More flying on fumes at EK

[lowstandard]

As well, reserve fuel of 30 minutes is based on ISA, 1500' above dest airport at holding speed at est landing weight. I suppose I dont have to tell anyone that DXB this time of year is a little off ISA and I highly doubt that 30 mins where ever you use it wont be at holding speed especially in dubai.

The stats on contingency fumes does not take into account any extra fuel boarded for wx, atc etc. Coming home from MNL this month we only used .3 of our contingency but all of our 1.0 extra for wx and atc. Delays on the ground at MNL would have also meant using some CF during taxi, not a nice feeling with a long night ahead.

Next time anyone does a go around, make a quick note of how much fuel you use, 2.6 is the lowest Ive seen on the 777.

[kwachon]

Some very interesting comments regarding minmum fuel, contingency fuel etc. I do not fly for EK but can tell you that the problem is not with only your airline. Last week whilst holding at Mumbai, Etihad was told to enter the hold with a clearance time 18 minutes hence, he advised unable and diverted to his alternate, Ahemdabad. Some minutes later Singapore did virtually the same thing.
Delays were not weather related, just the usual early evening chaos with the operation of RW 14 causing alternate arrivals and departures. Nobody declared min fuel or PAN etc, just headed off. I would have thought the costs involved would be considerable but I give the crews their due, they took the decision and stuck with it.

Just an observation, no critiscism meant or intended.

KW

[Wiley]

lowstandard, if in a 773, you did very well burning only 2.6 tonnes. I've always mentally worked on 2.7 tonnes at a minimum. 3 tonnes is more realistic as a conservative average, so if it really wasn't your day and you were forced to do a go around when approaching with little more than final reserves remaining, you need to start that turn onto downwind without delay and scream blue bloody murder that you need tight vectoring for another very short approach.

I think if I was in the position of approaching with only a few hundred kgs above final reserves remaining, I'd have the autoland plugged in, let ATC know I was fuel critical and would brief my FO that I was landing whatever the circumstances (one on, not visual at the minima [highly unlikely in a 'commit' scenario] etc). Unless there was a big aluminium tube full of people on or very near the threshold, I'd land - and worry about the paperwork afterwards. Even losing your licence would be preferable to the alternative!

What I didn't include in my long earlier tome was to give ATC a headsup 5 minutes of so before you reach any point of no return, (like reaching the fuel figure where you will commit to destintion), i.e., ensure that they're aware you're about to commit to destination. If they can, they'll do everything they can to help, if only by giving you a realistic EAT, which is a vitally important piece of information if you're committing to destintion. If you've committed and you're 5 minutes to the "I must start the approach now" time, ATC will be very co-operative if you tell them that in five minutes from now, you'll be declaring an emergency.

Realistically, it would be very, very unusual - to the odds of winning the lottery - to ever find yourself into such a situation. However, it's sensible to have a game plan clear in your mind should you one day be so unlucky.



The whole exercise could be described in one sentence: "If you're not comfortable with the situation, you should have diverted already."

And somebody in Abu Dhabi must be made to understand that the current cross country vectoring into Dubai simply HAS to be replaced with a more sensible system where crews can have a better idea of how much fuel they're going to burn between exiting the hold and landing.

[shneidertrophy]

It looks like all the regional major players (EK, EY and QR) have fuel managers (SVPOs...) in place, all copying eachother in their new fuel policies.

We are all being monitored for fuel burn, we all fly with 3% contingency fuel (ERA), we are all being pushed by legions of deskflying managers, claiming from within their airconditioned offices that using your 3% contingency during taxi out is ABSOLUTELY normal.
In QR we even have a memo stating that the company actually prefers to have diversions from time to time, as long as we all take flight plan fuel no matter what! EK now moved to inflight re-clearance, QR is moving in that direction as we speak.

A few things these MBA geeks forget are mostly mentioned here already, but I just wanted to point out some of them:

1) The stress factor involved in this sort of decision making is totally being overlooked. If I as a Captain have to start calculating 4 hrs before my ETA whether I will make it or not on the ground with my legal fuel required, than this causes unnecessary stress. Maybe the weathered commander can cope with this, but what about his possibly less experienced FO. What about the countless other Human Factors that might play a role in the whole decision making process. Do we really need this after a 12hr flight?

