EK's Arbitrary 55t Requirement
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EK's Arbitrary 55t Requirement
Where did this come from, because 55t seems to determine a whole lot in EK.
B717/A318 = >55t (almost)
B747/A380 = >55t
very different aircraft............very different missions. So where is the sliding scale? 2000 hours on the 717-200/A318 is the same as 2000 hours on the B747/A380 for EK?
Doesn't make sense to me guys/gals, maybe someone can explain the logic.
B717/A318 = >55t (almost)
B747/A380 = >55t
very different aircraft............very different missions. So where is the sliding scale? 2000 hours on the 717-200/A318 is the same as 2000 hours on the B747/A380 for EK?
Doesn't make sense to me guys/gals, maybe someone can explain the logic.
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True, however;
BAe146-RJ100/Embraer190/195 = 51/52.3T. Nearly same weights & mission > different philosophy/type of operation.
You can't tell me 2.7T or even 5T for that matter makes that much of a diff.
BAe146-RJ100/Embraer190/195 = 51/52.3T. Nearly same weights & mission > different philosophy/type of operation.
You can't tell me 2.7T or even 5T for that matter makes that much of a diff.
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Absolutely ridiculous!
To sum it up (and without stepping on anyones toes): It is an absolutely ridiculous requirement that, short from satisfying someones personal belief of what makes a good captain, does absolutely nothing except that it prevents a large number of otherwise and apparently qualified individuals from even going through a command selection process!
Will
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way of the world old fruit.
My commision to the RAF was ended because someone had the effrontery to assualt me with some kitchen knives and a pistol. I could not meet the joining criteria and that was that.
Sometimes we don't get the break we feel we deserve.
What are you currently flying?
My commision to the RAF was ended because someone had the effrontery to assualt me with some kitchen knives and a pistol. I could not meet the joining criteria and that was that.
Sometimes we don't get the break we feel we deserve.
What are you currently flying?
It was a requirement that came from well up the chain of command, and was nothing more than a window-dressing, "being seen to do something" exersize in the wake of Melbourne.
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I'm not familiar with what happened in Melbourne.
But, setting a 55t floor for entry or advancement completely disregards mission compatibility. 55t and above is a broad category. wouldn't it be sensible to be more specific, for example:
55t -104t = 2000 hours
105t - 159t = 1000
160t or greater = 500
Wouldn't a sliding scale as such provide more flexibility for advancing current crews and hiring future crews?
This is just as arbitrary but at least more specific.
But, setting a 55t floor for entry or advancement completely disregards mission compatibility. 55t and above is a broad category. wouldn't it be sensible to be more specific, for example:
55t -104t = 2000 hours
105t - 159t = 1000
160t or greater = 500
Wouldn't a sliding scale as such provide more flexibility for advancing current crews and hiring future crews?
This is just as arbitrary but at least more specific.
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Wizofoz: Which of course also brings home the point as I don't believe the Captain on the 345 in MEL used to fly aircraft <55T (please correct me if I'm wrong). So that it came as a result of MEL, although true, makes no sense!?!?!?
Eagerbeaver: While I'm sorry to hear about how your career in the RAF ended I don't believe it has many similarities with the EK arbitrary 55T requirement (good title for the thread by the way
).
In your situation your personal circumstances changed resulting in you not meeting the requirements for the RAF. As sad as that is it is the same in the airline world if you were to loose your medical for example. That is not what has happened in EK.
In EK there are a whole lots of people that joined while this requirement did not exists (i.e. pre MEL) and while the same qualifications that got them the interview and that also got them through the interview did NOT change the airline decided to change the criteria for upgrades.
So with the risk of sounding like a kid here it's just not fair that the people recruited while the rule did not apply are subject to it
(and before anyone starts shooting at me; I know that is how it is and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it, ok 
)
I believe that everyone should be given a fair chance. Sure there are guys that have flown aircraft <55T that are not qualified to be captains, just like there are people that have flown aircraft >55T that are not qualified to be captains either. Like I said: everyone should be given the same chance. Have a command selection when the time comes. Do a sim-check and take it from there. If you pass and are deemed qualified then you are (55T or not). And if you don't pass then wait for the next chance.
Now for people that join since the 55T requirement was put in place it is a bit of a different situation. They knew upon joining (one would hope) that they would need x hours in aircraft over 55T before they could upgrade.
Anyhow, we don't live in a fair environment (or world for that matter) and it's not going to change for the foreseeable future so time to suck it up and smile
Will
Eagerbeaver: While I'm sorry to hear about how your career in the RAF ended I don't believe it has many similarities with the EK arbitrary 55T requirement (good title for the thread by the way
). In your situation your personal circumstances changed resulting in you not meeting the requirements for the RAF. As sad as that is it is the same in the airline world if you were to loose your medical for example. That is not what has happened in EK.
In EK there are a whole lots of people that joined while this requirement did not exists (i.e. pre MEL) and while the same qualifications that got them the interview and that also got them through the interview did NOT change the airline decided to change the criteria for upgrades.
