Emirates is running an illegal operation
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Emirates is running an illegal operation
I just spent a few days in the sand visiting some ex-collegues that made the leap and joined Emirates. I onlyy stayed less than a week but I caught wind of some of what is going on and it does not look pretty or legal.
Some observations;
The Factoring. How on earth does any aviation authority think that crap is legal? Bunk time does not count towards your monthly or yearly limit! I know how Emirates got that approved but how do the English, Aussie's and of course the FAA turn a blind eye to that concept?
Everyone who spends anytime in the sand realizes that the GCAA is run by and takes direction from Emirates. The FAA and everyone else will have blood on their hands when a crash happens because of this stupid order.
The Duty Limits. My friends were telling me that they have to be on the airplane by the time their duty time starts. All of the their pre-flight paperwork and briefings are done without being credited for their duty.
Then what is worse when they set the brakes after a trip is over they are off duty! The engines are still running, passengers are on board, and no checklists have been completed but you are off duty. Again how does the GCAA think this is legal.
Emirates can run their long, two pilot turnarounds in the middle of the night and that is why they do what they do but how good is it going to look when the crash happens? They are pushing the limits and it is going to catch up with them.
My friends sure have aged in the last two years since I have seen them. They said everyone is flying 95 hours with a lot of backside of the clock flying. That is all hard time, no credit which is just insane but I must admit not illegal. If Emirates pilots want to put up with that crap who can stop them but it is their grave they are digging weather they know it or not.
I interviewed and even got hired a few years back for full disclosure. Fortunately I did not take the offer because I would have looked and felt like my friends do now.
The next time any of you EK pilots have a USA layover be sure to call the FAA. They probably will not do anything but at least you will get it on record of what Emirates is doing as they have to make a record of every complaint and your conscience will feel better when the accident happens.
Good luck to all of you and be sure to voice your concerns about the illegal operation Emrates is running. Let's hope they change for the better and stay on this side of the law but after all it is the middle east.
Last but not least remember that the US carriers will be hiring soon. Your body will thank you later.
Some observations;
The Factoring. How on earth does any aviation authority think that crap is legal? Bunk time does not count towards your monthly or yearly limit! I know how Emirates got that approved but how do the English, Aussie's and of course the FAA turn a blind eye to that concept?
Everyone who spends anytime in the sand realizes that the GCAA is run by and takes direction from Emirates. The FAA and everyone else will have blood on their hands when a crash happens because of this stupid order.
The Duty Limits. My friends were telling me that they have to be on the airplane by the time their duty time starts. All of the their pre-flight paperwork and briefings are done without being credited for their duty.
Then what is worse when they set the brakes after a trip is over they are off duty! The engines are still running, passengers are on board, and no checklists have been completed but you are off duty. Again how does the GCAA think this is legal.
Emirates can run their long, two pilot turnarounds in the middle of the night and that is why they do what they do but how good is it going to look when the crash happens? They are pushing the limits and it is going to catch up with them.
My friends sure have aged in the last two years since I have seen them. They said everyone is flying 95 hours with a lot of backside of the clock flying. That is all hard time, no credit which is just insane but I must admit not illegal. If Emirates pilots want to put up with that crap who can stop them but it is their grave they are digging weather they know it or not.
I interviewed and even got hired a few years back for full disclosure. Fortunately I did not take the offer because I would have looked and felt like my friends do now.
The next time any of you EK pilots have a USA layover be sure to call the FAA. They probably will not do anything but at least you will get it on record of what Emirates is doing as they have to make a record of every complaint and your conscience will feel better when the accident happens.
Good luck to all of you and be sure to voice your concerns about the illegal operation Emrates is running. Let's hope they change for the better and stay on this side of the law but after all it is the middle east.
Last but not least remember that the US carriers will be hiring soon. Your body will thank you later.
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You might be surprised to find out that EK does everything according to GCAA rules, oh ya GCAA RULES get it, EK is covered and the legal dept is all over that to keep EK "legal", very middle east. FAA was just here doing an audit on the GCAA and word is they passed. So basically EK is operating legally as per there governing body. FAA approves GCAA which approves EK, there is nothing that EK does that the FAA is not aware of.
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Then what is worse when they set the brakes after a trip is over they are off duty!
You don't like it? Don't sign, don't go.
Some of the countries, where these "old" laws are still in force, are facing open-sky agreements to be implemented in the near future. Part of these agreements is the "harmonization" of the FDTL.....now that has given in the past some interesting interpretations and derogations.....
