EK considers airline pilots "Business Leaders" ......
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EK considers airline pilots "Business Leaders" ......
TC, AAR, TCAS and ED
I have lost any respect for you guys already. Basically I should leave it at that, as your “resistance is futile” approach makes you definitely Borg-like, or less. But ED’s publication triggered a new ire, halas, although I have rarely seen paper wandering into the plastic folder over the recline knob as fast as that.
Just show me any business leader in any job who would accept our rest schedules or rest facilities paired with similar responsibilities. – Reading that cr@p during a ULH, not being able to close my eyes in the coffin, but fighting just that when back in the seat, it gives me genuine nausea.
We need seats and adequate rest, desperately, otherwise it is plain unsafe – UNSAFE, and you know it.
Another scam is the 1PIC, 2 FO operation. Listening around the EPC event, I realised that many colleagues have contacted both CP’s or ED, questioning the legal aspects of locking the skipper up in the Hades of the aircraft. It’s painfully obvious that he will never make it to the bridge in case of a top emergency. The Borgs indoctrinated answer to this is eventually none (as usual), but a highly pathetic and rhetoric statement and question:
If you trust them that much, why the h*ll do you limit these guys to 20 knots cross then? Why do you put them through a silly second assessment process for upgrade, after they have already been positively screened and proven themselves to the company for at least three years? - It’s YOU who do not trust them, not us.
Just tell me: If something goes wrong during such a situation, who will face your verdict, who will show up in front of the judge? Is it you, the FO or is it finally the skipper? I think the answer is a no-brainer to everybody!!!! If I have to face any judgement for any c*ck up, I would rather have participated in it than being impotently locked up in the a$$ of the aircraft. I know for sure you will be all over my back just to get your a$$es covered.
Finally, do you honestly believe any other Business Leaders would accept to stand liable for decisions others take and execute? You yourselves would not, for sure!
We need seats close to the cockpit, desperately, otherwise it is plain illegal – ILLEGAL, and you wrote it into the FOM yourselves.
I have lost any respect for you guys already. Basically I should leave it at that, as your “resistance is futile” approach makes you definitely Borg-like, or less. But ED’s publication triggered a new ire, halas, although I have rarely seen paper wandering into the plastic folder over the recline knob as fast as that.
“Business Leaders, and I count airline pilots among them, make countless decisions every day”.
Just show me any business leader in any job who would accept our rest schedules or rest facilities paired with similar responsibilities. – Reading that cr@p during a ULH, not being able to close my eyes in the coffin, but fighting just that when back in the seat, it gives me genuine nausea.
We need seats and adequate rest, desperately, otherwise it is plain unsafe – UNSAFE, and you know it.
Another scam is the 1PIC, 2 FO operation. Listening around the EPC event, I realised that many colleagues have contacted both CP’s or ED, questioning the legal aspects of locking the skipper up in the Hades of the aircraft. It’s painfully obvious that he will never make it to the bridge in case of a top emergency. The Borgs indoctrinated answer to this is eventually none (as usual), but a highly pathetic and rhetoric statement and question:
“We deem any FO capable and trained for such situations. WE trust them, don’t you???”
If you trust them that much, why the h*ll do you limit these guys to 20 knots cross then? Why do you put them through a silly second assessment process for upgrade, after they have already been positively screened and proven themselves to the company for at least three years? - It’s YOU who do not trust them, not us.
Just tell me: If something goes wrong during such a situation, who will face your verdict, who will show up in front of the judge? Is it you, the FO or is it finally the skipper? I think the answer is a no-brainer to everybody!!!! If I have to face any judgement for any c*ck up, I would rather have participated in it than being impotently locked up in the a$$ of the aircraft. I know for sure you will be all over my back just to get your a$$es covered.
Finally, do you honestly believe any other Business Leaders would accept to stand liable for decisions others take and execute? You yourselves would not, for sure!
We need seats close to the cockpit, desperately, otherwise it is plain illegal – ILLEGAL, and you wrote it into the FOM yourselves.
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I agree but...
How many recent EK press releases discuss safety? zero. How many discuss record profits? at least one.
My point is profitability will always be a priority over safety.
If you blame an accident/incident on the manufacturer, it costs millions to fix the problem i.e. triple redundency on B-737 rudders. If you blame the airline, it costs hundreds of thousands to retrain the pilot group. If you blame the Captain, you just sack him and the problem is solved, hence profitability is protected.
