Silly rest periods in IAH (EK)
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K
That's interesting - anybody care to send the info to one of those ***** in managment to show them how the real world works! It may show them how, on many levels - fatigue, comfort, rostering, common sense all helps get morale up!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's interesting - anybody care to send the info to one of those ***** in managment to show them how the real world works! It may show them how, on many levels - fatigue, comfort, rostering, common sense all helps get morale up!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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But is you saw the flight attendant grannies at Delta, you might change your mind about their "good deal".
Seriously, they don't have what you guys call factoring. All time on the aircraft is flight time for the month and year. It has taken Delta years to get into the modern jet era of rest. Crew rest used to be taken in the cockpit, then a biz seat, and now finally some real rest facilities. Of course now, they have no first class. Do you guys get an augmented crew when you fly over eight hours? And one other thing, some of my old buddies at Delta say that their layovers in
Dubai are anywhere from 48 to 72 hours. Ya'll fly safe now.
Seriously, they don't have what you guys call factoring. All time on the aircraft is flight time for the month and year. It has taken Delta years to get into the modern jet era of rest. Crew rest used to be taken in the cockpit, then a biz seat, and now finally some real rest facilities. Of course now, they have no first class. Do you guys get an augmented crew when you fly over eight hours? And one other thing, some of my old buddies at Delta say that their layovers in Dubai are anywhere from 48 to 72 hours. Ya'll fly safe now.
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Has Anyone Noticed?
Has anyone noticed that there are, in general, no fatigue related ASR's posted on the latest summary and that specifically, there are no ASR's related to the 24 hour layover in IAH? Has anyone submitted one?
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Interesting ASR trend
I quick review of the ASRs for the last six weekly periods (all 7 day periods) indicates the following number of ASRs reported on the portal;
(starting from early Jan);
63, 62, 89, 87, 69,....and last week...50.
Did we have a really good week, or is my paranoid mind telling me we're not being told the full truth. (the truth is out there, but it would seem not with this airline)
I would assume 7 fatigue ASRs from the IAH flights would bring last week's numbers somewhere up to a realistic, but still very low figure.
So...did anyone on this forum submit a fatigue ASR that hasn't yet been published?
(starting from early Jan);
63, 62, 89, 87, 69,....and last week...50.
Did we have a really good week, or is my paranoid mind telling me we're not being told the full truth. (the truth is out there, but it would seem not with this airline)
I would assume 7 fatigue ASRs from the IAH flights would bring last week's numbers somewhere up to a realistic, but still very low figure.
So...did anyone on this forum submit a fatigue ASR that hasn't yet been published?
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Another Gem from Ed
Latest letter on the portal states a standby day will be rostered the day prior to operating a Houston flight. This standby day will be ADDED to the day off on your roster and the standby is from 0700-1400. In other words the day off before the flight is not a day off as it is standby but the company still regard it as a day off as that is what will be shown on your roster.
Another grab by the company; when will it end???
Another grab by the company; when will it end???
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Edspin
I've just read the letter from the talking horse, and I completely agree with Far Kinarse. (great name by the way)
What a great way of now allocating a standby period, but also including it as one of your limited days off for the month.
So what is...standby, or a day off? I really can't see how they can call it both.
I know in the past, crewing have illegally gone back over rosters and changed a standby day that wasn't used into a day off to make a roster legal.
I can't be arsed getting into the FOM to extract exact definitions to discover the legality or not of Ed's latest spin, but maybe someone who reads that manual at bedtime might be able to help?
And speaking of EdSpin, don't ya just love the phrases "sub-optimal" and "going forward" in his latest letter? He'd make such a good politician, I'd vote him as the first horse to be elected as US president. (actually that's not right is it...there is already an ass in office right now.)
What a great way of now allocating a standby period, but also including it as one of your limited days off for the month.
So what is...standby, or a day off? I really can't see how they can call it both.
I know in the past, crewing have illegally gone back over rosters and changed a standby day that wasn't used into a day off to make a roster legal.
I can't be arsed getting into the FOM to extract exact definitions to discover the legality or not of Ed's latest spin, but maybe someone who reads that manual at bedtime might be able to help?
And speaking of EdSpin, don't ya just love the phrases "sub-optimal" and "going forward" in his latest letter? He'd make such a good politician, I'd vote him as the first horse to be elected as US president. (actually that's not right is it...there is already an ass in office right now.)