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Duty Limits
"The Duty Limits. My friends were telling me that they have to be on the airplane by the time their duty time starts. All of the their pre-flight paperwork and briefings are done without being credited for their duty.
Then what is worse when they set the brakes after a trip is over they are off duty! The engines are still running, passengers are on board, and no checklists have been completed but you are off duty."
How can you guys allow this? Isn't it supposed to start the Duty at least one hour before the scheduled off-block time?! And shouldn't the Duty end only 30 minutes after the on-block time?
Then what is worse when they set the brakes after a trip is over they are off duty! The engines are still running, passengers are on board, and no checklists have been completed but you are off duty."
How can you guys allow this? Isn't it supposed to start the Duty at least one hour before the scheduled off-block time?! And shouldn't the Duty end only 30 minutes after the on-block time?
tomcat,
You are right about some things, not others.
Yes, factoring is a fiddle and I think it is unlikely to last much longer- HOWEVER it is in our approved OM-A, the GCAA know about it and have approved it, and the FAA just audited the GCAA with no findings.
I don't like it but it is clearly leagal.
As to sign on vs. actually start of duty, you are spot on. Emirates are by no means the only company with a similar MO but that doesn't make it right.
The one that annoys me because it is constanly brought up and no amount of explaining will get it across to people is the concept of FLIGHT DUTY PERIOD. The maximum amount of time you can spen engaged in FLYING is calculated, that is your maximum FLIGHT duty period and it finishes when you stop FLYING.
The idea is to avoid you being fatigued to the point that it interferes with your ability to operate the aircraft. Once the brakes are parked, you aren't likely to crash due to fatigue are you?
This is bog-standard JAR rules, and every European airline operates to that standard.
Having finished flying, what counts now is how much rest you get. THIS (sign off) happens after you have finished ALL duties. Standard is 30mins after shutdown (thats when Emirates PLAN for your rest to start) but if you are delayed beyond that, and are still doing company duty (i.e a debrief on a training flight), ring ops and tell them when your actual sign-off was- they are obliged to use this and alter any subsequent duty should you impinge on minimum rest. I've done so in the past.
You are right about some things, not others.
Yes, factoring is a fiddle and I think it is unlikely to last much longer- HOWEVER it is in our approved OM-A, the GCAA know about it and have approved it, and the FAA just audited the GCAA with no findings.
I don't like it but it is clearly leagal.
As to sign on vs. actually start of duty, you are spot on. Emirates are by no means the only company with a similar MO but that doesn't make it right.
The one that annoys me because it is constanly brought up and no amount of explaining will get it across to people is the concept of FLIGHT DUTY PERIOD. The maximum amount of time you can spen engaged in FLYING is calculated, that is your maximum FLIGHT duty period and it finishes when you stop FLYING.
The idea is to avoid you being fatigued to the point that it interferes with your ability to operate the aircraft. Once the brakes are parked, you aren't likely to crash due to fatigue are you?
This is bog-standard JAR rules, and every European airline operates to that standard.
Having finished flying, what counts now is how much rest you get. THIS (sign off) happens after you have finished ALL duties. Standard is 30mins after shutdown (thats when Emirates PLAN for your rest to start) but if you are delayed beyond that, and are still doing company duty (i.e a debrief on a training flight), ring ops and tell them when your actual sign-off was- they are obliged to use this and alter any subsequent duty should you impinge on minimum rest. I've done so in the past.
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Wizofox, I do not agree with your statement. No crash yes but when you set the parking brake and you are under fatigue you could easily take the wrong decision if an emergency occurs with more than 350 pax still on board and engines running, all are counting on you to protect them "in case of" till they reach the terminal or the bus. No ?
For me ITS A BIG YES and thats the way I intend to do my job.
For me ITS A BIG YES and thats the way I intend to do my job.
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I've worked for several airlines, including ME ones. Flight Duty has always been from SIGN ON to ON BLOCK. Your duty period still runs for another 30 minutes, and will determine your minimum rest.
EU Ops are no different, so if they define flight duty from OFF to ON BLOCK, they differ from most other regulations.
Bending the rules in this way will give EK an advantage over other airlines. You, the crew, are the ones who pay for this.
As long as you don't crash all is well. For the company.
EU Ops are no different, so if they define flight duty from OFF to ON BLOCK, they differ from most other regulations.
Bending the rules in this way will give EK an advantage over other airlines. You, the crew, are the ones who pay for this.
As long as you don't crash all is well. For the company.
Last edited by ManaAdaSystem; 3rd Dec 2010 at 10:47.
