FUEL EMERGENCY at Dubai airport
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FUEL EMERGENCY at Dubai airport
Guess what, yesterday 4 fuel emergencies were declared at almost the same time...Dubai was apparently asking 15 miles separation (nothing in the notams) for all the inbound metal tubes and aircrafts were stuck in every holdings around the airport.
Having said that, are you really going to take extra fuel or maybe prepare an ASR for every single flight going back to Dubai these days…
Don’t forget guys, ASR might be a solution to cover your ass (or not)... But never forget that you are responsible for hundreds of lives at the end of the day.
Fuel policy is only there for a legal aspect….
Having said that, are you really going to take extra fuel or maybe prepare an ASR for every single flight going back to Dubai these days…
Don’t forget guys, ASR might be a solution to cover your ass (or not)... But never forget that you are responsible for hundreds of lives at the end of the day.
Fuel policy is only there for a legal aspect….
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I certainly hope when they declared their emergency that they made sure they landed below final reserve. If not, then they will be asked (mandated) to come in and have explained to them the fuel policy.
Twelve a/c in the hold over Desdi from f150 to f310. The stress in the voices of the pilots was very evident. Why put yourself in that position....ADD THE GAS. The weather was perfect, the runway never changed. WTFO?
Twelve a/c in the hold over Desdi from f150 to f310. The stress in the voices of the pilots was very evident. Why put yourself in that position....ADD THE GAS. The weather was perfect, the runway never changed. WTFO?
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Communication?????
Situation from the ground: The 4 EK flts declaring the fuel emergency never bothered to call NCC for assistance, so they screwed up all the other flts who were in the hold. They had called in cause ATC never issued an estimated time of app, got handling at altn SHJ confirmed and were actually relaxed with that additional fuel... until they got more holding due to the emergencies 
Sorry guys, but IMHO that was poor operational awareness from the crews declaring emergency!
You all should be aware of whats the game at DXB at peak times
They had called in cause ATC never issued an estimated time of app, got handling at altn SHJ confirmed and were actually relaxed with that additional fuel... until they got more holding due to the emergencies Sorry guys, but IMHO that was poor operational awareness from the crews declaring emergency!
You all should be aware of whats the game at DXB at peak times
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Actually, according to our fuel policy,
''If at any time, it becomes apparent that the aircraft MAY land with less than Final Reserve, a PAN call to ATC must be made, reporting fuel remaining in minutes.
If at any time........... the aircraft WILL land with less than Final Reserve, a MAYDAY call to ATC must be made..............''
Taking extra fuel is the best option and there has not been one instance when a pilot has been 'disclipined' for taking a reasonable amount of extra fuel.
DIVERT when in doubt, Committing to destination in Dubai is not exactly a great idea, for various reasons.
And as a final option, declare an Emergency.
The company has fostered an atmosphere that is causing pilots to second guess even their most benign decisions. This 'fear' culture does not work in the world of aviation. Fuel is one area, where being conservative if in doubt, should be the only policy.
By the way, out of curiousity, what time of day did all of this happen?
''If at any time, it becomes apparent that the aircraft MAY land with less than Final Reserve, a PAN call to ATC must be made, reporting fuel remaining in minutes.
If at any time........... the aircraft WILL land with less than Final Reserve, a MAYDAY call to ATC must be made..............''
Taking extra fuel is the best option and there has not been one instance when a pilot has been 'disclipined' for taking a reasonable amount of extra fuel.
DIVERT when in doubt, Committing to destination in Dubai is not exactly a great idea, for various reasons.
And as a final option, declare an Emergency.
The company has fostered an atmosphere that is causing pilots to second guess even their most benign decisions. This 'fear' culture does not work in the world of aviation. Fuel is one area, where being conservative if in doubt, should be the only policy.
By the way, out of curiousity, what time of day did all of this happen?
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Guys don't succumb to the management pressure, they're not up there with you as you save fuel by not carrying enough and then end up taking undue risks. As the post above mentions, play it conservative always.
