Emirates is running an illegal operation
short flights long nights
Thank GOD for a balanced reply.
If anyone wants to check the publised roster, they will see that ALWAYS the rest period starts 30 mins after on blocks.
If you want to arrive at work at one hour before sign on..do it..you are allowed....no argument at all.
Factoring..thats another story...........
The rules are in The OMA and the are being followed...
If anyone wants to check the publised roster, they will see that ALWAYS the rest period starts 30 mins after on blocks.If you want to arrive at work at one hour before sign on..do it..you are allowed....no argument at all.
Factoring..thats another story...........
The rules are in The OMA and the are being followed...
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alwayzinit
There is also an arguement that because Cpt Emirates Nigel is bought in from his compound he could be in a better Fatigue risk position that the hordes of BA pilots that position into LHR before their flights , hang around for ages, take advantage of a augmented sleep on a long haul flight after take off then operate, on many many other Pilots who commute long distances before flying.
The factorisation issue is a no brainer so total support on that issue
There is also an arguement that because Cpt Emirates Nigel is bought in from his compound he could be in a better Fatigue risk position that the hordes of BA pilots that position into LHR before their flights , hang around for ages, take advantage of a augmented sleep on a long haul flight after take off then operate, on many many other Pilots who commute long distances before flying.
The factorisation issue is a no brainer so total support on that issue
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 30 West
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dare anyone to pass through immigration or at the kiosk signin at EGHQ exactly one hour prior to STD. The crew will already have gone, the FDM will be frantically looking for you or a replacement. And if you actually used 90 minutes prior to STD, like most international long haul operators, for the Dhaka turns, one would be into Capt's discretion before arriving at the aircraft. So someone please let us know when you sign in one hour prior to departure and not call the FDM. How's that gonna work for ya?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You may be surprised to know IXNAT that there are approx 6 Capts on the AB fleet who do exactly that, arrive at STD minus 60. The FMA arranges their transport to the jet because they are not late...
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Varies!
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IXNAT
Jesus is spot on. It's kept fairly quiet for obvious reasons. There is a seperate car to take you to the aircraft, the FDM's are aware and it's a non issue.
The Company realises full well they can say nothing on this and rely on the 99% of guys who go to work without question but moan on here.
There's nothing to stop you signing in and boosting Costa's profits!
Your choice.
Jesus is spot on. It's kept fairly quiet for obvious reasons. There is a seperate car to take you to the aircraft, the FDM's are aware and it's a non issue.
The Company realises full well they can say nothing on this and rely on the 99% of guys who go to work without question but moan on here.
There's nothing to stop you signing in and boosting Costa's profits!
Your choice.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Empty quarter
Age: 44
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FACK said
"What Wizofoz is seemingly not aware of is that before he arrived here to teach us all,......."
Nice chip on your shoulder mate. Typical of the know all manual obsessed point scoring sub culture we have. So you've been here a bit longer, get over yourself, or join training and show us how its done.But you probably have a reason not too ....conveniently. Anyway..
No operator using variations of 371 counts time after chocks towards FDP or fdp monthly or annual limits. They do count total duty period when calculating your rest and cumulative hrs of total duty. Simples.
If you have a problem with your pick up or report then a solution has been suggested and apparantly demonstrated already so fill your boots
"What Wizofoz is seemingly not aware of is that before he arrived here to teach us all,......."
Nice chip on your shoulder mate. Typical of the know all manual obsessed point scoring sub culture we have. So you've been here a bit longer, get over yourself, or join training and show us how its done.But you probably have a reason not too ....conveniently. Anyway..
No operator using variations of 371 counts time after chocks towards FDP or fdp monthly or annual limits. They do count total duty period when calculating your rest and cumulative hrs of total duty. Simples.
If you have a problem with your pick up or report then a solution has been suggested and apparantly demonstrated already so fill your boots
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Pleiades
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Omanair is similar
in Omanair the roster is all over the place and lots of consecutive night flying followed by two days and another two nights. The only way to avoid an accident is to call in sick.
Some guys thinking of jumping ship to Emirates, but I guess the story isn't much different.
I wonder if the current deals in Vietnam & China are any better?
Some guys thinking of jumping ship to Emirates, but I guess the story isn't much different.