Guys don't be wound up by New Tomcat. This handle only posts on the middle east forum. Is a "Highly experienced Delta Captain" who turned down his "special contract" DEC job in EK several years ago.
All the stuff he sprouts here was told to him when he was going to grace us all with his presence way back then. That would include the factoring, duty times, high hour months etc etc. Nothing has changed. Well nothing except we have had yet another pay cut.
How about you take a look at your under paid overworked commuter pilots in the US Tomcat. They would be the guys hired to take legacy carriers flying and be paid nothing, so that their management can have the bonuses. You be sure to tell the FAA about them to now ya here.
The Don
All the stuff he sprouts here was told to him when he was going to grace us all with his presence way back then. That would include the factoring, duty times, high hour months etc etc. Nothing has changed. Well nothing except we have had yet another pay cut.
How about you take a look at your under paid overworked commuter pilots in the US Tomcat. They would be the guys hired to take legacy carriers flying and be paid nothing, so that their management can have the bonuses. You be sure to tell the FAA about them to now ya here.
The Don
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Ok guys listen up..... Wiz is absolutely correct your FDP ends at brakes on (this is the same as the UK and many other countries rules), however your DUTY ends 30 mins after brakes on, this means that you cant possibly start duty until at least 12hrs 30 mins AFTER brakes on got it??
It doesn't matter how many times this simple rule is explained to people, many just don't get it...... This is not an illegal practice. Now factoring..... that's a whole different subject!
BTW Tom, our duty time starts 1 hour before STD. This is standard for most airlines I can think of (apart from my last airline where it was 1hr 15 mins for long haul only, 1 hour for short). The fact that we get to briefing about 1hr 45 before STD (due to crew transport pick up timings) is a matter of contention.
I suggest to those of you who really despise this, make their own way to work and pitch up exactly 1 hr before push back as per the law (you are fully entitled to do this by the way). I'm absolutely sure though that you were slightly more professional than this in your last airline operating from a big airport (it can take over 20 mins to get to some of the aircraft stands).... Good luck to you I say, lets see how many c0ck ups you make when you pitch up to the aircraft 20 mins prior to STD. Me thinks some of you need to grow up and think a little more professionally perhaps?
It doesn't matter how many times this simple rule is explained to people, many just don't get it...... This is not an illegal practice. Now factoring..... that's a whole different subject!
BTW Tom, our duty time starts 1 hour before STD. This is standard for most airlines I can think of (apart from my last airline where it was 1hr 15 mins for long haul only, 1 hour for short). The fact that we get to briefing about 1hr 45 before STD (due to crew transport pick up timings) is a matter of contention.
I suggest to those of you who really despise this, make their own way to work and pitch up exactly 1 hr before push back as per the law (you are fully entitled to do this by the way). I'm absolutely sure though that you were slightly more professional than this in your last airline operating from a big airport (it can take over 20 mins to get to some of the aircraft stands).... Good luck to you I say, lets see how many c0ck ups you make when you pitch up to the aircraft 20 mins prior to STD. Me thinks some of you need to grow up and think a little more professionally perhaps?
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Looks like things are getting in the right direction... Waiting for Operators to comply...
CAAP 14: ULR OPERATIONS (Revised on 01 July 2010) (we are DEC 2010)
`Although the CAAP itself is not a legal instrument, it may have legal effect in that failure to comply with specific requirements may lead to non-compliance with Civil Aviation Regulations. The use of the word “shall” in the CAAP should be seen as a mandatory requirement.``
Please, take a look at Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP)
IMPORTANT
(b) ULR pre-flight Rostering Requirements:
Prior to operating a ULR flight or a ULR Standby departing UAE, all crew members shall be scheduled for 02 days off including 03 local nights of rest in base.
(c) ULR Flight Rest Period Away from Base
In the ULR Rostered Duty Assignment, the scheduled period free of flying duties away from base shall be at least 48 hours.
(d) Post ULR Rostered Duty Assignment Rest At Base Before embarking on the Next Flight:
All crewmembers shall be scheduled for a minimum of 2 days off including 03 local nights of rest in base upon completion of a ULR pairing followed by any other duty or a ULR pairing.
(e) Each crew member shall not be rostered more than 02 ULR Pairings/calendar month.
Safe flying...