So with the risk of sounding like a kid here it's just not fair that the people recruited while the rule did not apply are subject to it
(and before anyone starts shooting at me; I know that is how it is and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it, ok )I believe that everyone should be given a fair chance. Sure there are guys that have flown aircraft <55T that are not qualified to be captains, just like there are people that have flown aircraft >55T that are not qualified to be captains either. Like I said: everyone should be given the same chance. Have a command selection when the time comes. Do a sim-check and take it from there. If you pass and are deemed qualified then you are (55T or not). And if you don't pass then wait for the next chance.
Now for people that join since the 55T requirement was put in place it is a bit of a different situation. They knew upon joining (one would hope) that they would need x hours in aircraft over 55T before they could upgrade.
Anyhow, we don't live in a fair environment (or world for that matter) and it's not going to change for the foreseeable future so time to suck it up and smile
Will
Wizofoz: Which of course also brings home the point as I don't believe the Captain on the 345 in MEL used to fly aircraft <55T (please correct me if I'm wrong). So that it came as a result of MEL, although true, makes no sense!?!?!?
It's just policy...
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For those of you that have been here 5 minutes, the 55 ton requirement started about 8 years ago.
Lots of BAe146 pilots arrived from all over but mainly Kiwis and Ozzies and a couple had some probs in initial training, this had really nothing to do with the previous type experience but the Gods at the top decided that 55 ton would exclude most classic types which were at the time mainly analogue instrumented.
So, chaps, nothing to do with Melbourne, the Captain of Melbourne or any other incident or training event you may wish to conjure up. sorry.
(Fatbus you were obviously here and can confirm)
Lots of BAe146 pilots arrived from all over but mainly Kiwis and Ozzies and a couple had some probs in initial training, this had really nothing to do with the previous type experience but the Gods at the top decided that 55 ton would exclude most classic types which were at the time mainly analogue instrumented.
So, chaps, nothing to do with Melbourne, the Captain of Melbourne or any other incident or training event you may wish to conjure up. sorry.
(Fatbus you were obviously here and can confirm)
CAYNINE,
The 55t "Hard time" rule for upgrade was introduced with the FCI on upgrade and fleet transfer, along with the 4000hr "Emirates type" and 1000hr on type requirements.
I don't think it was in the FOM and it STILL isn't in the OM-A.
Are you sure it pre-dates Melbourne?
The 55t "Hard time" rule for upgrade was introduced with the FCI on upgrade and fleet transfer, along with the 4000hr "Emirates type" and 1000hr on type requirements.
I don't think it was in the FOM and it STILL isn't in the OM-A.
Are you sure it pre-dates Melbourne?
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It is correct the 55T rule was there for the accelerated guys about 8 years ago however for the normal upgrade i.e 3 years in the company the 55T rule came in after Melbourne.
It was a knee jerk reaction from the company but at the same time it was when we had some very poor new pilots joining from regional jets who required large amounts of extra training and as a result of this all the regional jet pilots got placed in the same boat no matter how competent they were.
It was a knee jerk reaction from the company but at the same time it was when we had some very poor new pilots joining from regional jets who required large amounts of extra training and as a result of this all the regional jet pilots got placed in the same boat no matter how competent they were.
Last edited by emratty; 19th Mar 2011 at 18:58. Reason: spelling
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The FCI detailing new requirements for upgrade was originally introduced late May of 2009 (Check out FCI 2011-005 which is a reissue of the original). Prior to this time there was no 4000 hour "hard time requirement" to upgrade. Hard time being in aircraft above 55T.
Caynine and Fatbus I know of the 55T issue you reference it's not the same as this.
Many capable F/O's are getting screwed for command by this. Many with multiple thousands of hours of jet PIC already just not above 55T.
It'll be close to 6 years for these guys to upgrade all the while some career F\O's who have been flying round Europe their entire career in 73's or 320's are deemed more qualified just because they flew marginally larger a\c.
PIC time we are told is the Holy Grail, get it and never pass up a command they say, well that's all well and good but it don't matter for nowt at EK.
Size matters here just like their TALL empty skyscrapers.
Regards
IH
Caynine and Fatbus I know of the 55T issue you reference it's not the same as this.
Many capable F/O's are getting screwed for command by this. Many with multiple thousands of hours of jet PIC already just not above 55T.
It'll be close to 6 years for these guys to upgrade all the while some career F\O's who have been flying round Europe their entire career in 73's or 320's are deemed more qualified just because they flew marginally larger a\c.
PIC time we are told is the Holy Grail, get it and never pass up a command they say, well that's all well and good but it don't matter for nowt at EK.
Size matters here just like their TALL empty skyscrapers.
Regards
IH
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As said by previous posters this requirement for upgrades only came into effect after MEL. If this requirement would have been there when I accepted the offer to join I, along with many of my peers, would have not accepted 
Instant Hooligan: With regards to your comments on guys getting screwed and career F/O's - Well Said!
Will
Instant Hooligan: With regards to your comments on guys getting screwed and career F/O's - Well Said!
Will
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If this requirement would have been there when I accepted the offer to join I, along with many of my peers, would have not accepted