I wonder if the current deals in Vietnam & China are any better?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Fack, been using the UK CAP 371 (on which the UAE GCAA FTL's are predicated) for over 2 decades and (unlike you it seems) I am FULLY conversant with how they work!
I'm surprised you don't understand, as we (and the OM-A) couldn't be ANY clearer....... Perhaps English isn't your first language? If this is the case then you can be forgiven, if it is however, step aside and let the adults speak!
God knows what you are arguing about? You openly acknowledge that we get a 30 mins allowance for post flight duties (which IS included as part of your running DUTY totals AS IS DEADHEADING!!).......So what's your point? Me thinks you are getting awfully confused between the definitions of FDP and Duty Time.
If you can be bothered, check out the UK CAA FTLs (which are JAR compliant I hasten to add), you will find NO difference in the definitions. Care to argue the toss? Go ahead, you won't win
I'm surprised you don't understand, as we (and the OM-A) couldn't be ANY clearer....... Perhaps English isn't your first language? If this is the case then you can be forgiven, if it is however, step aside and let the adults speak!
God knows what you are arguing about? You openly acknowledge that we get a 30 mins allowance for post flight duties (which IS included as part of your running DUTY totals AS IS DEADHEADING!!).......So what's your point? Me thinks you are getting awfully confused between the definitions of FDP and Duty Time.
If you can be bothered, check out the UK CAA FTLs (which are JAR compliant I hasten to add), you will find NO difference in the definitions. Care to argue the toss? Go ahead, you won't win
Last edited by Oblaaspop; 4th Dec 2010 at 15:04.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fack5
at last somebody who actually knows what the book says rather than what they think they would like the book to say.
I'm guessing you also received one of "those" letters from they who must be obeyed when we told to change the times that were written on the Voyage Reports.
As to the 6 heroes (Urban Legend??) who walk thru immigration 1 hour before departure, hows about you ring up the poor F/O and order him/her to do the same instead of expecting them to do the entire pre-flight preparation for you, but I guess then right or wrong you might be held accountable for your actions!!!!!!
at last somebody who actually knows what the book says rather than what they think they would like the book to say.
I'm guessing you also received one of "those" letters from they who must be obeyed when we told to change the times that were written on the Voyage Reports.
As to the 6 heroes (Urban Legend??) who walk thru immigration 1 hour before departure, hows about you ring up the poor F/O and order him/her to do the same instead of expecting them to do the entire pre-flight preparation for you, but I guess then right or wrong you might be held accountable for your actions!!!!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am glad that I have stirred up some discussion on Emirates.
Just a few thoughts on the matter. Just because the aviation authority deems Emirates action legal by their no comment, blind eye, or having everyone's cousin on each others board does not make it legal. The GCAA might let Emirates do whatever they like but is that morally legal, ethically legal or just plain legal? I know a few lawyers who would tear that argument up in court in a New York minute given the chance.
The FDP that allows for a two pilot turnarounds in the middle of the night is only "legal" when that 30 mins of post flight duties is not included in the FDP. My friends said when they first got to the sand 30 mins was included in the FDP but was taken away in 2005.
This is what we (my friends and I) are referring to. If you have a 9 hours duty limit at a proper airline you would have 90 mins taken up in pre flight obligations and 30 mins used up in post flight obligations whhich leaves you only 7 hours of flying and a lot of your night turnarounds become null and void. Wala, do away with 60 mins of your FDP and you can do all that crap flying and that explains why my former co-workers look like they do. Like manure and 15 years older than they actually are.
I don't care when the rest period starts, how much rest you need, or how the rest is calculated. The FDP without 30 mins (and 90 mins pre flight) at the end is wrong and illegal.
I noticed no one is saying Emirates is running a legal operation, just trying to muddy the waters as to when a rest period starts. The factoring ends all arguments full stop, period, end of discussion. EMIRATES IS ILLEGAL. No airline in the whole world to the best of my knowledge has factoring. I am sure the Aussie will correct me if I am wrong and please do so.
Keep trying to defend Emirates and you will look like the fool. it was mentioned that I check in on the middle east forum. Thank you for checking my record but I was making sure I made the right choice and judging by what is written here, talking to my friends, and seeing what the management is doing to you I sure did make the right choice.
