EK Crew fatigue
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Pilot enemy number one- Fatigue
After a few weeks of distractions, the number one issue at EK today is crew fatigue.
At least now it can be reported directly to the GCAA via their website, as has been discussed on another thread.
I love the commentary inserted into each ASR "well, during the winter months, when you have strong headwinds, and 10-11 hours block times, and it's the middle of the night, we get a lot of fatigue reports, so we'll look into it as soon as winter is over."
It's mind boggling to me that TC would allow a $327 million A380 with 499 pax onboard to be operated on an 10+ hour sector in the middle of the night with only 2 crew.
After all, isn't it his signature on the safety policy posted in all the elevators at EGHQ?
At least now it can be reported directly to the GCAA via their website, as has been discussed on another thread.
I love the commentary inserted into each ASR "well, during the winter months, when you have strong headwinds, and 10-11 hours block times, and it's the middle of the night, we get a lot of fatigue reports, so we'll look into it as soon as winter is over."
It's mind boggling to me that TC would allow a $327 million A380 with 499 pax onboard to be operated on an 10+ hour sector in the middle of the night with only 2 crew.
After all, isn't it his signature on the safety policy posted in all the elevators at EGHQ?
Join Date: May 2005
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The only way to get these crazy rostering practices and illegal variations stopped, is to file fatigue related ASR's.
There are zero repercussions for filing a fatigue ASR and you don't even have to fill out the online fatigue management questionnaire if you don't feel like it. I've never been questioned why I don't spend an hour filling out the stupid thing.
And if you request it, you can get 5 days off without question.
At a normal airline, pilots would be filing fatigue ASR's much more frequently, but the bar has been set so low here, it's almost as if we EXPECT to be fatigued when we are landing at 0600 after being awake for 15 hours.
As I mentioned earlier, not only are the number of ASR's important, but the percentage of Fatigue related ASR's as compared to other ASR's is also considered. In other words, we must stop filing ASR's that are not required according to the FOM. As a 'cover your ass' technique, mention whatever occured on the VR, so no one can suggest you are trying to cover up some event. It is sad that we have to think that way, but EK has instilled that in us.
Fatigue related ASR's are the ONLY avenue of recourse at this company. Our bosses have clearly indicated they don't believe Rostering, crazy pairings, variations and manning levels are a safety issue. They cannot be expected to think it might be a health issue either, that is about a half century away for this lot.
There are zero repercussions for filing a fatigue ASR and you don't even have to fill out the online fatigue management questionnaire if you don't feel like it. I've never been questioned why I don't spend an hour filling out the stupid thing.
And if you request it, you can get 5 days off without question.
At a normal airline, pilots would be filing fatigue ASR's much more frequently, but the bar has been set so low here, it's almost as if we EXPECT to be fatigued when we are landing at 0600 after being awake for 15 hours.
As I mentioned earlier, not only are the number of ASR's important, but the percentage of Fatigue related ASR's as compared to other ASR's is also considered. In other words, we must stop filing ASR's that are not required according to the FOM. As a 'cover your ass' technique, mention whatever occured on the VR, so no one can suggest you are trying to cover up some event. It is sad that we have to think that way, but EK has instilled that in us.
Fatigue related ASR's are the ONLY avenue of recourse at this company. Our bosses have clearly indicated they don't believe Rostering, crazy pairings, variations and manning levels are a safety issue. They cannot be expected to think it might be a health issue either, that is about a half century away for this lot.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I agree
STOP filing ASR's for being 'almost' unstable.
STOP filing ASR's for 253kts passing 4900'.
STOP filing ASR's just because Medlink was called.
STOP filing ASR's because you exited the runway at a turn off not briefed.
STOP filing ASR's because Mumbai ignored you on HF. You were CPDLC!
Use the system for what it was designed for. If not, cross out the ASR title and scroll ACR instead. Do I really need to spell it out?
Harry
STOP filing ASR's for being 'almost' unstable.
