Dubai Airshow 2009
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I believe this year's show was supposed to have taken place at the new Dubai Central (or whatever it's called......) near Jebel Ali. But like most of the mega projects in DXB that's not on schedule.
I hope those at the show can see the flying displays ? I don't live far very away from the airport. I can hear them (sometimes loudly) - but I can't see them because of the polluted murk that passes for normal atmospheric conditions in DXB nowadays.
I hope those at the show can see the flying displays ? I don't live far very away from the airport. I can hear them (sometimes loudly) - but I can't see them because of the polluted murk that passes for normal atmospheric conditions in DXB nowadays.
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Good Job
I take my hat off to the DXB ATCO’s for a job well done during the airshow. The handling of the EK aircraft in the departure window 15:30 to 16:00 LT yesterday was a work of art. It obviously took a lot of planning and co-ordination. To launch as many departures as you guys did given the time constraints was a remarkable achievement. It was also quite something to watch from the flight deck whilst on taxiway P waiting our turn as each aircraft departed with one runway length separation.
UAE and Bahrain ACC coped well too but things started to come apart a bit in the Baghdad FIR. Perhaps Mr. Schibulsky and his merry band could have dispersed the northbounds a bit better taking into account the non-RVSM, separation requirements and weather on the road to KABAN.
You cant win em all. Thanks and well done DXB ATC.
UAE and Bahrain ACC coped well too but things started to come apart a bit in the Baghdad FIR. Perhaps Mr. Schibulsky and his merry band could have dispersed the northbounds a bit better taking into account the non-RVSM, separation requirements and weather on the road to KABAN.
You cant win em all. Thanks and well done DXB ATC.
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The 'Fat Lady' just got fatter. An order placed at the airshow apparently for A380 with an all economy 840 Pax configuration 
gulfnews : La Reunion carrier orders two A380s with record 840 passenger capacity
gulfnews : La Reunion carrier orders two A380s with record 840 passenger capacity
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@gulf news
small correction, I am not ATC DXB but used to be ex ATC EDDF, ex german ops ctrl and now a very happy ex EK dispatcher 
So I may have a bit more insight into flight operations than Mr. recceguy who pissed me off with his arrogant view of ATC and who now revealed that he thinks if the ruler says so its a good reason
Looks like there are more morons who applaud the local wankathlons and don't even bother to have second thoughts about that crap.
The Dubai 7's were easily relocated almost to Al Ain but thats not possible for the Airshow??
And recceguy...don't bother to "apologize" again...it wasn't one anyway!!!
So I may have a bit more insight into flight operations than Mr. recceguy who pissed me off with his arrogant view of ATC and who now revealed that he thinks if the ruler says so its a good reason
Looks like there are more morons who applaud the local wankathlons and don't even bother to have second thoughts about that crap.
The Dubai 7's were easily relocated almost to Al Ain but thats not possible for the Airshow??
And recceguy...don't bother to "apologize" again...it wasn't one anyway!!!
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Schibulsky
small correction, I am not ATC DXB but used to be ex ATC EDDF, ex german ops ctrl and now a very happy ex EK dispatcher
So I may have a bit more insight into flight opera
So I may have a bit more insight into flight opera
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@ gulf news
no offense taken, it's actually good to see pilots appreciate the work, trying to understand and have a good working relationship with ATC and Dispatch.
And you are right, EK dispatch is f
d as they are working basically with the same numbers of staff as 2 years ago
Lots of new aircrafts delivered since then, more ULR flights...do the math
Good luck
And you are right, EK dispatch is f
d as they are working basically with the same numbers of staff as 2 years ago Lots of new aircrafts delivered since then, more ULR flights...do the math
Good luck
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ATC Dubai... If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!Waiting for my turn to hold at Desdi!! Dont know how many diverted. Unacceptable in my honest opinion. NO EAT issued. You are about no 15 I was told.Please understand that we sit up there flying on fumes sometimes. Cant you use both runways for simultaneous landings, until everyone is down. Maybe its not the simple. Please enlighten me! 