2) The whole Gulf region became unpredictable with regards to possible holding times or delays., especially during peak moments. DXB has its notorious holdings, DOH will vector you around for ever and ever on the lowest altitudes/speeds possible. So how are we supposed to make a proper decision based on a totally unpredictable environment?

3) The whole regions uses the same departure and arrival waves for their traffic, so you can be sure that if you find yourself in a precarious situation you are NOT alone! So the whole safeguard of declaring emergencies etc etc might as well be useless as you are number 5 under PAN or MAYDAY.

Please do not get me wrong. I am a PRO fuel saving and I do agree that we as pilots can have an impact on the global environmental issue. But there are many ways to do this and I think that, before we start implementing policies like this one, we first should deal with the whole array of other problems such as flying techniques, airspace congestion, traffic flow management and so on.
Once all this has been streamlined, only than I will start considering flying at the absolute minimum levels of fuel.

Maybe the desk flyers should be put a couple of times in the HOT seat of a shiny tube, stuck in a holding with the low level fuel warnings going of. Lets see how he/she reacts to that. And I do not even want to think what would happen if our pax knew what was going on upfront in situations like this!


Sidenote:

In QR the new shining light regarding fuel and the green corporate image is by the way an ex EK pilot. C.S. Any feedback on him is more than welcome! He left about 6 years ago there and went via SQ and IATA to finally end up in QR.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Full fuel is the best navigator

Schneider - I agree with you. But if your fuel monitoring system tells you that a certain aircraft/engine combination during the last 91 flights on a certain sector (like DXB-VIE) has not burned a single kg of CONT fuel ... what is the issue of doing a fuel DP on that sector? That still gives you 700kg. If we did analysed CONT99 it would be zippo. Shu fiy shey, habibi?

[shneidertrophy]

That all depends how reliable your fuel monitoring system is no, isnt it?

I do not know what system is being used in EK, but at QR they got a system locally designed by a software firm in one of the Soukhs!. This basically consists of Excel spreadsheets being filled out by a full time office clerk. The data are collected from the filled out flight plans. The statitsics spitted out by the spreadsheet are then presented to the management and maybe, just maybe we receive an update regarding this after 3 months!

At QR improvement is on the way as we just bought a new system, but untill now we have been flying around on fumes based on erroneous statistics.

So maybe at EK this sytem works better. Good for you guys. It still does not solve your basic problems as mentioned above! No system in the world can predict the arrival delays at DXB, the vectoring in Doha or the WX avoidance over MCT during the winter.

There is nothing which can not be proven by statistics, surely you must know that! But as long as a company is not willing to take part in the responsibility regarding uplifting of fuel, I think we should all be VERY cautious regarding all this as the legal consequences can be HUGE!

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Schneider and fuel monitoring

Well ... what can I say about our fuel monitoring. It takes the shutdown fuel (ACARS). Compares it against flight plan fuel and corrects it for transport fuel for EXTRA and AZFW from the departure control system. Then it tells you how much CONT was burned on this flight/ sector/ tail/ pilot/ city pair/ for whatever period you ask it for. So yes - I think it is not bad. None of the DP sectors (total of 5 right now) arrives at Dubai during peak time. None has burned a single kg of CONT during the last last three month. So - once again: I don't know what the issue is - considering that full CONT plus ADDNL will be planned at the slightest hint of anything being out of the ordinary.

[shneidertrophy]

Totally agree with you in this case. Absolutely.

And I am sure that in case the UAE could sort out there horrendous ATC problems into DXB, most pilots will accept this new policy as there actually is nothing new about it. CX has been doing this for decades!

But the infrastructure (dispatch, fuel monitoring, flight watch) has to be in place and has to be 100% trustworthy.

[Wiley]

I can't speak for Doha, but Dubai desperately needs a "Lambourne Hold" where aircraft can remain IN THE CCLEAN CONFIGURATION until released from the hold and then fly a constant, idle descent, where they are not required to extend flap until the final turn inbound towards base, as Heathrow has been able to make work in an equally busy, if not busier environment for years now.

At Heathrow, you can predict how much fuel you will burn from the hold to touchdown to within 100 kgs with almost certainly. There's no reason the same could not apply at Dubai, but the fact is, you can't. The vectoring - and speed control which sometimes even demands gear extension and then level flight on a heavy 773 - is problematic for fuel planning, to put it mildly.

