Can EPIs promises be kept?
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Your general psyche is without a doubt the most superfluous of any professional community.
As the title question is posed about EPI, why wouldnt EPI have the right to respond here? (minus the ad). There must be others out there who are in a conundrum about savings and investing atm. All input on the subject is interesting.
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Ferris. You point is valid. My intention was to question posters when typically lambasting individuals or companies without also applying credit where credit is due.
Of course any genuine information is appreciated
Of course any genuine information is appreciated
Thread Starter
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2024: I don't see any immaturity in the posts generated and I don't believe it is a question of ethics just a question of concern.
1. No one has been castigated and as a company offering financial services it is entirely appropriate to question its strategy especially in the light of recent events.
2. No insults and no one has been defamed by any posts.
3. Not really an argument, EPI is not a charity and is primarily making money for itself. I give to charity but choose to do it privately.
4. Yes I challenge managers of the provident fund for past and current diabolical performance of their funds but I have NO choice except to choose to invest where I can and as little as I can. EPI has not done any worse than the provident fund but the questions remain valid about its future.
5. Mailbox and my private/personal company email.
6. Yes EK do not provide squat but please whilst the SIDs and STARs is much appreciated by some you have to admit that again it is not for purely selfless reasons as it also provides a chance for direct marketing.
7. Yes.
8. ....
I do concede that EPI never promised 60% returns but if the basis of this return is on past performance then that is the same as 'my house has gone up 60% in the last few years and it will continue to do so'... it won't, it's going down.
1. No one has been castigated and as a company offering financial services it is entirely appropriate to question its strategy especially in the light of recent events.
2. No insults and no one has been defamed by any posts.
3. Not really an argument, EPI is not a charity and is primarily making money for itself. I give to charity but choose to do it privately.
4. Yes I challenge managers of the provident fund for past and current diabolical performance of their funds but I have NO choice except to choose to invest where I can and as little as I can. EPI has not done any worse than the provident fund but the questions remain valid about its future.
5. Mailbox and my private/personal company email.
6. Yes EK do not provide squat but please whilst the SIDs and STARs is much appreciated by some you have to admit that again it is not for purely selfless reasons as it also provides a chance for direct marketing.
7. Yes.
8. ....
I do concede that EPI never promised 60% returns but if the basis of this return is on past performance then that is the same as 'my house has gone up 60% in the last few years and it will continue to do so'... it won't, it's going down.
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You complain about Free Food and Booze at a function hosted by EPI for both joining and leaving crew. Man get a life!! You should be proud that EPI has gone to the trouble to host SIDS and STARS Events. I don’t see EK lining up to support the Pilot Community through the EPC?
SIDs/STARs is purely and simply a marketing opportunity in a market in which the directors of EPI, as individuals, happen to be intimately and professionally entangled. Marketing is one thing; as you point out it happens. Having spoken to a few of them, the worrying thing is that some of the new pilots seem to end up with the impression that the EPC and EPI are somehow one and the same; an impression which EPI doesn't seem in any hurry to dispel.
The marketing aside, the evenings are always a good chance to catch up with old friends and meet some new people. Yes, the free beer is always enjoyed.
Well said Wiley!. If they make an effort to organise and FINANCE such events, then they deserve their airtime!
I wonder if BC (no disrespect) would run for committee re-election if this idea was adopted.
There was some pretty hard selling at the last night out a few weeks ago. The money over the bar seems to be directly proportional to the amount of new meat/opportunity attending the event.
Down the track a little, it'll be interesting to watch how things pan out at the workplace (EK) if and when the arse drops right out of all the EPI invested world.
As for the investments, I've looked at the numbers on a couple of the previous issues and found them and the terminology somewhat misleading, until the fine print is examined. That and the delays in pay-out, as well as buy-in/cash-in timings lend a different angle to the defined investment period and true percentage returns.
Writing a "30% in three years" message and insinuating this will be your return is a form of market advertising which is not new. Putting this message out to your own work colleagues, though, is something I find quite hard to get my head around.