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Holding
I want to avoid thread creep here as much a s possible but I think Payscale deserves an answer.
For starters I work at the ACC. Its my job to hold the traffic when required. Normally we send traffic into DXB Airspace 10nm in trail. Not a problem normally as you can quite effectively use a combination of speeds, some spine chilling, but creative vectoring to achieve the required spacing and sometimes the hold. You need to use the hold more when Dubai call for 20nm in trail through DESDI and/or BUBIN. Unfortunately this is becoming more and more common. Sometimes we see no reason why Dubai need 20nm spacing and get just as frustrated as the pilots as our workload increases to unsafe levels. I was incensed the other day, when, just as we were finishing our shift, Dubai called us and said that they were "just settling in for the night and would like to start off spacing thru Desdi and Bubin at 15nm in trail" even though there was no significant traffic inbound. This is not the way the game should be played boys. On the other hand, I did have much experience with other crews who quite happily run on 10nm in trail all night from both gates. Big experience gap there I say throughout the crews in Dubai.
Holding elsewhere in the FIR waiting for a slot in the DESDI hold is becoming more and more a common feature of night duties. Its dangerous. We have no room to vector not to mind hold. Whatever about the shortcomings in the ACC, Dubai also need to play their part and sit down and start brainstorming. There are ways in which traffic could be handled more expedisiously, like introducing arrival slots, helping the ACC utilise the stack more effectively, by using BOTH runways more effectively and reducing the in trail spacing on final approach appropriatly. There are many many busier airports in the world than Dubai that can handle far greater amounts of traffic from which we can learn.
I'm not making a dig at DXB Controllers. I've worked with some great crews and people who are willing to work together to make things safer and more expeditious. All sectors have their good controllers and just as many bad ones. But I think its time both places sat around a table, worked together and started coming up with solutions. The busier its getting, more people get frustrated, and ultimately more mistakes will be made.
For starters I work at the ACC. Its my job to hold the traffic when required. Normally we send traffic into DXB Airspace 10nm in trail. Not a problem normally as you can quite effectively use a combination of speeds, some spine chilling, but creative vectoring to achieve the required spacing and sometimes the hold. You need to use the hold more when Dubai call for 20nm in trail through DESDI and/or BUBIN. Unfortunately this is becoming more and more common. Sometimes we see no reason why Dubai need 20nm spacing and get just as frustrated as the pilots as our workload increases to unsafe levels. I was incensed the other day, when, just as we were finishing our shift, Dubai called us and said that they were "just settling in for the night and would like to start off spacing thru Desdi and Bubin at 15nm in trail" even though there was no significant traffic inbound. This is not the way the game should be played boys. On the other hand, I did have much experience with other crews who quite happily run on 10nm in trail all night from both gates. Big experience gap there I say throughout the crews in Dubai.
Holding elsewhere in the FIR waiting for a slot in the DESDI hold is becoming more and more a common feature of night duties. Its dangerous. We have no room to vector not to mind hold. Whatever about the shortcomings in the ACC, Dubai also need to play their part and sit down and start brainstorming. There are ways in which traffic could be handled more expedisiously, like introducing arrival slots, helping the ACC utilise the stack more effectively, by using BOTH runways more effectively and reducing the in trail spacing on final approach appropriatly. There are many many busier airports in the world than Dubai that can handle far greater amounts of traffic from which we can learn.
I'm not making a dig at DXB Controllers. I've worked with some great crews and people who are willing to work together to make things safer and more expeditious. All sectors have their good controllers and just as many bad ones. But I think its time both places sat around a table, worked together and started coming up with solutions. The busier its getting, more people get frustrated, and ultimately more mistakes will be made.
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Aeroflop
Believe me. it's just as frustrating from our end - we all know that there are ways to make things move more efficiently but we also know that nothing is going to change in the short term.
