EK Command upgrade and fleet transfer policy FCI 2009-046
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Couldn't agree more, Dune ....the folks that joined as First Officers (hoping for a quick Command)were just plain stupid...especially if they were Commanders in their prior company.
An old axiom in the middle east, true yesterday, true today....'Join the airline at the position that you desire, not which you hope to attain.'
A simple concept to understand.
To those that did not heed Dune's advice...tough luck.
You were warned.
An old axiom in the middle east, true yesterday, true today....'Join the airline at the position that you desire, not which you hope to attain.'
A simple concept to understand.
To those that did not heed Dune's advice...tough luck.
You were warned.
Last edited by 411A; 16th Jun 2009 at 20:41.
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Plansmack,
Glad your taking it so well, but most DEC's are not that old and do not have grown children. Have a look at the seniority list, how many years left does one born in say '65 have left? Not sure how old his kids are, but he very likely does not have grown children. Nor does he have widebody experience, they were hiring many DEC's recently from 737 to 320...so much for the vast widebody experience and older gentlemen candidate they touted from the beginning of the program.
They do what they want and as always, timing is everything...
Having said this, EK is a pretty good place to hid for now
Glad your taking it so well, but most DEC's are not that old and do not have grown children. Have a look at the seniority list, how many years left does one born in say '65 have left? Not sure how old his kids are, but he very likely does not have grown children. Nor does he have widebody experience, they were hiring many DEC's recently from 737 to 320...so much for the vast widebody experience and older gentlemen candidate they touted from the beginning of the program.
They do what they want and as always, timing is everything...
Having said this, EK is a pretty good place to hid for now
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You know historically etc. EK Also advertised extensively in flight international spruiking the fast track your career-quick command line.
IE: if you don't have it in a firm/binding contract, many times the concerned individual will find himself firmly up the creek without a paddle.
In spades.
Get my drift?
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Dune & 411A
Would have been nice if you had also predict the World Financial Collapse, and the MEL incident. 
Emirates was growing like crazy, and their was no way to predict that they would stop the expansion for the next 5 to 10 years.
Things cannot go on indefinite not even the growth at EK, but most FO that joined in the last 3 years predicted that the growth would at least last an other 5 to 10 years.
I don't have a problem with the fact that all upgrades are delayed due to the Financial situation (that is part of life), but to except a DEC with 1,500 hrs on an EK A/C Type and someone trained by the EK training department for the past 3 years needs 3,000 hrs is an insult to our pilot group. This in my mind indicates that EK does not trust their own training department.
Emirates was growing like crazy, and their was no way to predict that they would stop the expansion for the next 5 to 10 years.
Things cannot go on indefinite not even the growth at EK, but most FO that joined in the last 3 years predicted that the growth would at least last an other 5 to 10 years.
I don't have a problem with the fact that all upgrades are delayed due to the Financial situation (that is part of life), but to except a DEC with 1,500 hrs on an EK A/C Type and someone trained by the EK training department for the past 3 years needs 3,000 hrs is an insult to our pilot group. This in my mind indicates that EK does not trust their own training department.
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Previous RJ Pilot
Ah, the pleasure of upgrading after 7 years. Lucky me. Except that as a previous RJ Captain I was making more then I am now. If you include the "free house" that becomes the only advantage to working here. Oh but then there is the school fees which off set the house benefit. I have to pay 80,000DHS annually for my kids. This is my out of pocket expense. I have one more kid then EK allows. However, I knew about all of that before joining, what I didn't know about was the changing contract that would keep me from upgrading. Upgrade was the only reason I came here and will be the reason I leave here. Oh god, I have to spend the next 5 years asking if it's "ok" if I use the toilet.
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Not gonna get too bent out of shape over this...
Its all about supply and demand... At this point in time, supply is more than demand. Once the industry and economy picks up, things will change.
We all know how fast things change in this industry... so take it easy
Signed
Its all about supply and demand... At this point in time, supply is more than demand. Once the industry and economy picks up, things will change.
We all know how fast things change in this industry... so take it easy
Signed
Last edited by taiar; 17th Jun 2009 at 05:27.
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EK has certainly come a long way from the days when one (now) captain clocked a large swathe of his required 2000 hours total flying time before switching to the LHS by spending almost his whole pay every month flying up and down the UAE coast in a single engine Piper.
True story.
True story.