STOP filing ASR's for 253kts passing 4900'.
STOP filing ASR's just because Medlink was called.
STOP filing ASR's because you exited the runway at a turn off not briefed.
STOP filing ASR's because Mumbai ignored you on HF. You were CPDLC!
Use the system for what it was designed for. If not, cross out the ASR title and scroll ACR instead. Do I really need to spell it out?
Harry
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Some good points on ASR's,
To my mind every PVG and ICN variation with two pilots flying through the night, is worthy of an ASR. I can't see how it's not a safety hazard. I'm sure there are others but those two come to mind...
We all know the winds are strong this time of year, we know it's seasonal. The standard paraphasing rhetoric each week, so how about doing something about it?
Keep those fatigue ASR's coming, it's our professional obligation.
To my mind every PVG and ICN variation with two pilots flying through the night, is worthy of an ASR. I can't see how it's not a safety hazard. I'm sure there are others but those two come to mind...
We all know the winds are strong this time of year, we know it's seasonal. The standard paraphasing rhetoric each week, so how about doing something about it?
Keep those fatigue ASR's coming, it's our professional obligation.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Totally Fooked
Well I am one of the lucky ones NOT flying 90+ hours each month (not including the 20+hours in the bunk on ULR stuff.). However I am totally fooked just got back for far east having been in IAH 3 days before that.
I have been at this game for 25+ years both Mil and Civil and have NEVER been this tired.
Took my Kids to school today went back to bed and slept until 11am.............and still feel like cr@p. I am very lucky that my Mrs is aware of the problems we face and not one of the " you just sit there" club.
Before the lastest trip I had had a really good nights kip but still NEEDED to grab some controlled rest. The return was horrid.
Pen will be touching paper in future.
I have been at this game for 25+ years both Mil and Civil and have NEVER been this tired.
Took my Kids to school today went back to bed and slept until 11am.............and still feel like cr@p. I am very lucky that my Mrs is aware of the problems we face and not one of the " you just sit there" club.
Before the lastest trip I had had a really good nights kip but still NEEDED to grab some controlled rest. The return was horrid.
Pen will be touching paper in future.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Common Sense
I guess the seasonal headwinds are what AS is alluding to when he pasted a copy of the ATW article on common sense on the portal.
Common sense tells me not to go into discretion when I am making small errors before departure, especially data entry.
Common sense tells me to bump up the CI to 140 instead of leaving it at 10 (AS directive to dispatch not to increase it for FDP "dont worry, they will go into discretion).
Common sense tells me not all ASR's are making it past somebody's desk to the GCAA.
Common sense also tells me that if a CC needs a rest because they have to go into discretion, they will be allowed to rest in the flightdeck. I dare anyone to tell me to my face I cant do that.
Common sense also tells me holding in DXB at 2345 is forseen and 6 mins of cont fuel with alt fuel wont cut it when holding for 30mins.
AS, you really should earn your stripes and some respect here and do some line flying for a few months. It not like the old company chap.
Common sense tells me not to go into discretion when I am making small errors before departure, especially data entry.
Common sense tells me to bump up the CI to 140 instead of leaving it at 10 (AS directive to dispatch not to increase it for FDP "dont worry, they will go into discretion).
Common sense tells me not all ASR's are making it past somebody's desk to the GCAA.
Common sense also tells me that if a CC needs a rest because they have to go into discretion, they will be allowed to rest in the flightdeck. I dare anyone to tell me to my face I cant do that.
Common sense also tells me holding in DXB at 2345 is forseen and 6 mins of cont fuel with alt fuel wont cut it when holding for 30mins.
AS, you really should earn your stripes and some respect here and do some line flying for a few months. It not like the old company chap.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Why don't you ask yourself, fareflyer?
I did and got the expected answer:
"No need to go direct. We send all reports there anyway, uncensored. So stick to normal procedure!"
Now up to you to believe it or not ......