8. The list goes on!
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Hi Again
Some facts around Sids and Stars and other matters raised.
Our colleagues were leaving UAE, and we missed the chance to properly farewell them so I put this as a bright ideas suggestion in 2004, it was not adopted.
I took the concept to the EPC in 2007, it was fully funded by epi from the beginning, justified as part of the marketing budget
For 10 years in Australia I helped pilots in a voluntary capacity. I stood for election on the EPC committee so I could continue that work and help this great organization with what skills I can offer.
In 2003 we formed epi aiming to set the standard for ethical and professional business conduct whilst exceeding benchmark returns. Our report card shows we formed a DIFC company (epic) and doubled returns on all completed projects.
From the beginning we invested our profits in a world class team and structure aiming to achieve best possible outcome for our collective investment dollar
This market offers great opportunity, the bottom is unpredictable, the epic investment team will selectively buy in and is not tied to any developer.
On a personal note I continue to offer my time at my home to brief pilots on the management model and help them with upgrade, call me when you approach yours, I have been doing this since I became a TRE in 2001.
I have shared this personal information to help those understand the true intent
Some facts around Sids and Stars and other matters raised.
Our colleagues were leaving UAE, and we missed the chance to properly farewell them so I put this as a bright ideas suggestion in 2004, it was not adopted.
I took the concept to the EPC in 2007, it was fully funded by epi from the beginning, justified as part of the marketing budget
For 10 years in Australia I helped pilots in a voluntary capacity. I stood for election on the EPC committee so I could continue that work and help this great organization with what skills I can offer.
In 2003 we formed epi aiming to set the standard for ethical and professional business conduct whilst exceeding benchmark returns. Our report card shows we formed a DIFC company (epic) and doubled returns on all completed projects.
From the beginning we invested our profits in a world class team and structure aiming to achieve best possible outcome for our collective investment dollar
This market offers great opportunity, the bottom is unpredictable, the epic investment team will selectively buy in and is not tied to any developer.
On a personal note I continue to offer my time at my home to brief pilots on the management model and help them with upgrade, call me when you approach yours, I have been doing this since I became a TRE in 2001.
I have shared this personal information to help those understand the true intent
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Can't understand that EPI has the big brass balls to continue looking for new investors when they have not even come through with their first investment project. Many EPI investors are still waiting for their final payout promised to them and still nothing! Just a bit of common sense advise to EPI.....if you want people to part with further cash for future projects, maybe you should at least have the first project completed and dividends paid out in full and prove that joining your ventures is indeed a good choice made. They have given past investors no confidence at all!! 
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What about Boronia and Willy Bay projects? Both projects have gone past their completion, with Boronia running over a year behind (1 yr 3 mths to be exact!!). Not many happy campers out there but still the EPI spin doctors march on. Sad really. I do feel for those still owed money and wouldn't want to be in their shoes.
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EPI/EPC issues
I got my DOS payouts too...
I am equally sympathetic to both the opposing points of view about the pro's and cons of EPI/EPC relationships.
It may appear a little too incestuous ( someone fix my spelling) but generally I think that what EPi do is acceptable. I like free( well sort of ) beer... and can listen to a spiel for a few minutes to pay for it!
I also agree that not everyone is satisfied with the results of some of the other projects, but given the global circumstances perhaps that is not surprising.
The proof will be in how EPi manage the next year or so with the UAE syndicate which is now running... they seem to be sitting back a little until some good deals come up at the right price which seems prudent.
Who knows.... I wanted to buy gold with my provident fund but apparently that 'ancient dinosaur ' of investment is not available under the A or B fund...apart from the fact that in most currencies it is better than 30% up for the year...
nooooooo.... you have to invest in the crap that Watson Wyatt/Fidelity or the other folks in charge tell you is a 'good ' investment... thanks very much.. funds stands at same point it was 12 months ago.... after a years contributions!