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I agree that this is sh1t, and I am very disappointed for the F/O's here. Not all will be affected, but the guys who joined with the CRJ etc being the largest/heaviest type they have flown, the biggest rub is going to be the (hidden) fact that they now need 4000 hrs HARD TIME. This being time on jets over 55t.
With the best will in the world, this is going to take over 5.5 years to achieve here at around 750 hrs per year........ I do feel for you!
But it might be worth mentioning (as someone on a previous post did), that its all about supply and demand. This is the story today, while the management ride off into the sunset every night on their High Horses, safe in the knowledge that the have over a 'billion' applicants on file...... That's this year, give it 18 months guys, and yet again it will go full circle. That's aviation!
Don't forget, in May last year, we had around 20 suitable applicants on file for interview... That's why we got a splendid bonus and a decent pay rise, this year we have 100 times that amount on file, so we got nothing. Just remember the company is clearly making hay while the sun shines...... This will not always be the case.
Good luck chaps, and don't blame the skippers..... Its not our fault, and we are on your side!
With the best will in the world, this is going to take over 5.5 years to achieve here at around 750 hrs per year........ I do feel for you!
But it might be worth mentioning (as someone on a previous post did), that its all about supply and demand. This is the story today, while the management ride off into the sunset every night on their High Horses, safe in the knowledge that the have over a 'billion' applicants on file...... That's this year, give it 18 months guys, and yet again it will go full circle. That's aviation!
Don't forget, in May last year, we had around 20 suitable applicants on file for interview... That's why we got a splendid bonus and a decent pay rise, this year we have 100 times that amount on file, so we got nothing. Just remember the company is clearly making hay while the sun shines...... This will not always be the case.
Good luck chaps, and don't blame the skippers..... Its not our fault, and we are on your side!
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I think it reads 4000 hard time, of which at least 1000 in seat so 5.5 years looks about right....not great but EK is still a good port in a storm. Live your life in the meantime, don't get too wrapped up in all this, things will swing back again in a couple years.
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Actually it is going to take me closer to 8 years to achieve the 4000 hours hard time......
I do roughly 75% of my flying on the 340 and that is mostly augmented. 750 hours a year right now is more than I fly....they are offering leave left, right and center because they have too many F/O's on the bus. This means that I am doing closer to 600 hours a year. Given that 75% of this is factored by, on average, 60%(split between 4 pilot and 3 pilots flights), gives me less than 500 hard hours per year.
8 Years is what it takes a cadet to upgrade, so in one foul swoop, they have consigned the 10 000 hours I joined with to the trash bin and made my experience level the same as a cadet.
fcnts!
I do roughly 75% of my flying on the 340 and that is mostly augmented. 750 hours a year right now is more than I fly....they are offering leave left, right and center because they have too many F/O's on the bus. This means that I am doing closer to 600 hours a year. Given that 75% of this is factored by, on average, 60%(split between 4 pilot and 3 pilots flights), gives me less than 500 hard hours per year.
8 Years is what it takes a cadet to upgrade, so in one foul swoop, they have consigned the 10 000 hours I joined with to the trash bin and made my experience level the same as a cadet.
fcnts!
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there were zillion post here that the upgrade time will take longer as bigger EK gets, its not rocket science, if you join now or even last year EK has to get another 100 planes, minus DEC's minus the locals who will have the hours then.
the upgrade will take at least 8 to 10 years if you join now, my advise realize your losses and run if you can get another job, its not worth to sit it out because when you move to the left seat the LHS conditions will be totally eroded.
the upgrade will take at least 8 to 10 years if you join now, my advise realize your losses and run if you can get another job, its not worth to sit it out because when you move to the left seat the LHS conditions will be totally eroded.
I would hazard a guess that none of the guys scheduled for upgrade this year will have 3000hrs in EK...so what happens next?
On another thread someone mentioned he was about to be interviewed for 330DEC, don't know if was a wind up merchant or it was lost in translation, but it has a ring of truth to it now.
According to VP- Rumour Control the change comes from on high because of MEL, I think that both guys in the seats of that flight would still have there, after all it doesn't change requirements to be a f/o.
On another thread someone mentioned he was about to be interviewed for 330DEC, don't know if was a wind up merchant or it was lost in translation, but it has a ring of truth to it now.