Pilots are constantly badgered to save fuel, to the point of single engine taxi and delay in starting the APU(!), but the worst offending port in the whole EK network for gross wastage of fuel is Dubai, EK's home port, with wasteful early descents to comply with airspace requirements between Iran and UAE and similar restrictions, again demanded by UAE, for traffic coming from the Bahrain or Muscat FIRs. (The F270 restriction works fine if it's a straight in approach, but wastes around 200-300kgs if landing on the reciprocal runway.)

EK management say these problems can't be fixed. That's not the case. The truth is, they haven't had the will to fix them. Just as they haven't had the will to TELL the individual in Abu Dhabi ATC who insists that no holding should occur in Dubai airspace that his plan for traffic management is plain wrong.

If they fixed these problems and allowed the very many flights that arrive in Dubai daily to conduct a constant, idle descent and remain clean until flap extension is required, the savings in fuel would be mind-boggling.

And if holding is required, put the holding patterns close enough to allow a descent the like of which Heathrow gives its traffic. This would result in major stress relief for both the pilots and ATCOs involved.

End of rant.

[Antman]

I Have 2 points.

1. On the Bus I can't find a figure for unusable fuel only min required for takeoff???

2. The contingency fuel used on the fuel analysis does not take PIC extra into account, EG. If for instance if all the pilots on the previous 90 (or whatever) flights carried say 1 ton extra and burned 999 kg of that PIC extra, the company stats would show contigency fuel used 0 kg. What would be useful is if we got figures telling us how much above or below planned trip fuel the average is. But then that would be a level playing field??

[BlueSkye]

The problems can't be fixed because Emirates Airlines and her handlers won't allow the GCAA to fix them.

[MTOW]

I have a mate in SQ who says that on their 777s, they have a register of how much unuseable fuel each aircraft has and load the extra fuel to cover it. (Didn't ask him how they went about finding that there was an unuseable fuel problem on their 777 fleet.)

Isn't it interesting that this problem doesn't exist on the EK fleet?

I'd have to agree that the vectoring all over the UAE can be a bit of a problem, especially around the midnight rush hour. It can really gobble up the fuel, especially when asked to slow down below min clean speed, which sometimes happens very early.

BlueSkye, I'm assuming you're an ATCO. Care to give us some more details on that point?

[Tail Rota]

Guys this is crazy

Its the pilot in command who has the final say not some retired out of touch number crunching office worker.

If you want fuel take it.

We know what we are doing.....they dont.!!!
We fly all night, all over the planet, risking our lives day after day while the fat cats sit behind the desk knowing all.

They cannot do what we do. They were never good at it and that is why they are in the Big Office. Its safer for us all.

EK management is losing it....something big is going to happen and the policy makers will all duck for cover like they did over Melbourne.

Notice to ED........Tail Rota is going to take as much gas as he thinks he needs. Sorry about ya bonus

My passengers saftey is more important than your budget.

TR

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Antman: PIC EXTRA

Antman: Not true. Take a look at the reverse of the stat fuel briefing sheet. It is explained there. CONT fuel is ALWAYS consumed first when using anything > trip+taxi. -- Irrespective of the amounts of ADDNL and EXTRA carried. The system will only tell you the transport fuel for the EXTRA carried as a separate figure.

[Schibulsky]

Whats the real problem?

I think you guys are mixing something up.
The issue of providing a legal reclearance plan is NOT the point, its the policy about taking extra fuel.
I provided recl. plans for more than 15 years to LH crew who took it as it was: the absolute legal minimum, not even a recommendation for fueling.
But the real problem at EK starts when its wise to take some extra fuel...you guys are talking here about "the usual ATC chaos" or the "seasonal wx" at some destination. Thats YOUR decision and thats why they call you "commander" and not "driver".
Dispatch is not allowed to give extra fuel if not req by SMNC, (although I never followed that rule ) and if you do not have the knowledge and/or balls to know when to take some extra you should please stop whining!
I know thats easy to say. But if you are not able to take a stand when questioned about your fuel decision then all the talk about risking the life of you and your pax is just hot air!
Happy fueling!

P.S. Tail Rota, a good shrink might help you to understand that not all office workers are idiots who hate you

[Antman]

5.5 will turn it over and have a look. I normally base my fuel uplift on previous experience, route, wx, time of arrival etc.