So really what is a worse financial option ??? there are lots out there very few seem to be safe at the moment!!!
woodj
I am equally sympathetic to both the opposing points of view about the pro's and cons of EPI/EPC relationships.
It may appear a little too incestuous ( someone fix my spelling) but generally I think that what EPi do is acceptable. I like free( well sort of ) beer... and can listen to a spiel for a few minutes to pay for it!
I also agree that not everyone is satisfied with the results of some of the other projects, but given the global circumstances perhaps that is not surprising.
The proof will be in how EPi manage the next year or so with the UAE syndicate which is now running... they seem to be sitting back a little until some good deals come up at the right price which seems prudent.
Who knows.... I wanted to buy gold with my provident fund but apparently that 'ancient dinosaur ' of investment is not available under the A or B fund...apart from the fact that in most currencies it is better than 30% up for the year...
nooooooo.... you have to invest in the crap that Watson Wyatt/Fidelity or the other folks in charge tell you is a 'good ' investment... thanks very much.. funds stands at same point it was 12 months ago.... after a years contributions!
So really what is a worse financial option ??? there are lots out there very few seem to be safe at the moment!!!
woodj
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Sids/Stars EPC epi epic
Dear Fellow Ppruners
I would like to offer the following background information on Sids and Stars, EPC involvement, epi, and epic..
SIDS and STARS (welcome and Farewell evening for EPC members) and EPC involvement
For many years our fellow EPC members left the UAE without the members getting a chance to have a proper farewell
I have been doing this since I became a TRE over 6 years ago, before epi started.
Please contact me if I can be of further assistance
Thanks
I would like to offer the following background information on Sids and Stars, EPC involvement, epi, and epic..
SIDS and STARS (welcome and Farewell evening for EPC members) and EPC involvement
For many years our fellow EPC members left the UAE without the members getting a chance to have a proper farewell
- Newcomers to EPC arrived and we had little chance to say hello
- In 2004 I suggested the Sids and Stars as a bright idea, unfortunately it was not accepted.
- in 2007 I took the Sids and Stars concept to the EPC, it was fully funded by epi from the beginning, justified as part of the marketing budget
- In the past I spent my free time helping pilots as an office holder with other pilot organizations
- In 2007 I stood for election on the EPC committee to continue the voluntary work.
- Average fund time line 3 years, two completed in 18 months.
- Two are running longer, in accordance with partnership agreement and are projecting returns in excess of benchmark.
- Track record- Formed a DIFC regulated company - epic investments, doubled projected returns on all completed projects, capital raised $100M, +$250M of projects
- Epi do not guarantee results or deliver post dated cheques.
- epic investments fully complies with DFSA regulations
- Employees and shareholders have invested in every fund (total $3M USD) paying the same fees and receiving the same investor rewards
- As Warren Buffet says
- “Occasional outbreaks of those two super-contagious diseases, fear and greed, will forever occur in the investment community. The timing of these epidemics is equally unpredictable, both as to duration and degree. Therefore we never try to anticipate the arrival or departure of either. We simply attempt to be fearful when others are greedy and to be greedy only when others are fearful
- The fund has cash reserves of more than $40M USD, and two new funds have now opened.
- It’s a time to be greedy in the market and start buying now, as the bottom of the property market, Abu Dhabi and Sydney's in particular, is not predictable.
I have been doing this since I became a TRE over 6 years ago, before epi started.
Please contact me if I can be of further assistance
Thanks
Last edited by BCC; 3rd Dec 2008 at 17:53.
Something Gorgeous in the City
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Can I just check a couple of points?
- so why are they asking for more? This isn't to sound dog in the manger - that is respectable capital, and ample to realise the current opportunity you have described. It may well not be to provide funding to repay investors in the previous programme, but there is no document anywhere to evidence any of the cashflows that are being talked about.
