Silly rest periods in IAH (EK)
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Guys lets get real, if you want to and can sit in a F seat then do it.If its safer and more comfrtable etc then take a seat.I know I do.If the purser or anyone else has a comment,whatever, be the Captain,write a CSR or whatever you feel you have to,but safety and rest are the prime concern.
Over and out
Over and out
Join Date: Jan 2000
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So far at EK its still PIC to decide on the day and tell the purser whats going to happen WRT rest
I've frequently used an empty FC seat to have my meal before returning to the flight deck on JFK flights and never had a problem with the purser. However, that may because I'm a greybeard, who the pursers don't feel ready to confront - the two captains who were given their marching orders were somewhat younger than I am.
The aft crew rest really is a can of worms, isn't it? I remember SP telling me before the first aircraft arrived that you could sit up and read comfortably in the bunks. He had obiously only tried the bunk just inside the rest area door - the one the Purser uses. The pilots' bunks have considerably less head room than it has, and I for one cannot sit up in the pilot's bunk. I don't think anyone could. I tried using the Purser's bunk once (at the 'A' captain's suggestion) - I was unbelievably noisy, far, FAR worse than the pilots' bunks. I don't know how the CC cope.
I pray to God we'll never have a major problem that leaves the captain stuck down the back unable to get back to the cockpit. The recent Qantas incident into Bangkok shows that quite serious things can go wrong.
Imagine if someone had brought that scenario up at a training captains' meeting three weeks ago? He'd have been laughed out of the room. I fear the day might come when a cabin fire - or something none of us have even thought of - might leave the only captain on board trapped in the aft galley, if not until landing, then until it is too late for him to have any meaningful input into how the emergency is to be handled.
I know I'm not the only one to have considered this. I remember one of the captains who's been in the company even longer than I have bringing this very point up on an 'in house' chat site some time ago. On a public website, I won't go into the reaction his comments raised from some (one?) of the other pilots.
Last edited by MTOW; 16th Jan 2008 at 22:45.
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What about an emergency that requires being strapped in to a seat. Do you just lay there with your head aimed at the impact point strapped down with the sleeping belt. I am sure that all the families lawyers will hold TC and Emirates financially responsible for any damages that occur because the Captain was unable to reach the flightdeck (better hope it does not happen in NA). I know I will be!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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People - you are going to have to be firm on this.
If the trip is really so bad - don't do it. Or do one, file an ASR and bid to not do it.
If you are assigned one anyway, go to your AME and say you can't rest for this pattern.
Some who want to do it badly enough will. If there are enough of them, the trip will stay as it is. If not it will change.
Short of an Union (banned in ME I'm told) that's all you can do.
If the trip is really so bad - don't do it. Or do one, file an ASR and bid to not do it.
If you are assigned one anyway, go to your AME and say you can't rest for this pattern.
Some who want to do it badly enough will. If there are enough of them, the trip will stay as it is. If not it will change.
Short of an Union (banned in ME I'm told) that's all you can do.
Join Date: Aug 2006
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March bid package shows all but the first few days of daily operations to be 2 day layovers. Is someone listening after all?
Well blow me..........VBrules is correct PPrune may have Force powers after all. IAH 211 / 5211 trips 7th March to 27 March are a 48 hour layover. but with EK still
Well blow me..........VBrules is correct PPrune may have Force powers after all. IAH 211 / 5211 trips 7th March to 27 March are a 48 hour layover. but with EK still
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Wow, two-day Houstons as an on-going routine? You can hear the howls of anguish and gnashing of teeth from here. Imagine how MUCH MONEY it's costing... I hear they declared two-minutes silence in the Ops Centre when that decision was agonisingly come to.
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The 'pairings' list has been changed from original publication to what is currently showing on the CRS bid package. All Houston layovers now 24 hours; not 48 as previously reported. That will save a lot of manpower!
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I can feel a lot of ASR's being filed for the IAH 24 hour layovers...... Of course the FRMS will do squat about it, being throroughly independent of course 
Ed will say that the SAFE programme recommends that 24 hour layover is better, perhaps i should ask if he wants to join us for a trip to IAH, and see for himself the joys of the CRC(not). Of course if he is REALLY concerned for flight safety, not BS'ing us, then we know that the layovers would be 48 hours minimum. of course they haven't recruited enough new pilots
Strange that eh!
T*sseurs.
