What happened to the EK FEB roster??

[schismatic]

Don't need to read between the lines. Last year when faced with training captain shortages, training management pointed out to senior management that the life of a training captain would hardly be an incentive given the amount of days off available (and controllable) on the line.

The stated response was that the solution was to make the line pilots roster less desirable. (No guesses who said that!)

The cutting back on line sectors for trainees was in a similar vein. After release to line they will only fly with experienced captains for the next sectors. Hence some of the line training is outsourced to line captains. As a result the designation of LTC as a training post is being removed.

So after requesting many line captains to join training and not getting the required numbers they simply force them do the training anyway and save the money!

Line captains, be aware that some of the rostering adjustments are to cater for training restrictions.

[mini cooper]

We will have to see over the coming months whether the bidding has in fact changed. If the muppets in management think that by restricting something ie days off in a row - from a commuting point of view, they will just p*ss off the pilot workforce even more. When will those dunces / thick heads realise that people work better when they are happy, when they feel valued, when they feel they have the managments support.

As of now I am sorry to say that people are not happy (company making profits but poeple still looking for other jobs), they do not feel valued (pilot rest boeing at rear of aircraft to save a coupe of seats so unable to sit on crew rest if not sleepy). they do not feel trusted (just wait for the call to see the managers because you decided to hand fly the aircraft!!).

EK is a joke at the moment, well to be truthful it has been for quite some time. I keep hoping that one day everything will magically come together - but at the moment that day is too far ahead to even contemplate.

For those of you out there that think EK is the be all and end all - it is not, it will not be for a long time. BEWARE.

[bulfly]

Total Screw Up

Just out of interest - how many of you Airbus guys got 777 trips rostered this month? I got 2 and after calling here and there to complain (miracles do happen - I even managed to speak to a live Pre-Ops person), it was explained to me that .... "actually" it is the Indian goverment's fault, because they would not give EK certain traffic rights! Well, February being my "Top Bid" month, I got zero 340 trips (which I asked for) and my bid for 7 days off got screw up with a senseless trip in between. Still awaiting the reply of the so called CRS Help Team - looks like management is quite happy to pour all the s*t on them!

Hats off to our bidding system !

[silverjetblubird]

Hi Gang. Can any one tell me what is truly going on with EK long haul schedules. Is there someone in management who is intentionally inserting turn around trips into long strings of days off?? How do they think this will affect recruiting? Is anyone from recruiting able to answer these question's on this forum? The rumor over here is, that a handful of guys, who initially were going to sign with EK, backed out at the last minute, due to these schedule minipulations. Go easy, my first post.

[nukem365]

Would be interesting to look at the manual insertion and see how many non brit, auz, kiwi, european N/S American etc did not have any manual insertions. I hope they enjoy there days off whilst the rest of bid groups does the work of the reserve groups.

[Fubaar]

Hence some of the line training is outsourced to line captains

They've been doing that as long as I've been with the company - and rostering DECs with experienced FOs so the FOs can train the ***ing DECs.

[ShockWave]

My guess is that because of fleet changes a lot of sub- continent flights got shoved onto the AB fleet and the only way it could be crewed was by attacking strings of days off. It may not have been a sinister act at all, however I could be wrong.
I have been on 777 reserve and have done nothing so far this month and have just been offered additional leave early march. ? .

Lets not get into another ***ing DEC argument FUBAAR, we are all here doing a locals job until they can train enough to get rid of us. I agree that trainers should be doing the training though. Apart from that it makes perfect sense to match a new pilot with an old hand, I certainly appreciated it as a new F/O and also as a new Captain.

[TangoUniform]

Senor Fubaar,
The US has been doing that for years, mandating that a "new seater" (either seat) not fly with a like inexperienced on type. Accident at the old Denver airport comes to mind. Would you want an experienced 330 EK captain, but very newly minted on the 777, to fly with a like experienced first officer? Sure he may know the route system, but the procedures, systems, capabilities, etc. would be foreign to him, coming from the airbus. Better to pair him with an experienced 777 f.o.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.....still waiting for some word from Senor Ed. Probably will wait and wait and wait and wait. Getting word about this would be like an on time departure for EK. Ain't never going to happen. Resumes/CVs are being dusted off as we speak. Watch the hole in 3-5 year captains hit big time. Bond is paid off, pay around the world better, and in many cases home basings. Can't have ten or more days in a row off? Buh Bye.

[XKV8]

No Open Time

With regards to Post #25 back on pg 2

I can relate for certainty that Open Time has under gone a silent revision. I was off roster for a period of time (health) which saw my morning turn around flights removed. Out of curiousity, and confirmation of what I believed was happening, I looked in Open Time expecting to see my flights posted.

They were only posted one at a time the day prior to each operation. So open time is not being reflected truthfully. Suspicions confirmed!

