This is getting a bit ridiculous! EK 797 to DKR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: a very sandy place
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is getting a bit ridiculous! EK 797 to DKR
Hi guys,
I'm rarely a poster and this is my first thread to be started here, but holy cow, I can't believe my eyes in the pairings this month. EK 797 to DKR operates 2 crew on a 10 hour 55 minute flight. That equals an 1155 minute duty day. If you really want to look at closer, that is 1310 minutes from pickup plus what it takes to get to the hotel. I know its a day flight, and the duty day legal limit due to this is 12 hours 30 minutes, but come on. If we don't fill out a fatigue report on this each and every flight things will never get better here. Show me an office guy at EK who does a 12 hour day with no lunch break outside his office. This is just down right crazy, so please fill out those ASR's. To make matters worse, on the days with a 24 hour layover, we actually deadhead a guy in the back on this flight to fly a 9 hour flight back. Why not both ways? Feel free to beat me to a bloody pulp if you don't agree, but I find this to really really be pushing the envelope. If we don't stand up on this one, we will definitely show we will do anything here and there will be a smokign hole in the ground. That may be putting too much opinion into it, but we take 3 guys to Perth on a 1050 minute flight, why do we deserve less flying across the horn of Africa. I really would be interested to hear what everyone has to say about this. Maybe its just me over reacting.
But if not, please please please refuse to leave base in discretion (both Captains and F.O.'s) for any reason on this flight and fill out those ASR's and fatigue reports on every single flight!!!!
I'm rarely a poster and this is my first thread to be started here, but holy cow, I can't believe my eyes in the pairings this month. EK 797 to DKR operates 2 crew on a 10 hour 55 minute flight. That equals an 1155 minute duty day. If you really want to look at closer, that is 1310 minutes from pickup plus what it takes to get to the hotel. I know its a day flight, and the duty day legal limit due to this is 12 hours 30 minutes, but come on. If we don't fill out a fatigue report on this each and every flight things will never get better here. Show me an office guy at EK who does a 12 hour day with no lunch break outside his office. This is just down right crazy, so please fill out those ASR's. To make matters worse, on the days with a 24 hour layover, we actually deadhead a guy in the back on this flight to fly a 9 hour flight back. Why not both ways? Feel free to beat me to a bloody pulp if you don't agree, but I find this to really really be pushing the envelope. If we don't stand up on this one, we will definitely show we will do anything here and there will be a smokign hole in the ground. That may be putting too much opinion into it, but we take 3 guys to Perth on a 1050 minute flight, why do we deserve less flying across the horn of Africa. I really would be interested to hear what everyone has to say about this. Maybe its just me over reacting.
But if not, please please please refuse to leave base in discretion (both Captains and F.O.'s) for any reason on this flight and fill out those ASR's and fatigue reports on every single flight!!!!
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EK and long days at work.
a747jb is right to flag this issue - the whole duty day is very long, as are a number of other pairings we do here.
Why are we all so good at talking about these issues but so seemingly unable to do anything about them? With no particular reference to any individuals there seems to be lots of discontent about fatigue, but not much appetite to redress the situation. Is it fear or apathy? I can thoroughly recommend the refusal of discretion, and the use of SKF, having applied both recently to help redress the balance. There has been no negative comeback from management - just be firm but polite and allow yourself to finish your day with integrity intact.
Please folks, to stop the holes aligning in the Swiss cheese, look out for yourself and your fellow crew members and just say no!
Why are we all so good at talking about these issues but so seemingly unable to do anything about them? With no particular reference to any individuals there seems to be lots of discontent about fatigue, but not much appetite to redress the situation. Is it fear or apathy? I can thoroughly recommend the refusal of discretion, and the use of SKF, having applied both recently to help redress the balance. There has been no negative comeback from management - just be firm but polite and allow yourself to finish your day with integrity intact.
Please folks, to stop the holes aligning in the Swiss cheese, look out for yourself and your fellow crew members and just say no!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Not at EK :)
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I use every available means to raise the fatigue topic. There are so many appalling examples of EK rostering. We must all use every tool in the box to hammer the management into some kind of action. Please keep filling in the ASR's.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Redressing the balance...........