SyB
Ed will say that the SAFE programme recommends that 24 hour layover is better, perhaps i should ask if he wants to join us for a trip to IAH, and see for himself the joys of the CRC(not). Of course if he is REALLY concerned for flight safety, not BS'ing us, then we know that the layovers would be 48 hours minimum. of course they haven't recruited enough new pilots
Strange that eh! T*sseurs.
SyB
short flights long nights
But I thought Ed said he was charged to carry out an important mandate, both he and his team...........??????????
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Well and truly rested......??
Guys, it's very little compensation, but just check you are getting your 145 hours off before and 65 hours off after these IAH flights (ie nearly 6 days off prior.....). This is all part of the mandatory rest plan (kept very quiet and somewhat tricky to find) for this ULR pattern. I had previously no concept of these planned rest periods in conjunction with these pairings.
FCI 2007-76 (FTL for ULR flights) tells of the need for rest in accordance with the individual rest strategy plan, but it doesn't spell out how long that rest needs to be.
All the ULR flights have different rest requirements before and after the trip, and these are laid out in the portal; > CRS Bidding > Help > Support > Flight Bid Assist > By Layovers. Click on the destination code and look at the planned rest required.
The things they never tell you..........!!
FCI 2007-76 (FTL for ULR flights) tells of the need for rest in accordance with the individual rest strategy plan, but it doesn't spell out how long that rest needs to be.
All the ULR flights have different rest requirements before and after the trip, and these are laid out in the portal; > CRS Bidding > Help > Support > Flight Bid Assist > By Layovers. Click on the destination code and look at the planned rest required.
The things they never tell you..........!!
Join Date: Jun 2004
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ALL IAH's 24hrs - NOT 48! 145 hours before - partially incorrect - I think
Keep Discovering..... body bags in the flightdeck.
Questioned a safety guy the other day - response....'do you know how much it will cost the company if it goes to 48 hour layover???'. Amazing. If you cannot afford the crew rest costs on a particular pairing....hmmmm.....maybe you shouldn't operate that city pair.
(It will/does cost EK bunch to fly that far with the cost of fuel etc. Imagine it is tough to make a profit there).
Also it is going to be ok....because we are going to take part in a study and wear heart rate monitors. I feel better already!.
Found this out from one of our CRS experts.... The high amount of time (145hrs prior rest etc) is only for the first 5-6 pairings of the month.....every month and you can see similar times prior to the first few ULR New Yorks, Houstons, GRU's, etc. I imagine it is the same for Captain roster building.
So check the rest requirement before the IAH on the 10th or 15th. Should be way less. Prob 72 hours.
The key to the whole thing here is being 'fit to fly' before an ULR Flight. So the way they have set it up - somehow you have to be rested and feeling fit to fly before departing IAH for Dubai on the way home. ....after flying the longest flight of your life the day before. With a super dry cabin for 18 hours, no place to sit, loud bunks aft of the engine cores.
For interest sake, Cathay's HKG-JFK is 17 hours...and they are using their new 777-300ERs on it. They get either 34 or 48 hour layover, and still have the Boeing ULR Flight Deck Crew Rest in the front - with seats/beds etc. Nothing ripped out as per EK rest policy.
FYI 18-30 hours rest is considered the worst layover rest you can have after a ULR. 17 is ok, and so is 31+. Because the flight is so long, cannot use 17. I imagine that is how Cathay came up with 34 and 48.
This is EK though - we can re-write aviation history. 24 hours.... sweet!
Questioned a safety guy the other day - response....'do you know how much it will cost the company if it goes to 48 hour layover???'. Amazing. If you cannot afford the crew rest costs on a particular pairing....hmmmm.....maybe you shouldn't operate that city pair.
(It will/does cost EK bunch to fly that far with the cost of fuel etc. Imagine it is tough to make a profit there).
Also it is going to be ok....because we are going to take part in a study and wear heart rate monitors. I feel better already!.
Found this out from one of our CRS experts.... The high amount of time (145hrs prior rest etc) is only for the first 5-6 pairings of the month.....every month and you can see similar times prior to the first few ULR New Yorks, Houstons, GRU's, etc. I imagine it is the same for Captain roster building.
So check the rest requirement before the IAH on the 10th or 15th. Should be way less. Prob 72 hours.
The key to the whole thing here is being 'fit to fly' before an ULR Flight. So the way they have set it up - somehow you have to be rested and feeling fit to fly before departing IAH for Dubai on the way home. ....after flying the longest flight of your life the day before. With a super dry cabin for 18 hours, no place to sit, loud bunks aft of the engine cores.