I also agree that some play the game more than others. That works both ways too........not much point , for example, shortcutting southerly arrivals to ESVAD at 300kts for 30L when there are already 7 downwind and a bunch more being vectored around the TMA, is there?
As for the gate spacing - I also agree that some flexibility is required. However, leaving it at 10nm all night is not neccessarily very big or clever either. Give the crews the choice of pootling around the hold, clean, at a known fuel burn rate or vectors all around the emirate at low altitude and see which one they prefer!
There are also much more efficient ways to use the stack, as you said - but if it's not Dubai that's preventing their implementation - we would LOVE to have the bottom few levels and pull traffic off more expeditiously but the GCAA won't allow it.
Payscale
Short answer....because although we have 2 runways, only one of you can use the landing one at a time! If some commom sense was applied to scheduling, there WOULDN'T BE 20 of you arriving at the same time!
Same thing with the airshow closures - over 45 flights planned to arrive in the 20 minutes after the airport reopens means that someone IS going to hold, probably for a significant period. Watch this space......flow control is coming - sooner, rather than later. Be interesting to see how that goes down with some!
Ultimately, we need to have dual independent ops for the two runways to be able to reduce the landing gaps.......again, hopefully sooner, rather than later.
Believe me. it's just as frustrating from our end - we all know that there are ways to make things move more efficiently but we also know that nothing is going to change in the short term.
I also agree that some play the game more than others. That works both ways too........not much point , for example, shortcutting southerly arrivals to ESVAD at 300kts for 30L when there are already 7 downwind and a bunch more being vectored around the TMA, is there?
As for the gate spacing - I also agree that some flexibility is required. However, leaving it at 10nm all night is not neccessarily very big or clever either. Give the crews the choice of pootling around the hold, clean, at a known fuel burn rate or vectors all around the emirate at low altitude and see which one they prefer!
There are also much more efficient ways to use the stack, as you said - but if it's not Dubai that's preventing their implementation - we would LOVE to have the bottom few levels and pull traffic off more expeditiously but the GCAA won't allow it.
Payscale
If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!
Same thing with the airshow closures - over 45 flights planned to arrive in the 20 minutes after the airport reopens means that someone IS going to hold, probably for a significant period. Watch this space......flow control is coming - sooner, rather than later. Be interesting to see how that goes down with some!
Ultimately, we need to have dual independent ops for the two runways to be able to reduce the landing gaps.......again, hopefully sooner, rather than later.
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Payscale,
Forgot to add, re:
Therein lies the root of at least part of the problem.
If you know that you're going to arrive at the busiest time of the day and there's a fair chance of holding, why are you on fumes? Not really rocket science, is it?
Forgot to add, re:
Please understand that we sit up there flying on fumes sometimes.
If you know that you're going to arrive at the busiest time of the day and there's a fair chance of holding, why are you on fumes?
Not really rocket science, is it?
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Not really rocket science, is it?
As long as every frontline warrior accomodates the utterly stupid limitations set up by ignorant office-chair-farters, as long as we have to put in our sweat and additional non paid hours for airshows that can be held at Al Ain (oh god, no, that's on ennemies territory, I forgot), just as long NOTHING will happen.
We need to have multiple deviations, and I mean MULTIPLE. Only if it starts hurting, not only Dubai, but Abu Dhabi at least as much, if not more, only then some dish-dashs will be rattled and aired.
It's up to them, not us. Stop accusing each other and stop accomodating the real culprits.
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@Aeroflop
For your info, & if needed, to update yourself, although we have Parallel Runways in Dubai, they ARE DEPENDANT! The ‘L’ (left) runway is ALWAYS the ARRIVALS runway, & the ‘R’ (right) is the DEPARTURES runway, in dual ops, in BOTH directions 30/12. Although we have staggered configuration, the DEPARTURES Controller cannot depart traffic if the arriving traffic on the ARRIVALS runway has crossed 2nm from touchdown.
