For DXB's ATC
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For DXB's ATC
Hi Guys,
I recently did my annual line check and coming back to DXB it was very busy and we got a very long vectoring to accommodate everybody.
I remember from previous posts that in Dubai’s TMA, below transition level, the minimum rate of descent is 500 fpm and also that there’s no tolerance with speed like in other places.
My TRE wasn’t convinced and I couldn’t say that my source was PPRuNe...
Anybody here who can confirm this, maybe with a reference?
Thanks
TZ
I recently did my annual line check and coming back to DXB it was very busy and we got a very long vectoring to accommodate everybody.
I remember from previous posts that in Dubai’s TMA, below transition level, the minimum rate of descent is 500 fpm and also that there’s no tolerance with speed like in other places.
My TRE wasn’t convinced and I couldn’t say that my source was PPRuNe...
Anybody here who can confirm this, maybe with a reference?
Thanks
TZ
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Unless specified in I believe the ROD is up to you. Wrt the speed however ATC uses speed to separate traffic and plan approaches. What I find frustrating is those who opt to carry a few extra few knots to remain clean or to avoid using the appropriate flap setting. Carry 5 kts extra over 20 track miles and you encroach on the traffic in front reducing the required separation and increase the risk of a GA. Use the flap and do the speeds requested, what's the problem? Let ATC do it's job so that we can do ours.
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Marooned.
The problem? Fuel.
Flap = Fuel.
There are no provisions in a fuel policy for extended vectoring with flaps extended.
Often there is no guidance as to how long the vectoring will go for, it can be away from the airport etc etc.
Start throwing flap, start using fuel exponentially.
Did I mention fuel...
The problem? Fuel.
Flap = Fuel.
There are no provisions in a fuel policy for extended vectoring with flaps extended.
Often there is no guidance as to how long the vectoring will go for, it can be away from the airport etc etc.
Start throwing flap, start using fuel exponentially.
Did I mention fuel...
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This is copied from the October Training Newsletter.
''Descent in radar vectors - When under radar vectors, Dubai radar expect a minimum of vertical speed of 500’/min for all descent clearances unless otherwise stated.
Speed management - Dubai radar expect a speed reduction of approximately 10kts per NM when instructions to slow down are issued during a vector
Speed management - In Dubai, when instructions are issued to maintain a certain speed, pilots are expected to fly the exact speed issued, unlike some other ATS units which allow a certain degree of tolerance (for example: Canada ± 10kts, UK
± 5kts).''
''Descent in radar vectors - When under radar vectors, Dubai radar expect a minimum of vertical speed of 500’/min for all descent clearances unless otherwise stated.
Speed management - Dubai radar expect a speed reduction of approximately 10kts per NM when instructions to slow down are issued during a vector
Speed management - In Dubai, when instructions are issued to maintain a certain speed, pilots are expected to fly the exact speed issued, unlike some other ATS units which allow a certain degree of tolerance (for example: Canada ± 10kts, UK
± 5kts).''
Unless of course, you ask DXB ATC can I fly 186 knots for instance, instead of 180 knots to 10nm. 99% of approach controllers are accommodating to that request in my experience 
Saves chucking out the flaps, did someone mention fuel
EGGW
Saves chucking out the flaps, did someone mention fuel
EGGW
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Oh, fuel.
Yeah I do get it
but if you are requested to maintain a speed and DO NOT request to keep a higher speed to give ATC the heads up, then do the speed. You'll probably do more track miles if you reduce separation and you'll definitely burn more fuel doing a GA if you're intent on doing ATCs job.
The problem is it may be 2 knots for you, 6 for another, 10 for someone else and then you'll complain about the tightness on finals when ones slow to vacate and another is lining up to depart. It's not about the FUEL!
Yeah I do get it
but if you are requested to maintain a speed and DO NOT request to keep a higher speed to give ATC the heads up, then do the speed. You'll probably do more track miles if you reduce separation and you'll definitely burn more fuel doing a GA if you're intent on doing ATCs job. The problem is it may be 2 knots for you, 6 for another, 10 for someone else and then you'll complain about the tightness on finals when ones slow to vacate and another is lining up to depart. It's not about the FUEL!