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Schibulsky
Allthough I sympathize with your comment, the last time we asked NCC for assistance, we got nothing usable and the trickle came too late anyway.
At the debriefing it was stipulated that they were understaffed to provide flight watch. They could only step in once we are in trouble.
To say someone screwed up "the others" when running into an unexpected fuel shortage is not very useful aswell.
It is management who pressure us to save fuel at our very own risk (no symathy for the ones running into trouble, just warning letters), shoving any assistance onto you guys who are desperately understaffed and undertrained, but they themselves do squat to improve the real problem, meaning -> ATC coordination and airport management, which are both in their responsibility. But that would mean balls, work and (god forbid!!) money ....
Don't shoot at each other guys, shoot at the real culprits, meaning EK management, Dnata and the DGCAA/GCAA.
Allthough I sympathize with your comment, the last time we asked NCC for assistance, we got nothing usable and the trickle came too late anyway.
At the debriefing it was stipulated that they were understaffed to provide flight watch. They could only step in once we are in trouble.
To say someone screwed up "the others" when running into an unexpected fuel shortage is not very useful aswell.
It is management who pressure us to save fuel at our very own risk (no symathy for the ones running into trouble, just warning letters), shoving any assistance onto you guys who are desperately understaffed and undertrained, but they themselves do squat to improve the real problem, meaning -> ATC coordination and airport management, which are both in their responsibility. But that would mean balls, work and (god forbid!!) money ....
Don't shoot at each other guys, shoot at the real culprits, meaning EK management, Dnata and the DGCAA/GCAA.
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pool
I am absolutely on your side and I know who the responsible morons are.
It would be just a bit more "professional" if you later can tell the monday quarterbacks that you exhausted all your options b4 declaring emergency.
And I would not call it an "unexpected" fuel shortage, you should know your numbers well ahead.
And you are right about the staff situation at the NCC...another one down when I leave end of summer
P.S. I am and was always happy to put some more fuel on...on the house
I am absolutely on your side and I know who the responsible morons are.
It would be just a bit more "professional" if you later can tell the monday quarterbacks that you exhausted all your options b4 declaring emergency.
And I would not call it an "unexpected" fuel shortage, you should know your numbers well ahead.
And you are right about the staff situation at the NCC...another one down when I leave end of summer
P.S. I am and was always happy to put some more fuel on...on the house
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end of summer
Dear Schibulsky,
are you really leaving at the end of the summer?
I am very happy for you (and a bit envious
) and i wish You all the best out of the sandpit
Flare
are you really leaving at the end of the summer?
I am very happy for you (and a bit envious
) and i wish You all the best out of the sandpitFlare
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Thanks flare!
Yep...signed my new contract and typed the resignation
5 months...one more summer and one ramadan to go
Just got enough of this
madhouse/kindergarten 
Wish you all the best and dont let the fs get you down!
p.s. anybody looking for a nice Pajero?
5 months...one more summer and one ramadan to go
Just got enough of this
madhouse/kindergarten Wish you all the best and dont let the f
s get you down!p.s. anybody looking for a nice Pajero?
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Its really quite simple. DXB has two peak arrival times: the first between 5:00 am and 7:00 am, the other between 9:30 pm and 1:00 am, local times. If you are scheduled to arrive around those times, carry extra fuel, because you will hold or at east spend a few extra minutes on vectors. Your managers should be forgiving; these hours are known to them, after all, they do the scheduling...
Outside of those times, minimal delays could be caused by single runway ops or a runway change due to winds. Hope this helps.
Outside of those times, minimal delays could be caused by single runway ops or a runway change due to winds. Hope this helps.
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The AIC entitled "Aeroplanes inbound to the UAE with fuel reserves approaching minimum" dated 04 October 2006 is still valid and says:
3. The information concerning delays that is passed to the crew by the controller is the best available at the the time and takes account of the expected volume of traffic at the aeroplanes estimated arrival time. If the information available to the controller indicates a reasonably easy flow of traffic, and Estimated Approach Times (EAT) are not being issued for the destination aerodrome, the response to a request about delay will be 'No delay expected'.