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IAH 24hr layover - my experience
Ok gents, here's how it worked on my latest IAH with a 24hr layover. I went - I rested in accordance with the ULR rest plan - I returned - I filed my ASR, as promised in my previous post. My roster then had 2 days off followed by a 10 hour flight to another exotic EK destination. Well, guess what, I called up Crewing and pronounced myself SKF (fatigued) for that subsequent duty. As expected, a call to go and see the nice doctors at the clinic was quickly received, and so off I went to have the fairly pointless chat with the Doc.
But here's the thing - no comeback from the company (as yet) as what I did was entirely legal and from my point of view, respnsible and correct, to avoid flying the next duty whilst still fatigued from the IAH. I am sorry for the guy who got called out to cover for me, but if I were on standby I would do the same for him - and we have to dig in over these unsafe 24hr ULR pairings. If still fatigued after your flight, do NOT operate your next duty. If we do this enough, they'll get the message.............
But here's the thing - no comeback from the company (as yet) as what I did was entirely legal and from my point of view, respnsible and correct, to avoid flying the next duty whilst still fatigued from the IAH. I am sorry for the guy who got called out to cover for me, but if I were on standby I would do the same for him - and we have to dig in over these unsafe 24hr ULR pairings. If still fatigued after your flight, do NOT operate your next duty. If we do this enough, they'll get the message.............
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You miss the point a wee bit uplock...as you rightly point out, the FCI has been out for a while, but the latest Edspin indicates they've been using normal reserve/stby resources since the pattern was introduced, rather than dedicated reserve for that flight as per the required plan.
They've obviously been picked up on it, and now, as they don't have the resources to properly man the dedicated standby, they're using this "standby duty, but a day off if you don't get called out" concept.
And why is every time a person injects a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour into this forum, someone has to come up with a high-and-mighty reposte, rather than taking it as the light-hearted comment it was intended? Has EK destroyed our sense of humour as well as our souls?
They've obviously been picked up on it, and now, as they don't have the resources to properly man the dedicated standby, they're using this "standby duty, but a day off if you don't get called out" concept.
And why is every time a person injects a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour into this forum, someone has to come up with a high-and-mighty reposte, rather than taking it as the light-hearted comment it was intended? Has EK destroyed our sense of humour as well as our souls?
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Ok, heres the way I read the definition of a day off...."Free of Duty with 2 consecutive local nights, to enjoy lesiurely pursuits to benefit mankind and/or for relaxation" and standby duty as "company places restraints on a crew member who would otherwise be off duty".
So your off duty but lesiurely restrained to relax... its not that bad, like the alley scene in cruisin with Al Pachino......Maybe the wearing the blue crew jammies on your standby day would be restraining enough.
happy standby day off
So your off duty but lesiurely restrained to relax... its not that bad, like the alley scene in cruisin with Al Pachino......Maybe the wearing the blue crew jammies on your standby day would be restraining enough.
happy standby day off
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Unfortunately, many airlines (like EK) are pushing and pushing the limits when it comes to work hours and rest (or lack of). It is way too simplistic to assume that just because you have rest available, that rest is actually usefull. To expect a pilot to get much usefull rest during their body clock daytime is ridiculous. CX's answer is always 'it's legal'. Alas it won't be until there is a brown smudge on the ground that these issues will be properly addressed and made public. Airlines know that they are pushing the limits. And they will keep pushing until all those cheese holes line up one day and....
The long term effects of ULTRA long haul have yet to be known. Just talk to anyone in the airlines who has switched from long haul to short haul. They will more than likely tell you that they feel so much more alive. After years of long haul, you just don't realise the toll it has been taking on your body.
What goes up... I am very happy for you that you can sleep for 7 hours. I am also happy that you have lots of empathy for those that can't sleep in the daytime or very well in an aluminium tube. It's nice that us Captains can pick and choose our rest!
Those who challenge management to fly some of these patterns are naive. Management know all too well that some of these patterns are potentially unsafe. In my opinion, this makes them culpable if fatigue is a major factor in any accident/incident. Remember, no matter where in the world you are, it is YOUR licence, reputation and livelihood that is ultimately on the line.
The long term effects of ULTRA long haul have yet to be known. Just talk to anyone in the airlines who has switched from long haul to short haul. They will more than likely tell you that they feel so much more alive. After years of long haul, you just don't realise the toll it has been taking on your body.
What goes up... I am very happy for you that you can sleep for 7 hours. I am also happy that you have lots of empathy for those that can't sleep in the daytime or very well in an aluminium tube. It's nice that us Captains can pick and choose our rest!
Those who challenge management to fly some of these patterns are naive. Management know all too well that some of these patterns are potentially unsafe. In my opinion, this makes them culpable if fatigue is a major factor in any accident/incident. Remember, no matter where in the world you are, it is YOUR licence, reputation and livelihood that is ultimately on the line.