Second question - in what jurisdiction is epi regulated? I know it can't be in the UK because the ad doesn't carry any of the required health warnings (the value of your investment may fall and you may not recover the amount invested, etc etc). The US is even more stringent, so I shouldn't think it's there either.
Folk here are right to be cautious - part of the reason the world's markets are in the difficulties we now face is that individuals did not research the products as fully as they should have. Let's have a full disclosure of the status of the entity being proposed, and take it from there.
Sorry - edited to add that I have just spotted the reference to "DFSA" which must be Dubai?
EPI has over 50 million dollars in cash
Second question - in what jurisdiction is epi regulated? I know it can't be in the UK because the ad doesn't carry any of the required health warnings (the value of your investment may fall and you may not recover the amount invested, etc etc). The US is even more stringent, so I shouldn't think it's there either.
Folk here are right to be cautious - part of the reason the world's markets are in the difficulties we now face is that individuals did not research the products as fully as they should have. Let's have a full disclosure of the status of the entity being proposed, and take it from there.
Sorry - edited to add that I have just spotted the reference to "DFSA" which must be Dubai?
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EPI Disclosure
The EPI model for investments in Oz are set up in the B.V.I.
Disclosure, there is none... You forward your cash and the rest is up to luck.
The time frame and returns quoted on their web site is not true, and always sounds very positive!! The syndicate duration (investment period) is far longer than often quoted and the dividends not what has been quoted to date. They just change the returns whenever delays occur.
Speak to previous investors (there are a quite a few) about their first (showcase?) project in WA, Australia. Long long delays and very little disclosure. They had many opportunities to expediate the project prior to the downturn so if they try to tell you about market forces downunder, its a cover up. Good luck to those trying to get their hard earned invested money back and better luck with getting any info out of them especially from the spin doctor team.
Disclosure, there is none... You forward your cash and the rest is up to luck.
The time frame and returns quoted on their web site is not true, and always sounds very positive!! The syndicate duration (investment period) is far longer than often quoted and the dividends not what has been quoted to date. They just change the returns whenever delays occur.
Speak to previous investors (there are a quite a few) about their first (showcase?) project in WA, Australia. Long long delays and very little disclosure. They had many opportunities to expediate the project prior to the downturn so if they try to tell you about market forces downunder, its a cover up. Good luck to those trying to get their hard earned invested money back and better luck with getting any info out of them especially from the spin doctor team.
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C'mon EPI. The market is speaking. Time for transparency.
In light of recent events resulting in some of the most sophisticated investors in the world losing large amounts of cash - the period of getting away with not releasing data is well and truly over.
The longer EPI continues this strategy of opaqueness - the more investors will get concerned.
Open the books, tell the syndicate exactly whats going on and establish credibility in a choppy financial environment...investors have a fundamental RIGHT to know.
By denying them...you are raising serious concerns.
So why deny them?
f
In light of recent events resulting in some of the most sophisticated investors in the world losing large amounts of cash - the period of getting away with not releasing data is well and truly over.
The longer EPI continues this strategy of opaqueness - the more investors will get concerned.
Open the books, tell the syndicate exactly whats going on and establish credibility in a choppy financial environment...investors have a fundamental RIGHT to know.
By denying them...you are raising serious concerns.
So why deny them?
f
Transparency
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EPI stuff
Guys, I like you share concerns about the current world situation but as a previous DOSS investor the returns were better than advertised and they have paid back some of the funds to me as rebates etc.
I chose to roll the money into the Abu Dhabi office syndicate and although I could probably do better at least at the moment sending that money back to OZ, my questions about what they are doing have generally been answered.
such as - the fact that they have not yet leapt into the Abu Dhabi market and are in negotiations on several projects ... I believe that as this is commercially sensitive that is why they are being a little coy.
Look , I could be wrong and this could all end in another made off scheme but I suspect that it is unlikely.
Yes I have heard other earlier investors a little disgruntled with the Ozzi stuff - but really any investigation might have revealed that the WA market was topping out .. and I have made lots from the Perth market and was always cautious about the timing... might get worse before it get better too...
so if you really have concerns go and see Brett or Keith and ASK!