Last edited by Marooned; 7th Jan 2010 at 13:40.
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Sorry, but carrying an extra 6 knots means sweet frick all! Over 15 min, with no other speed changes it is roughly 3/4 of a mile. If you were straight in, behind other traffic then things might tighten up but then good airmanship would have you using TCAS to judge the gap.
Otherwise, with several turns before final those 6 knots disappear in ATC vectoring and sequencing. Which is why there is a 5not or 10 knot 'window' in most IFR environments. It is also why ATC always says 'no problem' if you ask them to do 185 instead of 180.
Otherwise, with several turns before final those 6 knots disappear in ATC vectoring and sequencing. Which is why there is a 5not or 10 knot 'window' in most IFR environments. It is also why ATC always says 'no problem' if you ask them to do 185 instead of 180.
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If you were straight in, behind other traffic then things might tighten up but then good airmanship would have you using TCAS to judge the gap
3/4 of a mile does make a difference as ATC need to ensure minimum separation.... You take a lot of pressure off of yourselves when you do the speed requested. Yes controllers cope as they know we do not fly the speeds requested accurately but look how close it can get with 'expect late landing clearances' and land afters etc. In the current level of management 'support' why risk it?
NB: The image on TCAS is not an accurate indication of an aircrafts position and certainly not a primary tool to determine our own separations. Three main factors which contribute to traffic display misinterpretation:
- Nature of the TCAS moving reference display.
- Partial traffic picture given by the system.
- Limited accuracy of TCAS bearing information.
ATC however have the accurate picture sitting right in front of them... let them use it.
Last edited by Marooned; 8th Jan 2010 at 10:50.
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Amazing the UK can deal with +/- 5kts but in DXB they can't. Maybe DXB is busier than LHR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LHR also tend to recognise the type and will assign speeds accordingly! The requests add to RT in an already busy enviroment.
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For most of you regular users of Dubai, you probably know that, at certain times of the day, you're bound to get some holding and extended vectors. To be brutally honest, in the end stages of a tactical session of sequencing, I doubt that fuel considerations are high up on the list of factors and priorities that the controller is thinking about.
Please, just fly the speeds and carry extra fuel from the start! Yes, I know the bean counters aren't going to be happy but the reality is, it's very busy at well-known times of day and only extra fuel will allow pilots and controllers the peace of mind in knowing that planes aren't going to start calling min fuel at awkward moments.
Please, just fly the speeds and carry extra fuel from the start! Yes, I know the bean counters aren't going to be happy but the reality is, it's very busy at well-known times of day and only extra fuel will allow pilots and controllers the peace of mind in knowing that planes aren't going to start calling min fuel at awkward moments.
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Min ROD and IAS range
A News Letter is one way but this is still an interpretation by the author.
Can we get the DXB ATC Manual official text displayed..
Stick to the facts..not interpretation of thousands.
Can we get the DXB ATC Manual official text displayed..
Stick to the facts..not interpretation of thousands.
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CRS
Having controlled at both, it's news to me that the UK allow a +-5kt tolerance, interested to see the ref for that. If you're given an ATC speed I would expect it to be complied with not interpreted to what suits.
Plus it's not fair to compare the radar environment between DXB and LHR both very different with own set of challenges and restrictions.
Interestingly we always seemed to get flight crew visit the operation at LHR so they better understood things, in nearly two years I've been at DXB, I've seen only one visit by local crews.
We're open 24 hours a day if any crew would like to visit
Amazing the UK can deal with +/- 5kts but in DXB they can't. Maybe DXB is busier than LHR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LHR also tend to recognise the type and will assign speeds accordingly! The requests add to RT in an already busy enviroment.
Plus it's not fair to compare the radar environment between DXB and LHR both very different with own set of challenges and restrictions.