3.1 NO delay expected means in these circumstances:
'DO not anticipate being required to remain in a holding pattern longer than 20 minutes before commencing an approach'.
I'm not a management genius but in the real world I take this to mean always arrive with at least 20 minutes holding fuel. This would especially apply during the peak times mentioned above. Management know about the AIC, the just don't publicize it.
3. The information concerning delays that is passed to the crew by the controller is the best available at the the time and takes account of the expected volume of traffic at the aeroplanes estimated arrival time. If the information available to the controller indicates a reasonably easy flow of traffic, and Estimated Approach Times (EAT) are not being issued for the destination aerodrome, the response to a request about delay will be 'No delay expected'.
3.1 NO delay expected means in these circumstances:
'DO not anticipate being required to remain in a holding pattern longer than 20 minutes before commencing an approach'.
I'm not a management genius but in the real world I take this to mean always arrive with at least 20 minutes holding fuel. This would especially apply during the peak times mentioned above. Management know about the AIC, the just don't publicize it.
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Dubai has 2 runways, operated as dependent parallels (as in, take offs from the right are subject to spacing between arrivals on the left, to protect the go-around path).
Assuming 5nm gaps on final at 160kts, there is nothing unusual about 15nm spacing through DESDI and BUBIN at 250 or 230kts. Yes, 15 miles through each gate equals 7.5 miles on final, but only if you can all do 250kts to the threshold. No? Thought not. So....15 miles is normal through the arrival gates. If you have a go-around in the mix or if flow has not been imposed soon enough, larger spacing will be requested until the situation stabilises because, as many of you will be aware, the alternative is being vectored an extra 30 miles.
Until the operators stop scheduling flights to arrive ALL at the times mentioned by Canoehead, there will always be holding at DESDI and BUBIN at those times. While there are probably more go-arounds at Dubai than at comparable airports (thanks mainly to the GCAA requirement for double the ICAO-standard runway separation) and these add to the delays in the hold, the biggest single issue is the glut of arrivals at certain times. Incidentally, the preponderance of similar callsigns does not help!
Assuming 5nm gaps on final at 160kts, there is nothing unusual about 15nm spacing through DESDI and BUBIN at 250 or 230kts. Yes, 15 miles through each gate equals 7.5 miles on final, but only if you can all do 250kts to the threshold. No? Thought not. So....15 miles is normal through the arrival gates. If you have a go-around in the mix or if flow has not been imposed soon enough, larger spacing will be requested until the situation stabilises because, as many of you will be aware, the alternative is being vectored an extra 30 miles.
Until the operators stop scheduling flights to arrive ALL at the times mentioned by Canoehead, there will always be holding at DESDI and BUBIN at those times. While there are probably more go-arounds at Dubai than at comparable airports (thanks mainly to the GCAA requirement for double the ICAO-standard runway separation) and these add to the delays in the hold, the biggest single issue is the glut of arrivals at certain times. Incidentally, the preponderance of similar callsigns does not help!
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I don't carry extra fuel into Dubai unless there's fog or TS - holding for half an hour still gets me on the ground with around 45 mins fuel remaining. Personally I actually think guys are way too early to call "Bingo".
If you are in the hold at Desdi you don't need to commit or divert till you get down to about 5.5 tonnes or so, less if its 12. Practically speaking you don't have to commit to Dubai as you can go direct to Sharjah or RAK at nearly any point in the hold or approach. And if you are holding at Bubin you are overhead Fujairah.
You just have to accept the very faint possibility you may end up in one of these places and you can relax.
Standing by for incoming...
If you are in the hold at Desdi you don't need to commit or divert till you get down to about 5.5 tonnes or so, less if its 12. Practically speaking you don't have to commit to Dubai as you can go direct to Sharjah or RAK at nearly any point in the hold or approach. And if you are holding at Bubin you are overhead Fujairah.