One thing I don't understand is managements fixation with fuel uplift and not fuel burn.

We have all this technology giving ops real time information. Staffing levels at dispatch aside, how difficult would it be for someone, once everybody is airborne out of say Europe inbound to DXB, too ask the aircraft via acars for there estimate for DESDI. Now if everybody replies honestly, he can then build a sequence and give everybody a time to cross DESDI 3 mins apart in trail, which will give 20 - 30 nms seperation at DESDI. Very easy to do if most of your aircraft still have 4 -5+ hours to DESDI. Do the same from the East through BUBIN, and because EK proberbly has approx 80% of traffic into DXB during these waves there should be enough gaps to fit other operators in with out too much hassle which would I'd guess would reduce holding by 80% and help with good CDA's(Something for training to sort out). Proberbly save enough Fuel Burn from not holding or being vectored(in the too small airspace) all over the place to employ 2 - 6 dedicated pro's at this in a week.

Just too easy and simple minded for management to target fuel uplift and not fuel burned where the real money is spent.

The above will proberbly also help with the daily mess through KABAN.

[pool]

With all due respect Schibulsky, I gather you might mix up some things here as well, just as modern operators.

Dispatch is not allowed to give extra fuel if not req by SMNC

Let’s go back and analyze just WHY dispatch was introduced. With LH operations duty times became limiting to crew. Simultaneously the amount of information to digest for such LH flights increased. It became a necessity to have someone help in flight planning. Dispatchers were handed this duty, they check all the relevant data, prepare a flight plan and propose this to the captain who finally decides about fuel. With the classic dispatchers we got a PROPOSITION which contained a thorough preparation and analysis of the flight plus the relevant company procedures. Today dispatchers just push a button and a computer flight plan is printed and handed over to the captain. With the amount of flights per dispatcher they can’t do a proper analysis and due to the segregation of dispatchers and pilots, as well as among pilots themselves, there is virtually NO exchange of experience or relevant information. Underlined by your citation it is almost solely SMNC that are entitled to give additional fuel, the very guys who have neither prepared or studied the daily relevant information, nor will put their butt on the line. This is typical for today’s concept of modern management: Call all the shots, don’t listen to others or consider their thoughts, take away their time necessary to do their job due to saving constraints, sack those who complain, but when the s#it hits the fan blame it all on them and sack them for good.

It is wrong. We are pushed to feel guilty if taking the necessary fuel. The stats are plain useless to us. They should be used as base for dispatch to make sound propositions. YOU have the big picture, with so many flights to compare on a daily base. You see a situation developing. We sometimes do such flights once every 6 months, just consider the experience we can have. It can’t be OUR duty to consider statistics because we lack the capability to interpret them!
I know, I know, you are understaffed and overworked. But shoving down on us more or less generic flight plans and some silly statistics, new and even leaner policies but NO BACK UP whatsoever if any tiny little thing goes off schedule, such rule by fear is utterly despicable and simply won’t work. I am not taking it out on you, the company just loves “divide and rule”, but to read your above statement shows no balls from your side as well. You know better but don’t mention it, out of the same fear.
Bravo EK.

[Wiley]

Great idea, Antman, but I bet some weenie in Marketing would torpedo it for some reason "pilots wouldn't understand". Given how high the percentage of the midnight to 2am traffic into Dubai are EK flights, it would help.

Why don't you put it in to the 'good ideas' scheme? Nothing will get done until your 'patent' on the idea lapses, but there's a fair chance it'll surface eventually under a slightly different guise as some SVP's brainchild.

[Schibulsky]

@pool

You are "breaking in open doors" as we say in Germany. I back you up 100%.
The stuation at EK Dispatch is a joke, overworked, understaffed and lots of departments like to interfere with our work.
My balls already caused AAR to call for my sacking, so please don't lecture me on that.
I also told my dispatchers to plan extra fuel any time it makes sense and backed them up as well.
But its waste of time to try to change anything in this company, thats why I am leaving.

I just wanted to point out that reclearance planning is nothing unusual if not abused by the company as it is with EK!
And whining on pprune does not change anything if not backed by some balls from your side.
And YES I know its dangerous for you at the moment!

Good luck!!

[pool]

Sorry to hear another pro is leaving Schibulsky.
I know what it's like to be in for t&b. The worst part was trying not to lol when they came up with their ridiculous arguments and really believing in them.