Its just a shame that you could be locked up in the tail of the aircraft while two First Officers with only a small amount of time on anything bigger than a CRJ are left to deal with any emergency.
GTI
My point is profitability will always be a priority over safety.
If you blame an accident/incident on the manufacturer, it costs millions to fix the problem i.e. triple redundency on B-737 rudders. If you blame the airline, it costs hundreds of thousands to retrain the pilot group. If you blame the Captain, you just sack him and the problem is solved, hence profitability is protected.
Its just a shame that you could be locked up in the tail of the aircraft while two First Officers with only a small amount of time on anything bigger than a CRJ are left to deal with any emergency.
GTI
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Just a question but how can the Captain be blamed if something goes wrong, if he is complying with his legal requirement for rest in the allocated area of the CRC?
Let us say that for arguement's sake that he aircraft depressurises between Urumqi and Kashi . He physically cannot make it back to the cockpit without the need for supplemental O-two. So what do you do? Blame the guy? He can't be held legally responsible for an incident by following a company mandated requirement for rest. I just don't see how he could be.
On a different tangent here, but those Depress. strategies need to be worded better. I believe an ASR was filed recently because they were "confusing".
Let us say that for arguement's sake that he aircraft depressurises between Urumqi and Kashi . He physically cannot make it back to the cockpit without the need for supplemental O-two. So what do you do? Blame the guy? He can't be held legally responsible for an incident by following a company mandated requirement for rest. I just don't see how he could be.
On a different tangent here, but those Depress. strategies need to be worded better. I believe an ASR was filed recently because they were "confusing".
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Sheikh it Easy
Yes, that would certainly give you something to ponder, and much optimism, as you were sitting in a Chinese Jail cell in Urumqi, waiting for the UAE Pilots Union (UP-U) legal team to spring into action and get you back to your family in Dubai.
The Chinese, along with many other wonderful nations that you fly over on that route, are well known for their compassion when it comes to foreign nationals who break the law in their countries. So, as you indicate, i don't see any great need for concern whilst being stuck down the back in the coffin whilst transiting the highest terrain on earth.
V
The Chinese, along with many other wonderful nations that you fly over on that route, are well known for their compassion when it comes to foreign nationals who break the law in their countries. So, as you indicate, i don't see any great need for concern whilst being stuck down the back in the coffin whilst transiting the highest terrain on earth.
V
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So, they trust the F/Os now?
These %$#@! always have an answer that appropriately suits them.
While most F/Os would likely handle the initial part of any emergency, all the responsibility for the decision making process still rests with the commander; unless, they have changed that, too.
These %$#@! always have an answer that appropriately suits them.
While most F/Os would likely handle the initial part of any emergency, all the responsibility for the decision making process still rests with the commander; unless, they have changed that, too.
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Interesting argument me thinks.
Consensus seems to be we don't trust F/Os.
This in itself is not unreasonable considering the clowns we are lumbered with on occasions (note this is qualified).
Consider the upgrade process and I intentionally avoid using the word training. This company's requirement for captains is the reason for the huge disparity for the pass rate of upgrades when compared to Cathay for example.
Do you Emirates captains really feel comfortable when you walk down the corridor towards briefing and are greeted by some clown you flew with 6 months previously and were appalled with and now they have 4 bars?
Its almost tragic and what's worse some of these guys have even got stars on their shoulders.
What a f#$king joke.
Consensus seems to be we don't trust F/Os.
This in itself is not unreasonable considering the clowns we are lumbered with on occasions (note this is qualified).
Consider the upgrade process and I intentionally avoid using the word training. This company's requirement for captains is the reason for the huge disparity for the pass rate of upgrades when compared to Cathay for example.
Do you Emirates captains really feel comfortable when you walk down the corridor towards briefing and are greeted by some clown you flew with 6 months previously and were appalled with and now they have 4 bars?
Its almost tragic and what's worse some of these guys have even got stars on their shoulders.
What a f#$king joke.
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There are two sides to that story gentlemen...there are some captains i don't trust all that much either...depends on who you are flying with i suppose. Kinda harsh to generalize that all F/O's at EK are walking disasters.
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Vorsicht
I certainly see your point with the chinese or any other foreign country for that matter, holding the commander responsible, but would EK hold the guy responsible? I would like to know what the company's stance would be in this situation after outlining the facts and then determining that the Captain only got back to his seat after the PA was made at 10,0000 ft on approach into Urumqi.