Just a few thoughts on the matter. Just because the aviation authority deems Emirates action legal by their no comment, blind eye, or having everyone's cousin on each others board does not make it legal. The GCAA might let Emirates do whatever they like but is that morally legal, ethically legal or just plain legal? I know a few lawyers who would tear that argument up in court in a New York minute given the chance.
The FDP that allows for a two pilot turnarounds in the middle of the night is only "legal" when that 30 mins of post flight duties is not included in the FDP. My friends said when they first got to the sand 30 mins was included in the FDP but was taken away in 2005.
This is what we (my friends and I) are referring to. If you have a 9 hours duty limit at a proper airline you would have 90 mins taken up in pre flight obligations and 30 mins used up in post flight obligations whhich leaves you only 7 hours of flying and a lot of your night turnarounds become null and void. Wala, do away with 60 mins of your FDP and you can do all that crap flying and that explains why my former co-workers look like they do. Like manure and 15 years older than they actually are.
I don't care when the rest period starts, how much rest you need, or how the rest is calculated. The FDP without 30 mins (and 90 mins pre flight) at the end is wrong and illegal.
I noticed no one is saying Emirates is running a legal operation, just trying to muddy the waters as to when a rest period starts. The factoring ends all arguments full stop, period, end of discussion. EMIRATES IS ILLEGAL. No airline in the whole world to the best of my knowledge has factoring. I am sure the Aussie will correct me if I am wrong and please do so.
Keep trying to defend Emirates and you will look like the fool. it was mentioned that I check in on the middle east forum. Thank you for checking my record but I was making sure I made the right choice and judging by what is written here, talking to my friends, and seeing what the management is doing to you I sure did make the right choice.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WHAT?
EK Kool-Aid drinker you do a wonderful job of trying to deflect the issues.
I believe the issue is EK running an illegal operation and now you are talking about OJ, Regional jets and Gitmo.
I don't know why Americans come to the sand pit, for each person there is probably a different answer. Most came before EK went rapidly south and as you know it is very difficult to get out once here. Please don't say if you don't like it leave crap. That is the worse kind of management style and it just proves a 3rd world loser mentality.
EK Kool-Aid drinker you do a wonderful job of trying to deflect the issues.
I believe the issue is EK running an illegal operation and now you are talking about OJ, Regional jets and Gitmo.
I don't know why Americans come to the sand pit, for each person there is probably a different answer. Most came before EK went rapidly south and as you know it is very difficult to get out once here. Please don't say if you don't like it leave crap. That is the worse kind of management style and it just proves a 3rd world loser mentality.
Tomcat-
Notice you didn't answer my questions regardind AMERICAN FTLs.
Once again:-
Max duty for a four man crew?
Minimum rest before a duty?
Maximum monthly and yearly totals for Long haul passenger and freight?
Notice you didn't answer my questions regardind AMERICAN FTLs.
Once again:-
Max duty for a four man crew?
Minimum rest before a duty?
Maximum monthly and yearly totals for Long haul passenger and freight?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai
Age: 50
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
§ 121.485 Flight time limitations: Three or more pilots and an additional flight crewmember.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting flag operations shall schedule its flight hours to provide adequate rest periods on the ground for each pilot who is away from his base and who is a pilot on an airplane that has a crew of three or more pilots and an additional flight crewmember. It shall also provide adequate sleeping quarters on the airplane whenever a pilot is scheduled to fly more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) The certificate holder conducting flag operations shall give each pilot, upon return to his base from any flight or series of flights, a rest period that is at least twice the total number of hours he flew since the last rest period at his base. During the rest period required by this paragraph, the air carrier may not require him to perform any duty for it. If the required rest period is more than seven days, that part of the rest period in excess of seven days may be given at any time before the pilot is again scheduled for flight duty on any route.
(c) No pilot may fly as a flight crewmember more than—
(1) 350 hours during any 90 consecutive days; or
(2) 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting flag operations shall schedule its flight hours to provide adequate rest periods on the ground for each pilot who is away from his base and who is a pilot on an airplane that has a crew of three or more pilots and an additional flight crewmember. It shall also provide adequate sleeping quarters on the airplane whenever a pilot is scheduled to fly more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) The certificate holder conducting flag operations shall give each pilot, upon return to his base from any flight or series of flights, a rest period that is at least twice the total number of hours he flew since the last rest period at his base. During the rest period required by this paragraph, the air carrier may not require him to perform any duty for it. If the required rest period is more than seven days, that part of the rest period in excess of seven days may be given at any time before the pilot is again scheduled for flight duty on any route.