Interestingly we always seemed to get flight crew visit the operation at LHR so they better understood things, in nearly two years I've been at DXB, I've seen only one visit by local crews.
We're open 24 hours a day if any crew would like to visit
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Visitation Procedures
We're open 24 hours a day if any crew would like to visit
Tried in the past but too much red tape, airside passes etc.
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Visit DXB ATC
Hey, would also love to know how to get an invite for a tour.
This would help us better understand controller constraints, etc.. here in
DXB area. If you dont want to put it up, maybe you could PM us?
Hey, would also love to know how to get an invite for a tour.
This would help us better understand controller constraints, etc.. here in
DXB area. If you dont want to put it up, maybe you could PM us?
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Hi,
To answer a PM I received on this, we'd also welcome cabin crew if interested.
Capt Groper hit the nail on the head, assuming you're EK, there is a $hit load of red tape and hoops to jump through, so that could possibly explain lack of visits in the past.
I know Fly Dubai send all their new captains over for a DXB ATC presentation, which is refreshingly proactive for our part of the world.
I'm back in work on Monday and will find out what's required for flight/cabin crew to visit. Until then....
In the long run, we're looking at coming to you, with a mini ATC Q&A stall in EKHQ.
To answer a PM I received on this, we'd also welcome cabin crew if interested.
Capt Groper hit the nail on the head, assuming you're EK, there is a $hit load of red tape and hoops to jump through, so that could possibly explain lack of visits in the past.
I know Fly Dubai send all their new captains over for a DXB ATC presentation, which is refreshingly proactive for our part of the world.
I'm back in work on Monday and will find out what's required for flight/cabin crew to visit. Until then....
In the long run, we're looking at coming to you, with a mini ATC Q&A stall in EKHQ.
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Visits To DXB ATC
Hi Guys,
If you are interested in visitng Dubai ATC (and you are most welcome) you have to email your Emirates - ATC co-ordinator Ms.Charlotte Desouza. Pm if you get stuck I will be happy to help on my part. Your visit will be fruitful and enjoyable just as much as it is for us when we fly jumpseat.
About ROD in the TMA I personally would ask you a favour and get to your assigned altitude as soon as possible during busy periods. This is beyond any written requirements. Getting to your new level fast means freeing up vertical airspace for the next guy above you and helping us have more airspace available. Lingering between two levels REALLY screws us up big time. About speeds and all the rest, moaning about fuel, track miles etc when its busy does not help, ask nicely and most reasonable requests are accomodated. We understand your problems about fuel constraints and the sh.t you go through to justify any delays but please understand that we have our problems too and that finally our aim is to get you guys and all your pax home to your families fast and safely!
Cheers and see ya soon.
If you are interested in visitng Dubai ATC (and you are most welcome) you have to email your Emirates - ATC co-ordinator Ms.Charlotte Desouza. Pm if you get stuck I will be happy to help on my part. Your visit will be fruitful and enjoyable just as much as it is for us when we fly jumpseat.
About ROD in the TMA I personally would ask you a favour and get to your assigned altitude as soon as possible during busy periods. This is beyond any written requirements. Getting to your new level fast means freeing up vertical airspace for the next guy above you and helping us have more airspace available. Lingering between two levels REALLY screws us up big time. About speeds and all the rest, moaning about fuel, track miles etc when its busy does not help, ask nicely and most reasonable requests are accomodated. We understand your problems about fuel constraints and the sh.t you go through to justify any delays but please understand that we have our problems too and that finally our aim is to get you guys and all your pax home to your families fast and safely!
Cheers and see ya soon.
Last edited by TheFalcon; 9th Jan 2010 at 18:22.
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Great Thread
From an ATC prespective, can someone please explain FlyDubais new trick of entering the UAE FIR at an IAS of 230?