I chose to roll the money into the Abu Dhabi office syndicate and although I could probably do better at least at the moment sending that money back to OZ, my questions about what they are doing have generally been answered.
such as - the fact that they have not yet leapt into the Abu Dhabi market and are in negotiations on several projects ... I believe that as this is commercially sensitive that is why they are being a little coy.
Look , I could be wrong and this could all end in another made off scheme but I suspect that it is unlikely.
Yes I have heard other earlier investors a little disgruntled with the Ozzi stuff - but really any investigation might have revealed that the WA market was topping out .. and I have made lots from the Perth market and was always cautious about the timing... might get worse before it get better too...
so if you really have concerns go and see Brett or Keith and ASK!
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There is a huge conflict of interest when it comes to asking tough questions to at least one of the Principals you have mentioned with the other one being his partner.
Consider a junior pilot having a tough conversation with a senior TRE in a politically charged airline....the airline that lives and breathes the theory of OIC.
Asking the Principals involved will not alleviate the concern. The lessons learned from the past illustrate that the full disclosure of the books and where the funds (the money which BELONGS to the syndicate) are allocated - is the only way to stop what has become a troubling rumour mill when it comes to EPI.
While there is no indication thus far that anything untoward has occurred why not send the investors an audited package of exactly what the situation is.
This is a tough time for everyboby and I suspect that there would be a reasonable understanding from the syndicate should the profitibility of the projects not meet expectations - fair enough, thats the way of investing. BUT when it comes to the exact allocation of specific funds - there should never be anything to hide, EVER.
Ipso facto, a full declaration of funds to the syndicate. Where it has gone, what is left and future plans.
In todays environment there are no excuses....the creation of any will raise increasingly serious concerns.
f.
Consider a junior pilot having a tough conversation with a senior TRE in a politically charged airline....the airline that lives and breathes the theory of OIC.
Asking the Principals involved will not alleviate the concern. The lessons learned from the past illustrate that the full disclosure of the books and where the funds (the money which BELONGS to the syndicate) are allocated - is the only way to stop what has become a troubling rumour mill when it comes to EPI.
While there is no indication thus far that anything untoward has occurred why not send the investors an audited package of exactly what the situation is.
This is a tough time for everyboby and I suspect that there would be a reasonable understanding from the syndicate should the profitibility of the projects not meet expectations - fair enough, thats the way of investing. BUT when it comes to the exact allocation of specific funds - there should never be anything to hide, EVER.
Ipso facto, a full declaration of funds to the syndicate. Where it has gone, what is left and future plans.
In todays environment there are no excuses....the creation of any will raise increasingly serious concerns.
f.
Last edited by fliion; 1st Jan 2009 at 08:41.
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The Facts
Transparency
epi have sort regulation at considerable expense and has formed epic investments a fully regulated licensed investment company in The Dubai International Financial Centre (DIFC). Not a single competitor of ours has opened themselves to regulation and transparency at this level, although some have created an illusion that they have done so. Check the DFSA list for verification. In fact it would be even a reasonable assumption to suggest that competitors of epi may in fact be posting on this thread?
Guarantees and Promises
No promises have ever made about our investments from epi, yet epi always gives a full risk assessment prepared by industry specialists in our information Memorandums to help investors decide. Epi then rate the risk accordingly.
Some competitors make promises of guaranteed returns and post dated cheques. In a regulated environment they would be not permitted to do so. Some are operating ponzi like schemes and investors may potentially lose all their money. The Authorities intend to eradicate these activities.
Reporting
All epi syndicates have a reporting line to investors with 4 public meetings a year, regular newsletters and updates. We have taken on board comments on how to further improve the line of reporting and are doing so.
