BlueSkye

I don't know about other ASPs around the world, but I've never worked at an ATC unit that has access to ACARS. Surely this is an airline function, unless this it what you mean GMDS. But trust me, I would give up alcohol and bacon (for an afternoon) to have access to this.

If CPDLC were made available to all and sundry then the picture might change.

GMDS

BlueSky

I am talking about EK FltOps flight watch. They have ACARS and constant ATIS and windows to look outside. After having planned the flight, checked TAF, Notam etc and made our fuel choice, inflight we do follow up on WX, but not every hour on the hour (would cost the company too much on ACARS.....). When the forecast of home base inexpectedly changes, FltOps sees it first and could send out an alert to all incoming. This enables early fuel checks and considerations which would then avoid hectic talk on CompFreq when everyone piles up at Desdi/Bubin. Same goes with SHJ,RAK,AAL,FJR,MCT availability. These airports fill up quick and then pose some problems with replanning, if you have to divert, "req clr to ..., not accepted due to full tarmac." If this is known early, we can replan, or FltOps can even start to redistribute. FltOps do have landlines and hopefully the numbers of mentioned airports!

If we play the game and come home with min fuel, some even below GCAA min req, then at least we need good flight watch and assistance. Otherwise the reseve du patron will come back quite rapidly. I don't think too many of us like to call PAN and explain to the upper m........, why we landed below min res.

That's what I was talking about, not rocket science.

Marooned

Why not PAN? That's what it is there for and no one in management will have a leg to stand on if you use it.

If an EAT is available and wx above limits commit, if not divert. If we divert enough we'll get more fuel. If committed and it is likely that you will land below final reserve due extended holding/vectors: PAN. If you know that you will: Mayday. ICAO recognise this distinction so should the management.

M55.5: I know of at least a couple of incidents of landing below final reserve within the past few years. One at least was an issue because ATC had no knowledge of the low fuel state. If said a/c went around they would have been straight into a Mayday. Prior to this the low quantity EICAS would have indicated less than 4.2 remaining. The 4.2 is an FAA certification limit but it is still an advisory message to take seriously requiring reconfiguring (F20) for landing and implications if you have to G/A (pitch attitude/acceleration) which is the last thing you'll want to do. The PAN allows ATC to give you priority and a chance to give adequate separation to minimise the chance of a G/A.

I am far from pro management but as far as flight planning seem to be concerned, if the weather looks at all dodgy then the OPF always seems to have additional or a remark to consider extra fuel so use it. I agree with GMDS however and have little faith in our flight watch system.

At the end of the day if you are uncomfortable with minimum fuel, take some more even if it does mean off-loading payload. Our choice our decision.

fourgolds

Mr MachPointFive , you are wrong. They have indeed had a landing ( if not landings) below Final Reserve.

On this green issue , I see the Warren Buffets of this world are investing very heavily in trains.
If the Greenies and the very liberal governmets really get into this , then I see a very ominous future for the airline industry. Particularly the short haul , continental operators. I think we will see regulators and goverments be in a position to kill huge parts of the industry.

Craic Ore

Mach .55

I beg to differ. The recent TSRA in DXB was not good. Took over an ER with less than CMR in the tanks. There was another signed out by the same Eng with less than CMR. Why not warn us via company mail to carry fuel when req'd? You betcha - cost.

This current thinking and fuel policy is going to cause some dire situations IMHO.

CO

Flying Spag Monster

Back to the Green issue... its pointless discussing ways an airline can save the planet, the two are just not compatible. Any "Born again Greenie" attitude by an airline has less to do with actually saving the planet and all to do with the European Emissions Trading Scheme; which will see airlines included from 2012. Under the scheme airlines operating in EU airspace will set a maximum emissions limit or pay hefty fees (fines) above this. But they can gain credits to offset the emissions and this can be achieved by..... being Green! Recycling products used inflight, promoting eco friendly work behaviour etc or participating in the world's longest "Green Flight" Now I applaud any effort in the Green direction but to claim it is done out of real environmental concern is just plain green wash. If there was not a business case for it, it would never happen. Call me a sceptic, but it was only about a year ago that the top boss of a well known UAE carrier went on public record stateing that Global Warming was a myth....

Schibulsky

There is actually no real flight watch going on at EK. You have probably never set a foot into the NCC. There are 4! dispatchers at every shift busy calculating 40+ flights each and one DDM. They never get a warning from ATC when there is any pile up, normally they just see on the radar that DESDI or BUBIN getting busy. While you are happily flying towards a foggy DXB the dispatchers are busy calling all altn about the available parking spaces and gathering information about FDP and other operational issues.
Sorry to tell you but you are then just one of the guys flying circles without any info. The considerations are made by dispatch and Opsctrl and you should know about your fuel state at any time of your flight! State your max holding time, listen to the Company freq and when you are at min diversion fuel go to the alternate assigned by flight dispatch. Believe me, the NCC is then REALLY busy, the situation is changing all the time and there is NO TIME to keep 50 flights up to date about it!
You were probably working for a US Airline with about 10 times the number of dispatchers and the legal requirements for flight watch. Welcome to Emirates...where the number of dispatchers stay the same while an additional aircraft gets delivered every month!!
And I am not saying I like the situation...just telling you the facts

And now they have additional work with that BS of a "green flight"...just to get back to the topic

GMDS

Schibulsky

Thanks for the heads up. Just as I fancied. No, I have never seen your place, simply thinking about getting into our COC gives me the creeps, so there's no motivation left to get anywhere close to some other EK facility.
Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming you guys, I could figure out myself how thin support must be, once scratching the surface. Basically I was hoping that one of the responsable m...... would read this and maybe, maybe get the message:
You want a Green Label? Get operations right, and you will actually save a few kilos. The pretentious add in the papers is only smokes and mirrors and makes us the laughing stock in the real professional world.

Berniman

And that is actually the problem... don't get me wrong as well. But it looks like that some pilots with EK are really not interested in a good working relationship with Flight Dispatch or OPS Control. I have seen many pilots in the office trying to understand what we are doing.... asking questions...and I met pilots in recurrent trainings etc doing the same...trying to improve things...

And there are the others... which are always complain... doesnt matter if in ASRs or over the phone or in internet forums... but they are never coming up to the office and talk to us in person... and if we are doing a flight watch especially during fog situation these guys are the first ones who never respond on ACARS... not monitor the frequency... and are not able to work together with company...

Think about it... and now we will see how the "GREEN" flight went?

Cheers

Schibulsky

Berniman is talking about a core problem at EK. There are no efforts to establish a culture of cooperation btw pilots and other departments. They just throw **** at all of us and expect that things will improve...but the pressure they create causes everybody just to cover their ass and stay out of trouble.
So everybody plays the blaming game instead of trying to understand each other. It's the old "divide and rule" principle that used to work since the dark ages!
My former companies sent the pilots during upgrade to the OCC to learn about the "other side". Works well and the resulting mutual understanding makes live easier for all of us.
It also makes a lot of flights "GREEN"
But with the global recession approaching...dont expect things to improve

Lets just respect each other as the professionals we are (or trying to be )

Cheers

Fred Garvin M.P.

Just to add onto this, my former company sent pilots, cabin crew, AND dispatchers to the same CRM training, both initial and recurrent. As well as sending initial captains to network control on an operational visit. Our dispatchers never got updates from ATC, but they always got updates from the pilots on the line either via ACARS or over the radio, and for the most part, where able to relay those updates as appropriate, not always, but sometimes. Communicating is the key to having a decent relationship between crew and dispatchers.