You could argue that if we do not have any departures, we could then probably use BOTH runways for ARRIVALS. Up to now we can ONLY land traffic on ‘L’ (left) runway, in dual ops, so if this ever happens in the future, then we could have a different scenario.
Thanks to GCAA we have our hands tied, so unless common sense prevails from their side & less politics are involved, then perhaps, operations could improve one day…………..
@Guy D’ageradar
Could not have been said any better, cheers mate
@Payscale
>>from>>Guy D’ageradar
Again, it’s ‘SAME SH!T – DIFFERENT DAY’………. & this is directed to our base operator, for BOTH DEPARTURES & ARRIVALS……..
If you claim to be one of the best long haul carriers, then why not have a look at your operations, perhaps splitting the departure gates & departure & arrival times altogether!
So, until everyone has the whole 'scenario & facts & procedures', then it would be understood in a much more easier way!
There are ways in which traffic could be handled more expedisiously, like introducing arrival slots, helping the ACC utilise the stack more effectively,
by using BOTH runways more effectively and reducing the in trail spacing on final approach appropriatly.
You could argue that if we do not have any departures, we could then probably use BOTH runways for ARRIVALS. Up to now we can ONLY land traffic on ‘L’ (left) runway, in dual ops, so if this ever happens in the future, then we could have a different scenario.
There are many many busier airports in the world than Dubai that can handle far greater amounts of traffic from which we can learn.
Thanks to GCAA we have our hands tied, so unless common sense prevails from their side & less politics are involved, then perhaps, operations could improve one day…………..
@Guy D’ageradar
Believe me. it's just as frustrating from our end - we all know that there are ways to make things move more efficiently but we also know that nothing is going to change in the short term.
There are also much more efficient ways to use the stack, as you said - but if it's not Dubai that's preventing their implementation - we would LOVE to have the bottom few levels and pull traffic off more expeditiously but the GCAA won't allow it.
@Payscale
If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!
>>from>>Guy D’ageradar
Short answer....because although we have 2 runways, only one of you can use the landing one at a time! If some commom sense was applied to scheduling, there WOULDN'T BE 20 of you arriving at the same time!
Again, it’s ‘SAME SH!T – DIFFERENT DAY’………. & this is directed to our base operator, for BOTH DEPARTURES & ARRIVALS……..
If you claim to be one of the best long haul carriers, then why not have a look at your operations, perhaps splitting the departure gates & departure & arrival times altogether!
So, until everyone has the whole 'scenario & facts & procedures', then it would be understood in a much more easier way!
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If we're lucky enough to get a month full of rush hour flights, and apply your rocket science, we're assured to get a mail from the cro-magnons populating the ugly palace, asking us to justify shoplifting the sheikeys wallet and management's bonus with too much additional fuel.
If you need something to cover your back, UAE GCAA AIC 04/2006 (04 October 2006) will do it:
"No delay expected" means...
'Do not anticipate being required to remain in the holding pattern longer than 20 mins before commencing an approach'
H-D
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Great posts all!
That AIC doesnt cover you. The wording I believe is SHOULD not MUST have 20 min arriving in DXB. Tried and tested by yours truly.
Bottom line is we have to help each other and have those diversion airport plates ready!
That AIC doesnt cover you. The wording I believe is SHOULD not MUST have 20 min arriving in DXB. Tried and tested by yours truly.
Bottom line is we have to help each other and have those diversion airport plates ready!
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Payscale,
Agreed - just trying to give a little perspective.
Pool
I don't think there's a sungle pruner here who would disagree with you. Unfotunately though, as long diversions don't happen on a regular basis and/or there's not a smoking pile of aluminium on the doorstep, the bean counters and men in white will continue to bask in their blissful ignorance.
Bottom line is we have to help each other and have those diversion airport plates ready!
Pool
I don't think there's a sungle pruner here who would disagree with you. Unfotunately though, as long diversions don't happen on a regular basis and/or there's not a smoking pile of aluminium on the doorstep, the bean counters and men in white will continue to bask in their blissful ignorance.