The problem ATC sits with (UAE ACC) is varying company policies regarding speeds/levels/ROD etc etc. As a gauge, the UAE ACC would prefer traffic to be IAS of between 290 and 320 on entering the UAE FIR, and planned descent to cross DESDI/BUBIN between FL150 and A120 regardless of RWY in use. Air Arabia love to leave the descent late thereby causing problems of catching traffic that is lower. A330's love descending earlier regardless of the RWY thereby forcing the high speed for as long as possible. Bizjets think they can leave FL280 with 20NM to DESDI, yeah right??
Ideally we want to funnel all traffic into similar descent profiles which makes speed control more manageable and realistic. When we say "descend now" we mean now and don't descend at 500 fpm. The winter winds do cause spacing problems and the sooner we can get aircraft lower the easier the spacing becomes.
When holding, please provide a decent ROD, this helps ATC compress the hold. Anything above 1000fpm is appreciated. We will always attempt to provide continuous descent but that is not always possible, just descend to the next issued level as soon as possible as safely as possible, we also want to avoid level busts????
The above criteria are basic guidelines and will obviously change depending on circumstance.
Any feedback is more than welcome
From an ATC prespective, can someone please explain FlyDubais new trick of entering the UAE FIR at an IAS of 230?
The problem ATC sits with (UAE ACC) is varying company policies regarding speeds/levels/ROD etc etc. As a gauge, the UAE ACC would prefer traffic to be IAS of between 290 and 320 on entering the UAE FIR, and planned descent to cross DESDI/BUBIN between FL150 and A120 regardless of RWY in use. Air Arabia love to leave the descent late thereby causing problems of catching traffic that is lower. A330's love descending earlier regardless of the RWY thereby forcing the high speed for as long as possible. Bizjets think they can leave FL280 with 20NM to DESDI, yeah right??
Ideally we want to funnel all traffic into similar descent profiles which makes speed control more manageable and realistic. When we say "descend now" we mean now and don't descend at 500 fpm. The winter winds do cause spacing problems and the sooner we can get aircraft lower the easier the spacing becomes.
When holding, please provide a decent ROD, this helps ATC compress the hold. Anything above 1000fpm is appreciated. We will always attempt to provide continuous descent but that is not always possible, just descend to the next issued level as soon as possible as safely as possible, we also want to avoid level busts????
The above criteria are basic guidelines and will obviously change depending on circumstance.
Any feedback is more than welcome
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Yellow Snow you are of course right, this is quote from LHR section of UK AIP
"Speed Control: Pilots should typically expect the following speed restrictions to be enforced: 220 kt from the holding facility during the
initial approach phase; 180 kt on base leg/closing heading to final approach; between 180 kt and 160 kt when established on final approach
and thereafter 160 kt to 4 DME. These speeds are applied for ATC separation purposes and are mandatory. In the event of a new (nonspeed
related) ATC instruction being issued (eg an instruction to descend on ILS) pilots shall continue to maintain the previously allocated
speed. All speed restrictions are to be flown as accurately as possible. Aircraft unable to conform to these speeds must inform ATC and
state what speeds can be used. In the interests of accurate spacing, pilots are requested to comply with speed adjustments as promptly
as is feasible within their own operational constraints. Pilots should advise ATC if circumstances necessitate a change of speed for aircraft
performance reasons."
rgds
CRS
"Speed Control: Pilots should typically expect the following speed restrictions to be enforced: 220 kt from the holding facility during the
initial approach phase; 180 kt on base leg/closing heading to final approach; between 180 kt and 160 kt when established on final approach
and thereafter 160 kt to 4 DME. These speeds are applied for ATC separation purposes and are mandatory. In the event of a new (nonspeed
related) ATC instruction being issued (eg an instruction to descend on ILS) pilots shall continue to maintain the previously allocated
speed. All speed restrictions are to be flown as accurately as possible. Aircraft unable to conform to these speeds must inform ATC and
state what speeds can be used. In the interests of accurate spacing, pilots are requested to comply with speed adjustments as promptly
as is feasible within their own operational constraints. Pilots should advise ATC if circumstances necessitate a change of speed for aircraft
performance reasons."
rgds
CRS