I certainly see your point with the chinese or any other foreign country for that matter, holding the commander responsible, but would EK hold the guy responsible? I would like to know what the company's stance would be in this situation after outlining the facts and then determining that the Captain only got back to his seat after the PA was made at 10,0000 ft on approach into Urumqi.
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I certainly didn't want to start a heated debate about the quality of FOs or Captains. It's about the legal liability and the blaming culture within Emirates. Legally it is written all about aviation regulations and FOMs, that the signing Captain PIC, and ONLY HIM, has the final responsability. This cannot be changed or adapted by any quarterpounder manager at any airline. It's international law. This puts EK's rest policy in a very weak spot. I truly believe that they will turn on any Captain instantly the moment legal implications arise, pretending he should have known and asked for a seat and blah blah blah. They have proven to react so. This puts us skippers in a awkward situation, basically resting in the back solely as a scapegoat for our cost cutting managers who do only one thing: Risk management, and risk that is transferred handily to the skipper. I am not comfortable with this, allthough I have no power to change the situation. That is the reason I am raising the issue, hoping that one day a country we fly over or into will ask some questions. Slim hope, I know, but maybe a incident will force someone to think logically.
As for the FOs, as long as in every bunch of upgrades there are failures, this means that EK deems these pilots NOT SUITABLE, at least at that time, to assume the role of a PIC. - And the last flight before his upgrade they trusted the same FO to assume full authority to replace the skipper who is forced into solitary confinement as far away from the command post as physically possible.
Any further questions?
As for the FOs, as long as in every bunch of upgrades there are failures, this means that EK deems these pilots NOT SUITABLE, at least at that time, to assume the role of a PIC. - And the last flight before his upgrade they trusted the same FO to assume full authority to replace the skipper who is forced into solitary confinement as far away from the command post as physically possible.
Any further questions?
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In such scenarios, eg China, the companys "get out of jail free card" is the that the Captain exhibited very poor judgement, airmanship and decision making, by in this example, taking his rest at a critical and inappropriate phase of the flight. He should have managed his pre-flight rest and taken into account this and that, and, and, blah blah blah etc etc.
This sort of argument can and will be used anytime the company needs.
This sort of argument can and will be used anytime the company needs.
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tbaylx
please note I was careful to qualify my statement and did not lump all FOs together but as GMDS said when we are having failures and delayed upgrades we need to be careful who we leave in control when the guy ultimately and legally responsible is stuck in the arse of the plane
please note I was careful to qualify my statement and did not lump all FOs together but as GMDS said when we are having failures and delayed upgrades we need to be careful who we leave in control when the guy ultimately and legally responsible is stuck in the arse of the plane
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Fair enough there are some in every crowd i guess.
Have to agree that the rest area down at the back with 12 min O2 (on some aircraft) for the captain seems like a silly idea.
Have to agree that the rest area down at the back with 12 min O2 (on some aircraft) for the captain seems like a silly idea.
Its all about statistics , the likelyhood of an emergency is very low. EK are prepared to cash in on this as they do , and if by chance theres a mishap the crew Capt/and or F/o will cop the blame for it. Company free.
F/os are qualified to occupy the left seat so are as responsible as the capt.
F/os are qualified to occupy the left seat so are as responsible as the capt.
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Let us say that for arguement's sake that he aircraft depressurises between Urumqi and Kashi . He physically cannot make it back to the cockpit without the need for supplemental O-two.
Hands up anyone who has made it back to the cockpit after his "rest" even ONCE without having to negotiate his way past a trolley blocking both aisles? I don't even want to imagine what it would be like getting past 300+ panicking Indians (let's tell it like it is - whatever EK route you're on, 95% of the pax will be Indians), if one day I might have to get back to the cockpit after some sort of incident, especially if it is something like a cabin or toilet fire.
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Wiley
You don't even need a lot of imagination ... just a reality check.
Remember the hastily covered up incident some years back over the Himalayas? Two upper class, better payed local heroes going below MSA?
I guess like for so many other rules they presumed this one only applied for expats.
Sarcasm aside, it has been proven to happen, right here at EK. That's why i'm concerned and feel utterly uneasy with this policy.
You don't even need a lot of imagination ... just a reality check.
Remember the hastily covered up incident some years back over the Himalayas? Two upper class, better payed local heroes going below MSA?
I guess like for so many other rules they presumed this one only applied for expats.
Sarcasm aside, it has been proven to happen, right here at EK. That's why i'm concerned and feel utterly uneasy with this policy.