You just have to accept the very faint possibility you may end up in one of these places and you can relax.
Standing by for incoming...
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No Land 3, so you happily land with 4 tons in the Airbus or 4.5 in the 777? You have bigger coconuts than most...why would you even want to think about the faint possibilty of RAK,FUJ and the like? I would feel a lot more relaxed with a little extra smart fuel in my pocket. The last thing anyone wants, especially in the back is a relaxing diversion...
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incoming but friendly....
i agree with NO LAND 3,
as i see it there are 3 options...
1) Carry the extra holding fuel that you need, BASED ON a) a good understanding of the local peak traffic situation(after all DXB is EKs home base,and they should have some idea about what happens there everyday)
b)Mention obscure/concealed notam/AIC.
Realistic extra fuel uplift based on above, is/should not be questioned by any mangement.
Some times a strict fuel uplift policy is actually based on the understanding that the occassional diversion might actually take place....but the overall savings in reduced fuel burn for the entire fleet easily offsets that cost.
2)Hold till you get to your MDF(min diversion fuel) and then push off to AUH or wherever, with the minimum of fuss.
Rest assured that if enough such diversions happen the company bean counters will tweak up the fuel uplift (Which makes me wonder if this event was a "concerted action" to acheive that objective)
3)Do as NO LAND 3 suggests.
i suspect that the only problem with this, is the reluctance to accept the very faint possibility of ending up in SHJ/RAK/FUJ( " GET-HOME-ITIS" is perhaps understandable after a longish flt)
Declaring all kinds of emergencies might be OK as per company SOPs,but i think it just makes for a "My problem is now your/everyones problem" solution.
as i see it there are 3 options...
1) Carry the extra holding fuel that you need, BASED ON a) a good understanding of the local peak traffic situation(after all DXB is EKs home base,and they should have some idea about what happens there everyday)
b)Mention obscure/concealed notam/AIC.
Realistic extra fuel uplift based on above, is/should not be questioned by any mangement.
Some times a strict fuel uplift policy is actually based on the understanding that the occassional diversion might actually take place....but the overall savings in reduced fuel burn for the entire fleet easily offsets that cost.
2)Hold till you get to your MDF(min diversion fuel) and then push off to AUH or wherever, with the minimum of fuss.
Rest assured that if enough such diversions happen the company bean counters will tweak up the fuel uplift (Which makes me wonder if this event was a "concerted action" to acheive that objective)
3)Do as NO LAND 3 suggests.
i suspect that the only problem with this, is the reluctance to accept the very faint possibility of ending up in SHJ/RAK/FUJ( " GET-HOME-ITIS" is perhaps understandable after a longish flt)
Declaring all kinds of emergencies might be OK as per company SOPs,but i think it just makes for a "My problem is now your/everyones problem" solution.
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The guys with the big balls are those who dont take any extra gas, dont commit and go to the ALT . Thats when the company reacts because it cost them big money .
Company policy right now is no extra gas , the capt does not have to commit so off to the Alt.
Also dont trust NCC they will say anything to keep you heading for DXB, talk to SHJ/RAK/ALN your self to make sure they will take you.
Company policy right now is no extra gas , the capt does not have to commit so off to the Alt.
Also dont trust NCC they will say anything to keep you heading for DXB, talk to SHJ/RAK/ALN your self to make sure they will take you.
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I was doing the redeye from Doha to Muscat a couple of days ago and there was a degree of tension going on at AD . Lots of EATs being lengthened and talk of diversions imminent .Is it always like this at dawn or was there an unexpected VVIP ?
Note to self - not a lot of alternates in the Gulf when it is manic - weather or no weather . I know one thing , when there IS weather about , I carry Salalah fuel , it is always gin clear in the 'winter'.
Note to self - not a lot of alternates in the Gulf when it is manic - weather or no weather . I know one thing , when there IS weather about , I carry Salalah fuel , it is always gin clear in the 'winter'.