Nothing will change anyway until there is a serious incident during a variation flight or with captains discretion exerced. But first this captain will be fried.
Some years in this industry simply take away any hope for basic human common sense.
I did and got the expected answer:
"No need to go direct. We send all reports there anyway, uncensored. So stick to normal procedure!"
Now up to you to believe it or not ......
Nothing will change anyway until there is a serious incident during a variation flight or with captains discretion exerced. But first this captain will be fried.
Some years in this industry simply take away any hope for basic human common sense.
Join Date: Nov 2009
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EK pilots "POLITICAL AGENDA"!!!
The lower management folk at EK are covering their collective @r$e$ by stating that the reason pilots are calling fatigued, filing fatigue ASRs and generally pi$$ed off is because same said pilots have a "POLITICAL AGENDA" against the company.
They are saying that these reports etc are due to the fact that the pilots have to fly more for less and that there was no bonus paid etc, etc. You will start hearing this term "POLITICAL AGENDA" more and more at EK as lower management continue to hang on this catchphrase, which for now is accepted by upper management as the reason pilots are tired.
They are saying that these reports etc are due to the fact that the pilots have to fly more for less and that there was no bonus paid etc, etc. You will start hearing this term "POLITICAL AGENDA" more and more at EK as lower management continue to hang on this catchphrase, which for now is accepted by upper management as the reason pilots are tired.
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And anyone with any "Common Sense" will realise that rostering back side of the clock Asian trips and the return home, after three nights of disrupted sleep patterns, for 10+ hours with no aumentation or relief, is in fact a fatigue and safety hazard. Political agenda my arse. The phrase "Common Sense" is going to bite them in their said arse. HOW ABOUT SCHEDULING WITH COMMON SENSE..................
I'm sorry, it's just the winds this time of the year.
I'm sorry, it's just the winds this time of the year.
Join Date: May 2005
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Can someone explain to me how a pilot who got 3.5 hours sleep in 24 hours, and flew 98 hours in the preceding 30 days is not considered fatigued? I realize TCAS, ED and the propaganda machine were in action long before the preliminary report about the MEL accident was released but still...
Now keep in mind that EK does not take into account the 2+15 hour pickup time prior to EACH departure, nor do they consider even 1 minute after 'chocks-on' , nor any groundschool, SEP, simulators or the ever present Pelesys as duty time. Plus the fact that rosters change frequently and for Airbus guys in particular, the crazy rosters are fatiguing at even 80 hours a month. Hell, they are still shoving crew into hotels like in Nairobi, where proper rest in often unattainable!
When TCAS matter of factly stated during my Commanders propaganda meeting that the ATSB did not view fatigue as an issue (shortly after he stated that the ATSB was still investigating matters and nothing was yet released) it made me wonder. It seemed to me that EK was actively pursuing a pre-emptive strike against anyone who might view things differently.
It is my belief that fatigue and mixed fleet flying on the Airbus (which is definitely more challenging than our Boeing types), were 2 factors in that accident.
How do 2 pilots, with good records and experience, miss something as seemingly obvious as a 100 tonne difference in weight with the associated lower speeds and power settings? Not to mention that the 2 augmenting pilots also were unaware of this discrepancy. (No slag on any of the 4 pilots intended)
If anyone believes they are so good that something like this cannot happen to them, then they are sadly mistaken especially considering present fatigue levels at EK. In all likelihood, a similar event will repeat or something traumatic will happen to 2 pilots 'in the heat of the moment', such as a slow response to an adverse flight condition (usually takeoff or landing) and once again EK will defend their indefensible position that Fatigue is not an issue at EK.
Sorry to be so long-winded WK, I can't help myself at times. The fatigue problem and rostering debacle at EK are a frickin big issue to me.