According to VP- Rumour Control the change comes from on high because of MEL, I think that both guys in the seats of that flight would still have there, after all it doesn't change requirements to be a f/o.
Tim Clark said this to the Gulf News last week:
The complete article is here:
Gulfnews: Emirates chief is confident of staying profitable
So, an expected net growth of 70 passenger aircraft in the next nine years.
Let's say 8 upgrades per aircraft, so that'll be 560 upgrades.
But there's close to 1200 F/Os at Emirates already.
So with Clarks forecast (optimistic?) expansion plan 640+ current EK F/Os could still be in the right seat in the year 2018.
Do the math(s).
Mandatory retirements on age? Sure, there'll be some.
Check the seniority list, around 30 pensioners leaving EK in the next nine years.
DECs? Oh yes, there'll be Direct Entry Captains. A lot more than 30.
Mass resignations? Maybe... it's the only hope for EKs F/Os.
Earlier this week on another thread a few people suggested 5-7 years to upgrade at EK for new joiners. Maybe they can back that forecast up with some objective data, I'd like to see it. I predict sometime between 12 years and never for upgrade for new joiners at EK.
Emirates' fleet will expand from 126 passenger aircraft now to 196 planes by 2018
Gulfnews: Emirates chief is confident of staying profitable
So, an expected net growth of 70 passenger aircraft in the next nine years.
Let's say 8 upgrades per aircraft, so that'll be 560 upgrades.
But there's close to 1200 F/Os at Emirates already.
So with Clarks forecast (optimistic?) expansion plan 640+ current EK F/Os could still be in the right seat in the year 2018.
Do the math(s).
Mandatory retirements on age? Sure, there'll be some.
Check the seniority list, around 30 pensioners leaving EK in the next nine years.
DECs? Oh yes, there'll be Direct Entry Captains. A lot more than 30.
Mass resignations? Maybe... it's the only hope for EKs F/Os.
Earlier this week on another thread a few people suggested 5-7 years to upgrade at EK for new joiners. Maybe they can back that forecast up with some objective data, I'd like to see it. I predict sometime between 12 years and never for upgrade for new joiners at EK.
Last edited by whossorrynow; 17th Jun 2009 at 16:42. Reason: scan & content
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Take a guess ???
Who can tell time to upgrade now? Nobody, simple fact. Just depends when they change the rule again. For better or for worst. I go for second choice. Because like mentioned before so many seats are available and joining now can be a long way to the left seat. But we all know that. Right time right place. Now, wrong time, wrong place. Next is to lower minimum experience to attract the most motivated pilots willing to fly for free forever in the right seat.
Keep Discovering
Keep Discovering
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Add to that @30 upgrades this year and no airplanes next year 2010/2011, the 3-4 year pilots could be looking at another 2-3 years depending on fleet. AirBus being the better one, backlog of 777 fo's is going to be hugh. What are the orders on the 777 not options beyond 2010?
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'Tis a pity the the so-called 'management' at EK could get it (apparently) all so wrong, whereas in a new (generally speaking) company they had the opportunity to get it right, with regard to crew manning and selection.
Amateur hour, seems to me.
They would not be the first...nor the last.
Amateur hour, seems to me.
They would not be the first...nor the last.
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380 upgrades
I do agree with the A380 upgrade policy. It not right to get your first command on the Flagship bird. First of all there would be loads of 28 year old A380 commander with only 6000 hours in mostly cruise. I would not be comfortable knowing that a very inexperienced commander was bringing it down on a contaminated runway at night in max crosswind in ie Kangerlusuaq.
The pilots on the other fleets would not be able to aspire to the fat one if they so choose.
Yes the company promised..... if you believe that.....
The pilots on the other fleets would not be able to aspire to the fat one if they so choose.
Yes the company promised..... if you believe that.....
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...you may not agree..
In my humble opinion it seems a lot of people are taking these changes at EK rather personally. I’m willing to bet that the powers that be would be hard-pushed to name but a hand-full of the FO’s they are persecuting or the Dec’s they are supposedly favouring. It all boils down to a question of economics. To seat a Dec on the left will always be cheaper and quicker than upgrading. Does it make it right? Well off course not, but it’s not just EK as we all know. It’s an industry option that airlines will exercise as and when they see fit.