Track Record and Performance of Syndicates , Investment Advisors
Astute investors take advantage of the real estate cycle. That sometimes means selling early (as in the case of Dubai Office Syndicate 60.66% return) or holding for a better projected return. It is for this reason that some syndicates run longer than projected.
The first epi syndicate Boronia has already returned the majority of capital and is projected to exceed benchmark returns, but is running longer because of the reason stated above. This decision has been made by our investment committee in consultation with the developer.
The epi Group investment committee comprise professionals of the highest caliber and are employed by epi or appointed to the board of epic investments. They include:
· The former head of investment banking for HSBC Middle East
· The current head of private bank of one of Middle east’s largest banks
· 3 Certified Practicing Accountants
· The former founding director of one of Australia’s largest Real Estate companies.
We choose not to publically reveal all information, certainly not in this forum, as some competitors operate unethically in gathering or fishing for information. Some have tried to copy our model but without a professional full time team.
Epi invite you to come to the offices at The Fairmont Dubai and discuss why epi is confident of future success. We have nearly 600 investors and have over USD $100M in funds under management and USD $250M of property under management.
One poster asked why epi was seeking to raise more than 50 million? This money belongs to a fund and not epi. As a professional investment company epi will continually seek to raise capital to strategically invest in a range of investments.
Further to the above comment, epi is currently raising capital for new investments in Australia and Abu Dhabi where superb opportunities exist. The projected return for Abu Dhabi is 15% per annum over three years and the Australian opportunity is 20%. We have secured key opportunities for investors and they will be the first to know.
epi have sort regulation at considerable expense and has formed epic investments a fully regulated licensed investment company in The Dubai International Financial Centre (DIFC). Not a single competitor of ours has opened themselves to regulation and transparency at this level, although some have created an illusion that they have done so. Check the DFSA list for verification. In fact it would be even a reasonable assumption to suggest that competitors of epi may in fact be posting on this thread?
Guarantees and Promises
No promises have ever made about our investments from epi, yet epi always gives a full risk assessment prepared by industry specialists in our information Memorandums to help investors decide. Epi then rate the risk accordingly.
Some competitors make promises of guaranteed returns and post dated cheques. In a regulated environment they would be not permitted to do so. Some are operating ponzi like schemes and investors may potentially lose all their money. The Authorities intend to eradicate these activities.
Reporting
All epi syndicates have a reporting line to investors with 4 public meetings a year, regular newsletters and updates. We have taken on board comments on how to further improve the line of reporting and are doing so.
Track Record and Performance of Syndicates , Investment Advisors
Astute investors take advantage of the real estate cycle. That sometimes means selling early (as in the case of Dubai Office Syndicate 60.66% return) or holding for a better projected return. It is for this reason that some syndicates run longer than projected.
The first epi syndicate Boronia has already returned the majority of capital and is projected to exceed benchmark returns, but is running longer because of the reason stated above. This decision has been made by our investment committee in consultation with the developer.
The epi Group investment committee comprise professionals of the highest caliber and are employed by epi or appointed to the board of epic investments. They include:
· The former head of investment banking for HSBC Middle East
· The current head of private bank of one of Middle east’s largest banks
· 3 Certified Practicing Accountants
· The former founding director of one of Australia’s largest Real Estate companies.
We choose not to publically reveal all information, certainly not in this forum, as some competitors operate unethically in gathering or fishing for information. Some have tried to copy our model but without a professional full time team.
Epi invite you to come to the offices at The Fairmont Dubai and discuss why epi is confident of future success. We have nearly 600 investors and have over USD $100M in funds under management and USD $250M of property under management.
One poster asked why epi was seeking to raise more than 50 million? This money belongs to a fund and not epi. As a professional investment company epi will continually seek to raise capital to strategically invest in a range of investments.
Further to the above comment, epi is currently raising capital for new investments in Australia and Abu Dhabi where superb opportunities exist. The projected return for Abu Dhabi is 15% per annum over three years and the Australian opportunity is 20%. We have secured key opportunities for investors and they will be the first to know.