Now keep in mind that EK does not take into account the 2+15 hour pickup time prior to EACH departure, nor do they consider even 1 minute after 'chocks-on' , nor any groundschool, SEP, simulators or the ever present Pelesys as duty time. Plus the fact that rosters change frequently and for Airbus guys in particular, the crazy rosters are fatiguing at even 80 hours a month. Hell, they are still shoving crew into hotels like in Nairobi, where proper rest in often unattainable!
When TCAS matter of factly stated during my Commanders propaganda meeting that the ATSB did not view fatigue as an issue (shortly after he stated that the ATSB was still investigating matters and nothing was yet released) it made me wonder. It seemed to me that EK was actively pursuing a pre-emptive strike against anyone who might view things differently.
It is my belief that fatigue and mixed fleet flying on the Airbus (which is definitely more challenging than our Boeing types), were 2 factors in that accident.
How do 2 pilots, with good records and experience, miss something as seemingly obvious as a 100 tonne difference in weight with the associated lower speeds and power settings? Not to mention that the 2 augmenting pilots also were unaware of this discrepancy. (No slag on any of the 4 pilots intended)
If anyone believes they are so good that something like this cannot happen to them, then they are sadly mistaken especially considering present fatigue levels at EK. In all likelihood, a similar event will repeat or something traumatic will happen to 2 pilots 'in the heat of the moment', such as a slow response to an adverse flight condition (usually takeoff or landing) and once again EK will defend their indefensible position that Fatigue is not an issue at EK.
Sorry to be so long-winded WK, I can't help myself at times. The fatigue problem and rostering debacle at EK are a frickin big issue to me.
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Fatigue is an issue for all of us Mensa - however if you do insist on flying and not pulling yourself off the flight then it's up to YOU to make damn sure that you follow the SOPS.. You are right that something could happen to any one of us - but follow the damn book
It's their trainset - I drive it that way and cover myself...
A loadsheet confirmation and MEL would NOT have happened, 100 tonnes difference or not - simple as that from various conversations I've had!! Including with said skipper - 'nuff said??
Neither do I recall my last airline- or the one before counting the time that I got into my car outside my house before setting off to work as Duty Time, maybe up to 180 mins before STD depending on the traffic!! As for loads of roster changes - well Mensa you must have p1ssed someone off in crew control
It's their trainset - I drive it that way and cover myself...A loadsheet confirmation and MEL would NOT have happened, 100 tonnes difference or not - simple as that from various conversations I've had!! Including with said skipper - 'nuff said??
Neither do I recall my last airline- or the one before counting the time that I got into my car outside my house before setting off to work as Duty Time, maybe up to 180 mins before STD depending on the traffic!! As for loads of roster changes - well Mensa you must have p1ssed someone off in crew control
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Can someone explain to me how a pilot who got 3.5 hours sleep in 24 hours, and flew 98 hours in the preceding 30 days is not considered fatigued?
MEL/406 is a trip I'm quite happy to do because its a quick way of knocking up 28 hours credit with a relatively short recovery time, no more recovery needed than for a night turnaround to India. I recollect that it was this pilots 3rd trip of this type within the mentioned 98 hours in 30 days. An easy 84 hours I reckon. There are trips and chains of duties with potential for accumulative fatigue issues at this airline, such as two crew back from China, AKL/CHC and all annexe flights. His sequence of flights that month was not particularly one of them.
Fatigue management is the responsibility of the crew member as well as the company. I notice that some crew-members treat layovers as a social and/or extreme activity extravaganza when resting would be more appropriate. This is an industry thing and not specific to this airline.
How do 2 pilots, with good records and experience, miss something as seemingly obvious as a 100 tonne difference in weight with the associated lower speeds and power settings?
A loadsheet confirmation and MEL would NOT have happened, 100 tonnes difference or not...
Last edited by theidler; 10th Jan 2010 at 02:08. Reason: scan and readability
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It may take several more years, or another serious incident, before fatigue becomes the No.1 safety issue. Meanwhile, if you're still feeling tired or fatigued after inadequate rest, use max thrust takeoff. Stay alive.