(c) No pilot may fly as a flight crewmember more than—
(1) 350 hours during any 90 consecutive days; or
(2) 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Travelling East
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a stupid topic.
EK run a legal operation. They have a complete department who's only job is to ensure it is legal.
Unfortunately, being legal has nothing to do with being moral or ethical
That the legal operation is hard on the workers, and in some places immoral and unethical is without question, but the operation is legal.
There is no such thing as "morally" or "ethically" legal, it is either ethical, moral or legal. Please do not try to muddy the waters by combining the definitions.
At the end of the day, EK operate within the framework of the law, therefore they are legal.
EK run a legal operation. They have a complete department who's only job is to ensure it is legal.
Unfortunately, being legal has nothing to do with being moral or ethical
That the legal operation is hard on the workers, and in some places immoral and unethical is without question, but the operation is legal.
There is no such thing as "morally" or "ethically" legal, it is either ethical, moral or legal. Please do not try to muddy the waters by combining the definitions.
At the end of the day, EK operate within the framework of the law, therefore they are legal.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Al Ain
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sovereign laws. Based on the state, and not just copy and paste from others. United Arab Emirates has its own laws, and companies on which the track civil aviation laws of the State.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Varies!
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, allow me to disagree with at least one or two.
If you're so worried about turning up for work 1 hour and 45 minutes before departure, why don't you take a newspaper, buy yourself a coffee and chill in one of the 3 lounges provided. If that still bothers you, cancel the transport and drive yourself into work like most of the other pilots round the World. That way you can spend more of your precious time at home.
1 hour delay at hotel? Suggest a good read of the FTL's on the next layover. FTL's that, as has been mentioned on many occassions, are not unique to EK. They are taken from the UK's CAP371 and are the governing factor for most UK airlines.
As for getting on the bus after 30 minutes, did you ever bother to ask if any of the crew were on min rest? In the unlikely event, would you have been prepared to contact crew control on their behalf and have their duty changed? I have although I doubt you did.
I don't like some of the practices employed here, but those that effect legality or safety, I question and, if necessary, refuse. For people like you, however, it's far easier to come on here and moan, rather than actually have the balls and professionalism to do anything about it. Shocking but true.
If you're so worried about turning up for work 1 hour and 45 minutes before departure, why don't you take a newspaper, buy yourself a coffee and chill in one of the 3 lounges provided. If that still bothers you, cancel the transport and drive yourself into work like most of the other pilots round the World. That way you can spend more of your precious time at home.
1 hour delay at hotel? Suggest a good read of the FTL's on the next layover. FTL's that, as has been mentioned on many occassions, are not unique to EK. They are taken from the UK's CAP371 and are the governing factor for most UK airlines.
As for getting on the bus after 30 minutes, did you ever bother to ask if any of the crew were on min rest? In the unlikely event, would you have been prepared to contact crew control on their behalf and have their duty changed? I have although I doubt you did.
I don't like some of the practices employed here, but those that effect legality or safety, I question and, if necessary, refuse. For people like you, however, it's far easier to come on here and moan, rather than actually have the balls and professionalism to do anything about it. Shocking but true.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sittingidly
As Bymonek says you're on slightly dodgy ground. If you asked the UK CAA that sort of question about picking up the phone to be delayed you'd be told to "get a life".
BALPA are undertaking a lifestyle study on fatigue / social issues i'll find the link / contact for you guys and you can contribute towards it if you want. It's all confidential and the data is being compiled by a respected chap called Simon Bennett from Leicester UNI in the UK. Might be worth a punt on spending some time on it because the results will go to regulators etc.
As Bymonek says you're on slightly dodgy ground. If you asked the UK CAA that sort of question about picking up the phone to be delayed you'd be told to "get a life".
BALPA are undertaking a lifestyle study on fatigue / social issues i'll find the link / contact for you guys and you can contribute towards it if you want. It's all confidential and the data is being compiled by a respected chap called Simon Bennett from Leicester UNI in the UK. Might be worth a punt on spending some time on it because the results will go to regulators etc.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sittingidly
Shocking but true.
Guess you should refuse most duties now heh? But take note of what BYMONEK says as it's similar practice in other parts of the world
Chin up big boy