manager system soon, to be in use early next year (again inshallah). This should make quite a difference to providing early, accurate EAT's and limiting extra track miles in the TMA. Something I think is long overdue.
As ATC's we have been instructed to let everyone fly the published SID's and STAR's as much as possible come cutover. There will likely be a lot more hold downs on departure I imagine, so please don't expect the verticle limits to be cancelled either. Although we have all had training in our SIM, it will be a very steep learning curve for the first few weeks in the real world. While a lot of operators should be able to follow the new procedures from day one, unfortunately we also expect there will be a fair bit of confusion and probable level busts too. As jack schidt said, keep a good eye on TCAS and the other one out the window!
NB these are my personal comments, not an official word from ATC!
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From a Tower point of view it's difficult to see that this will have much of an impact on the arrival or departure rate.
There are a few hidden gems,like now requiring two minutes dep separation behind a340's due to their performance relative to other heavies. Also if everything is going to fly the SID there will be a bit more space required behind the Ranbi turboprops that used to benefit from a right turn to clear the climb out. Free flow of Ranbi deps from Sharjah can only mean delaying a Ranbi dep from Dubai.
Maybe it will be better than us Tower guys imagine but none of us have had sim time or training of any kind on this so the first few days should be a pretty steep learning curve.
There are a few hidden gems,like now requiring two minutes dep separation behind a340's due to their performance relative to other heavies. Also if everything is going to fly the SID there will be a bit more space required behind the Ranbi turboprops that used to benefit from a right turn to clear the climb out. Free flow of Ranbi deps from Sharjah can only mean delaying a Ranbi dep from Dubai.
Maybe it will be better than us Tower guys imagine but none of us have had sim time or training of any kind on this so the first few days should be a pretty steep learning curve.
In reality the new SIDs/STARs just formalise a few techniques we use as ATC when things get a little complex. Certainly a positive step from the ATC side of the fence. Will be much better when Bahrain get on board with the extra FIR departure points.
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Your management needs to get on board with who is restricting these 'departure points'. It's not Bahrain. However, that's not what they are lying to you..... sorry, 'telling' you........
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Even though there are three outbound routes via "RANBI" there are still restrictions that will apply. All traffic to Northern Europe (NE) will be on the northern route. Traffic to Southern Europe and North Africa (SE) on the middle route and traffic landing Bahrain on the southern route. This is done in anticipation of the routes extending into Bahrain in the near future.
If TWR can sequence them at the holding point to be NE-SE-NE-SE-Bah-etc then you can expect a very healthy flow.
A few things to keep in mind though:
1. Due to the convergence at BALUS, the 3 routes and o/flyers, flightlevels may be restricted at first. Summer is coming to an end so this will improve.
2. Offset for wake may not be possible due the proximity of the routes.
As with most radically new procedures there will be c0ckups at fist, but all in all this can only make things better.
If TWR can sequence them at the holding point to be NE-SE-NE-SE-Bah-etc then you can expect a very healthy flow.
A few things to keep in mind though:
1. Due to the convergence at BALUS, the 3 routes and o/flyers, flightlevels may be restricted at first. Summer is coming to an end so this will improve.
2. Offset for wake may not be possible due the proximity of the routes.
As with most radically new procedures there will be c0ckups at fist, but all in all this can only make things better.
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What has happened to the Eastern departure points? We seem to have lost TARDI so that most traffic going in that direction now has only RIKET as a departure gate. There are going to be some flow control issues there.
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Kimoki
The SE DEP is still there, off DXB RWY12 Anvix1G, RWY30 Anvix1F. Any points outside of that are still filed as per FPL. So in the past where you specifically filed either TARDI or GIDIS DEP's, you now file ANVIX, which is the DEP termination point, then TARDI or GIDIS onwards.
The SE DEP is still there, off DXB RWY12 Anvix1G, RWY30 Anvix1F. Any points outside of that are still filed as per FPL. So in the past where you specifically filed either TARDI or GIDIS DEP's, you now file ANVIX, which is the DEP termination point, then TARDI or GIDIS onwards.
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Well, that died quicker than expected.
One thing to note - having read the NOTAMs that have been published for this change, I note that there is absolutely no mention of the fact that extra flow control will almost certainly be imposed for at least the first week, yes - week - all 5 watches need to be exposed to the new procedures, not withstanding the inevitable level busts/errors/misunderstandings/inability to comply. I would therefore suggest that you all think very carefully about what "contingency" fuel might be required during this period.
Another thing - one of the main things that has been hammered into us humble ATCOs is that our hands are now very firmly manacled behind our backs and shortcuts, both on arrival and departure are much less likely to happen.
In a similar vein - subsequent climb for departures is likely to be much more restricted than previously, due to the large number of crossings between STARS and SIDS which we now can't take you off of to facilitate climb/descent! This is what is called progress!
One thing to note - having read the NOTAMs that have been published for this change, I note that there is absolutely no mention of the fact that extra flow control will almost certainly be imposed for at least the first week, yes - week - all 5 watches need to be exposed to the new procedures, not withstanding the inevitable level busts/errors/misunderstandings/inability to comply. I would therefore suggest that you all think very carefully about what "contingency" fuel might be required during this period.
Another thing - one of the main things that has been hammered into us humble ATCOs is that our hands are now very firmly manacled behind our backs and shortcuts, both on arrival and departure are much less likely to happen.
In a similar vein - subsequent climb for departures is likely to be much more restricted than previously, due to the large number of crossings between STARS and SIDS which we now can't take you off of to facilitate climb/descent! This is what is called progress!