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'Do not anticipate being required to remain in the holding pattern longer than 20 mins before commencing an approach'
The wording I believe is SHOULD not MUST have 20 min arriving in DXB
Since contingency fuel is for "unforseen" events, it clearly doesn't apply to this which is in writing.
H-D
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Hi all,
As one of the DXB ATCO's who was on the airshow team, I feel I need to add my 2 pence worth to this thread.
Recceguy, I have never heard any of the airshow team or any of my other DXB ATC colleagues make any negative comments about the airshow, everyone enjoys working it, and everyone enjoys watching it.
I've met some arrogant pilots in my time, but you come across as very special, I suggest you crawl back under your rock.
In regards to why is the Dubai operation a bit of a nightmare from crews point of view at busy times, then all the answers that come before me sum it all up perfectly. We need the regulator to listen to us and take their iron grip off the operation, those of us that have come here from busy european airfields are horrified at how backwards some of the procedures and airfield restrictions are.
Gulf News, thanks for your kind comments about the EK departure window, those of that worked it thoroughly enjoyed it. We only hope that now senior EK management have seen what we can do when the shackles are removed, they'll use their considerable wasta (influence) and help us to get the procedures approved for normal everyday ops.
As for Payscale's comments, do you really think that ATC delay flights for fun? We all do the best we can do with the tools we're provided with against the backdrop of restrictions tieing us up. Comments like yours really make me question as to why we bother pushing the rules and bending over backwards when there are flight crew out there that are ignorant and ungrateful.
We're looking at ways of running an ATC roadshow at EK headquarters so you can ask questions about the operation and we can tell you about changes we're making to improve things, until then flight crew are always welcome to visit us.
As one of the DXB ATCO's who was on the airshow team, I feel I need to add my 2 pence worth to this thread.
Recceguy, I have never heard any of the airshow team or any of my other DXB ATC colleagues make any negative comments about the airshow, everyone enjoys working it, and everyone enjoys watching it.
I've met some arrogant pilots in my time, but you come across as very special, I suggest you crawl back under your rock.
In regards to why is the Dubai operation a bit of a nightmare from crews point of view at busy times, then all the answers that come before me sum it all up perfectly. We need the regulator to listen to us and take their iron grip off the operation, those of us that have come here from busy european airfields are horrified at how backwards some of the procedures and airfield restrictions are.
Gulf News, thanks for your kind comments about the EK departure window, those of that worked it thoroughly enjoyed it. We only hope that now senior EK management have seen what we can do when the shackles are removed, they'll use their considerable wasta (influence) and help us to get the procedures approved for normal everyday ops.
As for Payscale's comments, do you really think that ATC delay flights for fun? We all do the best we can do with the tools we're provided with against the backdrop of restrictions tieing us up. Comments like yours really make me question as to why we bother pushing the rules and bending over backwards when there are flight crew out there that are ignorant and ungrateful.
We're looking at ways of running an ATC roadshow at EK headquarters so you can ask questions about the operation and we can tell you about changes we're making to improve things, until then flight crew are always welcome to visit us.
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Well, just my tuppence worth
I operated out of Dubai the other afternoon and it was absolute poetry in motion. The ATC's did a brilliant job and it was great to get a glimpse of what could be.
Well done guys. It was great
J
I operated out of Dubai the other afternoon and it was absolute poetry in motion. The ATC's did a brilliant job and it was great to get a glimpse of what could be.
Well done guys. It was great
J
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Dude, you have been eating too much YELLOW SNOW! I actually thought I came across a open mined in asked for info on how things got so screw up the other night. And I got really good answers. Trust some fellow to read all sorts of stuff into it and call me an ignorant. Thanks buddy! as to ungrateful... well I am neither grateful or ungrateful. I don need to thank you for anything. You are doing your job according to the rules layed out in your regs and we have to follow ours. Sometimes that classes. So be it.... Have a great day