What’s apparent too is in most compromised FOs opinion is that potential DEC’s all over the World are just waiting for EK to lower their requirements so they can sneak in and take their jobs. Actually, the job with EK is not for everybody, and in considering it, I’d like to think one would approach the option from many angles, in much the same way as one would consider joining EY, GF, QR etc. One would look at the pro’s and con’s.., (no pun intended..!), and decide. Not simply to jump in head first because it’s EK.
I see too a situation where some EK guys are busy blasting the company for being so bad, but subconsciously acknowledging that it’s still good enough for everybody else to be trying to get in and steal their Command..? Contrary to popular belief, there are some of us who are happy where we are and really have no interest in joining EK...for the moment anyway, but should things change, be sure I’ll also be sending in my CV for the DEC position with no regards to what any of you haters think. Does that make me bad? Well I’ve yet to meet someone who turned down a job because they felt guilty about all the people in the queue he’d jumped! (..if you’re out there, please let me know).
While I’m here, too many times I hear that DEC’s don’t know anything once on line and the FO saves the day! Well I’m sure if any of you were to join my company, you’d be just as lost as I would be in yours initially. If you happen to know something better than I do in the company you’ve been in for the past 3 years, it makes me more comfortable to be flying with you, but I’m not convinced that’s a reason why you should be sitting where I am! Let’s be fair Guys. “Don’t hate the players, hate the Game”.
Company policy does not decide when one is ready to be a good commander let’s get that straight. It is just that. Company policy. All it does is dictate when and how they choose to whatever they please. Next year they may decide they need 4000 total time again for command, or maybe, no more circling approaches to be conducted...etc. It doesn’t the make it wrong now or right then, it will just be a different stance.
In the end, the fast command is basically being given command with less hours than you’d be expected to otherwise have in the industry ideal, correct me if I’m wrong; Hence less experience. Having not been at EK previously, would it be fair to say that a DEC might have actually served his time in the trenches a lot longer than you ever plan to and may actually deserve the offer? Hours and experience are what matter in aviation. Everything else pretty much falls into place after that, quite neatly too! (...at times
)
So please...enough with the conspiracy theories. Speedy upgrade wishes to all! It’s business, never personal, “and that’s all I’ve got to say about that!”
What’s apparent too is in most compromised FOs opinion is that potential DEC’s all over the World are just waiting for EK to lower their requirements so they can sneak in and take their jobs. Actually, the job with EK is not for everybody, and in considering it, I’d like to think one would approach the option from many angles, in much the same way as one would consider joining EY, GF, QR etc. One would look at the pro’s and con’s.., (no pun intended..!), and decide. Not simply to jump in head first because it’s EK.
I see too a situation where some EK guys are busy blasting the company for being so bad, but subconsciously acknowledging that it’s still good enough for everybody else to be trying to get in and steal their Command..? Contrary to popular belief, there are some of us who are happy where we are and really have no interest in joining EK...for the moment anyway, but should things change, be sure I’ll also be sending in my CV for the DEC position with no regards to what any of you haters think. Does that make me bad? Well I’ve yet to meet someone who turned down a job because they felt guilty about all the people in the queue he’d jumped! (..if you’re out there, please let me know).
While I’m here, too many times I hear that DEC’s don’t know anything once on line and the FO saves the day! Well I’m sure if any of you were to join my company, you’d be just as lost as I would be in yours initially. If you happen to know something better than I do in the company you’ve been in for the past 3 years, it makes me more comfortable to be flying with you, but I’m not convinced that’s a reason why you should be sitting where I am! Let’s be fair Guys. “Don’t hate the players, hate the Game”.
Company policy does not decide when one is ready to be a good commander let’s get that straight. It is just that. Company policy. All it does is dictate when and how they choose to whatever they please. Next year they may decide they need 4000 total time again for command, or maybe, no more circling approaches to be conducted...etc. It doesn’t the make it wrong now or right then, it will just be a different stance.
In the end, the fast command is basically being given command with less hours than you’d be expected to otherwise have in the industry ideal, correct me if I’m wrong; Hence less experience. Having not been at EK previously, would it be fair to say that a DEC might have actually served his time in the trenches a lot longer than you ever plan to and may actually deserve the offer? Hours and experience are what matter in aviation. Everything else pretty much falls into place after that, quite neatly too! (...at times
)So please...enough with the conspiracy theories. Speedy upgrade wishes to all! It’s business, never personal, “and that’s all I’ve got to say about that!”