CAAP 14: ULR OPERATIONS (Revised on 01 July 2010) (we are DEC 2010)
`Although the CAAP itself is not a legal instrument, it may have legal effect in that failure to comply with specific requirements may lead to non-compliance with Civil Aviation Regulations. The use of the word “shall” in the CAAP should be seen as a mandatory requirement.``
Please, take a look at Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP)
IMPORTANT
(b) ULR pre-flight Rostering Requirements:
Prior to operating a ULR flight or a ULR Standby departing UAE, all crew members shall be scheduled for 02 days off including 03 local nights of rest in base.
(c) ULR Flight Rest Period Away from Base
In the ULR Rostered Duty Assignment, the scheduled period free of flying duties away from base shall be at least 48 hours.
(d) Post ULR Rostered Duty Assignment Rest At Base Before embarking on the Next Flight:
All crewmembers shall be scheduled for a minimum of 2 days off including 03 local nights of rest in base upon completion of a ULR pairing followed by any other duty or a ULR pairing.
(e) Each crew member shall not be rostered more than 02 ULR Pairings/calendar month.
Safe flying...
Wizofox, I do not agree with your statement. No crash yes but when you set the parking brake and you are under fatigue you could easily take the wrong decision if an emergency occurs with more than 350 pax still on board and engines running, all are counting on you to protect them "in case of" till they reach the terminal or the bus. No ?
For me ITS A BIG YES and thats the way I intend to do my job.
For me ITS A BIG YES and thats the way I intend to do my job.
Yes, "All Pax Dissembarked" would be reasonable, but fact is On Blocks is what is used under JAR, which is what GCAA is based on.
Mada,
Flight duty = STD- 1hr- thing is, the OM-A definition of Duty is "Any task required by the company"- we are required to be briefed and on the bus to the aircraft 1:10 before STD, so this definatey is where they are having a lend.
Yes STD-1 has been a standard sign-on elsewhere (in fact std -45 at at least one), but at other airlines I was only required to BR THERE STD-1, at Emirates, I'm REQUIRED to start duty as soon as I arrive- by thecompany transport.
Last but not least remember that the US carriers will be hiring soon. Your body will thank you later.
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It does not matter when your duty or FDP ends or when your rest period begins. We are off duty and we have not even shut the egines down yet. At least give us 15 mins to complete the checklists and take care of the slugs.
Emirates will never do this of course because there go the Indian turnarounds with two pilots.
If we got 90 mins before (like a lot of international operations) and 30 mins after the flights Emirates would lose 80% of the night turnarounds. Like I said that will never happen and we pay the price.
Emirates will never do this of course because there go the Indian turnarounds with two pilots.
If we got 90 mins before (like a lot of international operations) and 30 mins after the flights Emirates would lose 80% of the night turnarounds. Like I said that will never happen and we pay the price.
We are off duty and we have not even shut the egines down yet.
You have a long history of having things patiently explained to you and then ignoring the information supplied to you.
NO YOU ARE NOT OFF DUTY at blocks on. Your FLIGHT duty period has finished. Your DUTY ends a MINIMUM of 30 mins after that.
This is exactley as it is done in European operations under JAR- Do you dispute this?
This has been patiently explained above and you have ignored it.
Why?
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This has been patiently explained above and you have ignored it.
This is precisely why some will continue to ignore the protestations of many new(er) pilots to the region, as ops in the region are (or can be) quite different to where they came from.
The short answer is, as usual...don't like it, leave.
As...the modus operandi of the concerned airlines is quite likely not to change.
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Bottom line, its horses for courses.
In real terms, I leave my house EXACTLY at the same relative time here at EK as I did flying in the UK.
Instead of : Driving myself to the airport staff car park, looking for a space not somewhere in the next county(literally), getting bus to office. I now: Get picked up by a car( driver skills not withstanding
) am delivered directly to the office door.
Now IF you want to go straight into your Flight Planning so be it,or take some personal time to get a coffee "chew the fat" with whom ever is in the coffee shop and THEN get on with flight planning,10 -15 mins.
As I look at it it works out about the same.
And yes FDP has ALWAYS stopped at brakes on wherever I have worked.
In real terms, I leave my house EXACTLY at the same relative time here at EK as I did flying in the UK.
Instead of : Driving myself to the airport staff car park, looking for a space not somewhere in the next county(literally), getting bus to office. I now: Get picked up by a car( driver skills not withstanding
) am delivered directly to the office door.Now IF you want to go straight into your Flight Planning so be it,or take some personal time to get a coffee "chew the fat" with whom ever is in the coffee shop and THEN get on with flight planning,10 -15 mins.
As I look at it it works out about the same.
And yes FDP has ALWAYS stopped at brakes on wherever I have worked.