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I dont think it died a death, I think this thread is more like the foetus that is about to be born (23rd) and turn into an angry monster possibly ;-D or a big cuddly bear to be embraced!
RNAV SIDs and STARs work a treat if properly thought out. Many aircrew in Dubai fly these during our normal weekly work when flying to "sensible" places. Take for example Frankfurt, it is organised chaos on the RNAV STARS but it really works a treat! (by sensible I mean RNAV organised airspace).
I think the success of this new "improved" venture will become embraced and a success or failure depending on how well it is handled by all in the first week or 2. Like meeting a person for the first time, it is said it takes 30 seconds to dislike someone and hours to regain any idea of liking them. If this venture is not embraced by all and executed well, it will only take a SID and STAR for many to say instantly it is a success or failure!
RNAV SIDs and STARs work a treat if properly thought out. Many aircrew in Dubai fly these during our normal weekly work when flying to "sensible" places. Take for example Frankfurt, it is organised chaos on the RNAV STARS but it really works a treat! (by sensible I mean RNAV organised airspace).
I think the success of this new "improved" venture will become embraced and a success or failure depending on how well it is handled by all in the first week or 2. Like meeting a person for the first time, it is said it takes 30 seconds to dislike someone and hours to regain any idea of liking them. If this venture is not embraced by all and executed well, it will only take a SID and STAR for many to say instantly it is a success or failure!
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I don't think it's a question of whether we want to embrace the procedures - more a complete change in mindset.
example - although you may not believe it, most of us want to provide the best sevice that we can with the limited resources available (eg airspace, procedures and equipment). However, we have now been firmly instructed that we are expected to leave pretty much every aircraft to fly the complete STAR /SID - so that even if we could (and normally would) offer, for example, direct UKRIM - we are now expected to ensure that you fly the extra 60 miles or so that the full STAR provides. We are told that this is what the airlines want, so that track miles to touchdown are precise but something tells me there's a bit of misunderstanding in there somewhere.....forgive me if I return to my metaphor of doing ATC with both hands manacled behind the back - doesn't seem like providing much of a service to me either!
Be assured that we will be striving to find the best way to use these procedures to the benefit of all but our choices may be very limited indeed.
example - although you may not believe it, most of us want to provide the best sevice that we can with the limited resources available (eg airspace, procedures and equipment). However, we have now been firmly instructed that we are expected to leave pretty much every aircraft to fly the complete STAR /SID - so that even if we could (and normally would) offer, for example, direct UKRIM - we are now expected to ensure that you fly the extra 60 miles or so that the full STAR provides. We are told that this is what the airlines want, so that track miles to touchdown are precise but something tells me there's a bit of misunderstanding in there somewhere.....forgive me if I return to my metaphor of doing ATC with both hands manacled behind the back - doesn't seem like providing much of a service to me either!
Be assured that we will be striving to find the best way to use these procedures to the benefit of all but our choices may be very limited indeed.
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There certainly seems to be some disconnect here because the following is from the briefing document provided to EK crews regarding the new procedures. If the procedures are not applied with the flexibility to shortcut aircraft to improve efficiency then the whole point is lost.
On first contact Dubai Approach they will advise “Expect to turn base at”. Once established downwind if ATC decide that they are unable to turn at planned fix then ATC will provide radar vectors.
Pilots can expect to fly the trombone when traffic levels in the CTA are elevated however if there is reduced traffic during quiet periods ATC may offer a track shortening
DESDI direct RULAM direct DB414 for 12L/R or,
BUBIN / GIRMI direct LOVAL for 30L/R
If ATC want to shortcut a flight they will notify the crews with associated track miles. For example:
i.e. “Emirates123, direct LOVOL available, 55 track miles to touchdown if able.”
On first contact Dubai Approach they will advise “Expect to turn base at”. Once established downwind if ATC decide that they are unable to turn at planned fix then ATC will provide radar vectors.
Pilots can expect to fly the trombone when traffic levels in the CTA are elevated however if there is reduced traffic during quiet periods ATC may offer a track shortening
DESDI direct RULAM direct DB414 for 12L/R or,
BUBIN / GIRMI direct LOVAL for 30L/R
If ATC want to shortcut a flight they will notify the crews with associated track miles. For example:
i.e. “Emirates123, direct LOVOL available, 55 track miles to touchdown if able.”
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There certainly seems to be some disconnect here because the following is from the briefing document provided to EK crews regarding the new procedures. If the procedures are not applied with the flexibility to shortcut aircraft to improve efficiency then the whole point is lost.
On first contact Dubai Approach they will advise “Expect to turn base at”. Once established downwind if ATC decide that they are unable to turn at planned fix then ATC will provide radar vectors.
Pilots can expect to fly the trombone when traffic levels in the CTA are elevated however if there is reduced traffic during quiet periods ATC may offer a track shortening
On first contact Dubai Approach they will advise “Expect to turn base at”. Once established downwind if ATC decide that they are unable to turn at planned fix then ATC will provide radar vectors.
Pilots can expect to fly the trombone when traffic levels in the CTA are elevated however if there is reduced traffic during quiet periods ATC may offer a track shortening
We've been told that more than 3 aircraft in the CTA, no direct routings. Aircraft WILL be expected to fly the full STAR, if a shortcut is required it will be issued by the Director position, who is required to issue track miles to touchdown as well. Working Arrivals sector, it is rarely possible to guess at where the Director will turn you base, so you as pilot will NOT be told on first contact with Arrivals where you're going to be turning base.
The days of shortcuts and direct routings are over......sorry.