777boyindubai - absolutely agree.
Sheikmyarse - try not to let the paranoia get in the way of combatting this issue. As mentioned, Commander's discretion was recently refused and separately SKF used to help redress the balance. No negative comeback from our management. Keep it factual and polite when you refuse to do what you know to be unsafe, file the necessary reports and keep copies of your correspondence.
Sheikmyarse - try not to let the paranoia get in the way of combatting this issue. As mentioned, Commander's discretion was recently refused and separately SKF used to help redress the balance. No negative comeback from our management. Keep it factual and polite when you refuse to do what you know to be unsafe, file the necessary reports and keep copies of your correspondence.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: evicted
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Overblocking
While the long duty over an area where extra vigilance is required should not be done with the 3rd pilot in seat 1K, this is a legal pairing.
What is not legal is the fact that the block time is based on a 'as the crow flies' calculation done by commercial department and you will find at least 3 90-degree turns in the actual flight path that is at least an hour over the summer block and even with the increased winter block it will be impossible to complete in the time allowed on most days.
What is not legal is the fact that the block time is based on a 'as the crow flies' calculation done by commercial department and you will find at least 3 90-degree turns in the actual flight path that is at least an hour over the summer block and even with the increased winter block it will be impossible to complete in the time allowed on most days.
PR,
As FB states, that's not correct. Block times are based on actual, average flight distances and average winds.
This certainly does mean that during some times of the year, the actual, planned flight time with no delay puts you over the allowable FDP. That isn't illegal. It is then up to the commander to decide whether it is safe to proceed using Discretion.
As FB states, that's not correct. Block times are based on actual, average flight distances and average winds.
This certainly does mean that during some times of the year, the actual, planned flight time with no delay puts you over the allowable FDP. That isn't illegal. It is then up to the commander to decide whether it is safe to proceed using Discretion.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand that the block times are based on averages over the year and therefore sometimes the flight time will be longer than the block time but I don't see how it can be possibly legal to design a pairing knowing that at some times of the year it will exceed the flight time limitations. If that is the case it should be rostered with heavy crew (or longer layovers or whatever) during the times of year it is likely to be illegal. If there is no way you can complete the flight without discretion then surely an ASR is required. Moaning about it on here won't get anything changed.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: earth
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the 48hr (2 pilots) DKR return sector you have 10 minutes to spare before going in discretion. Personally, I think the return through the night is worse than the flight there, even though it's shorter.
When I read safety summaries, I am always amazed by the lack of fatigue ASR's. EK304/305 should be in there 7 days a week. You might find it 4 times a month. The 777 flight gets an augmented crew, not for legality but to mitigate fatigue (email from crew controle). The AB flight is not augmented because our arrival is at lunch time (circadian high) and there are NOT ENOUGH ASR's (email safety dep).
If you don't write, nothing will change and that is a certainty.
Happy flying
T
When I read safety summaries, I am always amazed by the lack of fatigue ASR's. EK304/305 should be in there 7 days a week. You might find it 4 times a month. The 777 flight gets an augmented crew, not for legality but to mitigate fatigue (email from crew controle). The AB flight is not augmented because our arrival is at lunch time (circadian high) and there are NOT ENOUGH ASR's (email safety dep).
If you don't write, nothing will change and that is a certainty.
Happy flying
T
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Hanging ten!
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cabin Crew Get Rest... Pilots Nup!
The cabin crew will get rest both ways on this flight, but the pilots don't.
What airline has the cabin crew more rested than the pilots??
P.s Not saying cabin crew shouldn't get rest. Ek... Just make all flights 3 crew if block time is over 9:30...
What airline has the cabin crew more rested than the pilots??
P.s Not saying cabin crew shouldn't get rest. Ek... Just make all flights 3 crew if block time is over 9:30...
Last edited by Modhesh; 7th Nov 2010 at 18:46.