For interest sake, Cathay's HKG-JFK is 17 hours...and they are using their new 777-300ERs on it. They get either 34 or 48 hour layover, and still have the Boeing ULR Flight Deck Crew Rest in the front - with seats/beds etc. Nothing ripped out as per EK rest policy.
FYI 18-30 hours rest is considered the worst layover rest you can have after a ULR. 17 is ok, and so is 31+. Because the flight is so long, cannot use 17. I imagine that is how Cathay came up with 34 and 48.
This is EK though - we can re-write aviation history. 24 hours.... sweet!
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Ladies 'n Gents
When I was flyin' military ULR back in the '80s I remember being given a brief on how NASA had put a huge amount o' data out about how all their research indicated the best rest combos were 15 hours and multilples thereof... for example 15, 30, 45 hours.
Naturally this is all overlooked these days in the interests a commerce...
As fer the EK Crew Rest Compartment (CRC) issue... well, when you have folks with more ambition than experience in these decision makin' jobs, you get what we have... it springs from a kind of corporate pathology and narrowness of mind... why consult experience and expertise when we can do it the EK way?
Laugh... don't think I'll ever start!
Happy Contrails folks
k-ot-s
When I was flyin' military ULR back in the '80s I remember being given a brief on how NASA had put a huge amount o' data out about how all their research indicated the best rest combos were 15 hours and multilples thereof... for example 15, 30, 45 hours.
Naturally this is all overlooked these days in the interests a commerce...
As fer the EK Crew Rest Compartment (CRC) issue... well, when you have folks with more ambition than experience in these decision makin' jobs, you get what we have... it springs from a kind of corporate pathology and narrowness of mind... why consult experience and expertise when we can do it the EK way?
Laugh... don't think I'll ever start!
Happy Contrails folks
k-ot-s
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Just been reading this thread and what really depresses me is the comments from pilots like "What goes up" and "Fatbus" on the forst page. How can things ever get any better with morons like that around?
How can any pilot defend this kind of rostering?
How can any pilot defend this kind of rostering?
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If "what goes up" loves these flights so much, and is such a great ULR superpilot, then he should bid for all of them...
Exposed to all this cosmic radiation, his "what goes up" will not go up anymore!!
Sorry "what goes up", impotent idiot, I couldn't resist!
Exposed to all this cosmic radiation, his "what goes up" will not go up anymore!!
Sorry "what goes up", impotent idiot, I couldn't resist!
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IAH Fatigue ASRs
I see the first fatigue ASR was posted on the portal for the very first 24hr IAH. That didn't take long. Well done to the crew for that. It has been referred to the FRMS committee to mill and dither over it for the next four months...the usual load of rubbish about filling out a fatigue survey, being interviewed the company doctor etc.
I also see one of the very first 24hr IAH's had a medical divert to Sweden somewhere? on the way to IAH..resulting in a very long duty day and delaying the departure of the flight the next day due to minimum rest times. And I'm told (third hand of course), that the company was putting pressure on the crew not to delay the departure.
Perhaps someone closer to the facts could enlighten us as to more of the facts?
In the meantime, keep up the ASRs to get rid of this ridiculous pattern.
Strong rumour that San Francisco is starting in a few months. I guess that will be 18 hours across the pole, with 20 hours off as well?
I also see one of the very first 24hr IAH's had a medical divert to Sweden somewhere? on the way to IAH..resulting in a very long duty day and delaying the departure of the flight the next day due to minimum rest times. And I'm told (third hand of course), that the company was putting pressure on the crew not to delay the departure.
Perhaps someone closer to the facts could enlighten us as to more of the facts?
In the meantime, keep up the ASRs to get rid of this ridiculous pattern.
Strong rumour that San Francisco is starting in a few months. I guess that will be 18 hours across the pole, with 20 hours off as well?
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According to ALL fatigue/safety surveys and studies i have encountered or read in 30 years of aviation/space flight, this pattern simply cannot be safe. As professional pilots with concern for safety, our own, for the company and for our customers, EVERY 24h IAH should automatically trigger a ASR. Otherwise forget the "professional".
Food for thought for all the guys who don't submit one.
Food for thought for all the guys who don't submit one.
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ASR
Only one ASR ? It took 18 months and countless ASRs and CSRs to get the Seoul changed to 3 crew. We have to chnage this one with critical mass before a precedent is set. If we don't speak up through all of the limited channels at our disposal we will have only ourselves to blame.
File the ASR and CSR, answer the questionnaire and their questions honestly and maybe, just maybe we have a chance of turning this around.
File the ASR and CSR, answer the questionnaire and their questions honestly and maybe, just maybe we have a chance of turning this around.