FYI

[Fubaar]

With respect ShockWave and TangoUniform, there's a not so subtle difference between the admirable idea of flying an experienced FO with a new captain and flying an experienced FO with a newly employed direct entry captain who has little or no experience in long haul/wide body/ETOPS/international operations/third world operations (take your [multiple] pick), especially if said DEC is taking the command slot the FO thought might have been his by now.

There's quite a difference between what you both describe and what all too often happens on the line with experienced FOs and some of EK's recent DECs.

[TangoUniform]

Fubaar,
Better not fly on any US carriers overseas then. Happens everyday. Guy comes off a MD80 or 737 (either as a captain or first officer, depends on seniority) never seen the front end of a wide body, never been overseas (unless you count going over one of the great lakes to Canada) and gets plopped down in the left seat. You bet they will put an experienced f/o with him. Has he been trained? You bet, but probably doesn't know squat about what he his doing.

This is of couse is the extreme, but does happen--often. Works the other way too. Guy has sat in the right seat for DECADES flying ULR. Next thing you know he is doing five sectors a day, in and out of TRWs in a narrow body in the left seat. Has he been trained? You bet, but probably doesn't have a clue on how to manage his new enviournment.

[ShockWave]

Fubaar... In the specifics you now describe I agree that it was not a great experience and a lot of experienced F/Os and Captains were unfairly treated because of it. I was training new DECs just like you describe and they were earning more money than me! However, I am sure you would agree all DECs are not the same and that it is at-least reasonable to expect the guys in the cockpit to help each other out where and when the may need it.

We will probably all end up as DECs for some airline at some stage of our career and hopefully the guy's job you've taken and are now flying with won't be to pissed off.

[145qrh]

Looks like MR ed has spoken forth some more pearls of wisdom.

He has an e-mail on the portal which details changes to CRS. Have read, re-read then read a bit more and still cannot work out what his (almost) random collection of words means.

I think he is telling us that days off in a row are being limited without actually saying it, because people in ther bottom bid groups were complaining.

I can honestly say that for all the gripes that are talked about in EK bottom bid rosters are not. It is an accepted fact of life, take a bit of pain for a bit of gain.

Now it looks like all they are trying to even out the bid groups, bottom less crap, top much less good.

Or have I mis-read our SVP-FO-Capt VD and scar Ed.

[Yossarian]

Just read Ed's mail too! What the ......! Less satisfaction in bottom bids was always balanced out by satisfaction in my top bids. If I understand his coded letter, then we can rely on getting more days off in bottom bid and less in top bid ........ so forget those long strings of days off.

Not going to make for happiness for the poor blokes trying to commute.

[Ramboflyer 1]

As a commuter I was right on to this as well as many calls to the office. Indeed it came from the irrational management way above ED that strings of days off are some how not acceptable. The bull**** about the bottom bidders is rubbish as nobody stays on the bottom forever.
Commuting is to be wiped out and if you dont like it leave was what I was told. Indeed i am planning for a new career. Extremely dissappointed.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Stemming the tide

I'll try to get in this in before the fist-shaking, snarling, I-will-hold-my-breath-til-I-turn-blue posts responding to Ed's email begin.

The message looks completely reasonable.

Bottom bids used to average 9 days off, top bids were 16 and this disparity is perceived as being two high. The CRS program will be altered to target 14 days off as the maximum and no manual intervention will be done in the top two groups.

Prospective employees will see this a non-event I am sure, so over now to the long-standing kindergarten tantrum set for their take.

Standby for infantile vitriol couched in sub-literate English.

[tbaylx]

So they admit to manually inserting trips in days off strings in Feb, but it turned into a mess so the solution from March onwards is to restrict everyone to 14 days off max, the apparent concern being the split in days off between bottom and top bid groups. Basically saying they feel 9 days off average is unsafe on your bottom bids, i think that point is open to some debate.

At the end of the letter is a clear reference to the commuters, saying we know you aren't going to like this but it has to be done. If you were commuting or planning to this just made it alot harder. Guess the non commuters will have better bottom bids in return. I was under the impression most were happy with the status quo, didn't really think it needed to be changed.

[5star]

trimotor,

Expect some AD's to appear in your roster in return for the airbus swap...

[Flying Spag Monster]

"However, concern has been expressed at the vast difference of work between the top and bottom two bid groups"By whom? not the bottom bid groups that's for sure. Annoying when the "safety card" is rolled out for this when it doesn't rate any other time. If 9 days off in a roster was considered a safety compromise then why not use CRS to limit the minimum number of days off to 10? There will be no load re distribution, the work load is increasing faster then the pilot numbers to support it so the bottom group wil still only see 9 days off. This is a response to long strings of days off and the commuters, nothing else. I guess the training department will have to come up with a new initiative, paying to have your top bid month on the line instead of training no longer looks so good.....if it ever did.

[SOPS]

The result is...Top or Bottom Bid..noone is happy..except those who thought this cr@p up......