Last edited by rick.shaw; 15th Apr 2008 at 16:39.
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I agree with you PETER N, a day off is a day off, as per definition in FTL.
Now...Lets say that you have 2 ULR flights in one month; they can now use those two days "off/stand by" as part of your maximum 14 therefore reducing your maximum days off to 12.
Yet another shaft...well done Eddy.
Something had to be done to be able to man the ULR operational plan while we wait for Ed's American friends to join the company.
Now...Lets say that you have 2 ULR flights in one month; they can now use those two days "off/stand by" as part of your maximum 14 therefore reducing your maximum days off to 12.
Yet another shaft...well done Eddy.
Something had to be done to be able to man the ULR operational plan while we wait for Ed's American friends to join the company.
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Here is the rundown on ULR firstly the talking horse has said that the IAH layover will be extended to 48 hours this is still illegal!!!! Please follow.
Lets just look at IAH (Houston)
DEP DXB 0905 arrive Houston 1625 Local (16hrs20m) more than 14 hours so it is ULR by definition.
FCI 2007-076 Date 24 sep 2007 eff 01 oct 2007 UFN.
Signed by CAPT ED DAVIDSON (SVP FLEET)
ULR GENERIC OPERATION PLAN REFERS...........
CH1 GENERAL 1.5
A ULR FLIGHT may only be planned as a SINGLE FLIGHT sector unless operational restrictions require an enroute landing on day od operation.
CH3 ROSTERING PROVISIONS CREW-FLIGHT CREW
3.1 The following restrictions are INVIOLABLE with regard to the scheduling of flight crew for this plan....
3.1.1 Prior to undertaking a ULR FLIGHT, all crew members shall be ACCLIMATIZED.
DEFINITION OF ACCLIMATIZED FOM 5.1 REFERS...........
When a crew member has spent 3 CONSECUTIVE LOCAL nights on the ground within a time zone which is 2 hours wide,and is able to take uninterrupted local night sleep. IF a duty period ENDS at a station outside 2 hours local time difference from point of departure the crew is NOW UNNACCLIMATIZED UNTIL 3 LOCAL consecutive nights are spent within the new referenced station time zone band!!!!!!!!!!
DEFINITION OF LOCAL NIGHT FOM 5.12 refers..............
A period 0f 8 hours falling between 2200 and 0800 hours local time..
So to sum up.
This is a ULR FLIGHT...
Prior to a ULR FLIGHT the crew MUST be ACCLIMATIZED....
So now lets just take a look at what EK does and what needs to be done to make this flight legal under the SIGNED AND APPROVED document by MR ED SVP FLEET....
DXB HOUSTON (IAH) DEP 0905L arr IAH 1625 L for example on the 16th APRIL.
SIGN OFF 1655 L APP 22 hours rest in the HOTEL before doing the next ULR FLIGHT UNACCLIMATIZED back to DUBAI!! Totally totally illegal guys.... your arses are not covered at all your dangle berries are dangln in the wind be careful!!
The talking horse has now mentioned that the layover will change soon to 48 hours STILL VERY VERY NAUGHTY AND ILLEGAL GUYS , HERE IS WHY!!!!
Back to example..
16th APRIL Arr IAH and sign off 1655 local
16th APRIL 1st local night 2200 til 0800 L
17th APRIL 2nd local night...
18th APRIL 3rd local night 2200 til 0800L but only need to rest til 0600 L as long as you have 8 hours consecutive!! So you can leave on your ULR FLIGHT on the morning of the 18th MINIMUM 61 hours from your arrival to IAH MINIMUM to be acclimatized and legal.
However the flight does not leave IAH until 1850 LOCAL so the crews MUST be rostered to be off duty 1850 minus 1 1750 LOCAL which leaves us with a grand total of 72hours and 55 mins layover in ULR to fit the EK program and make this ULR FLIGHT LEGAL....
So to go and change an illegal flight from 22 hours to another illegal flight of 48hours is a complete joke and makes a complete mockery of any legal documentation that EK produces!!!!! REMEMBER you need 3 local nights when outside a timezone of 2plus hours to be acclimatized!!!
ED and fleet you must take note and behave accordingly if you want to operate within the bounds of legality and reap the rewards financially from ULR FLIGHTS......
Nuff Said
Lets just look at IAH (Houston)
DEP DXB 0905 arrive Houston 1625 Local (16hrs20m) more than 14 hours so it is ULR by definition.
FCI 2007-076 Date 24 sep 2007 eff 01 oct 2007 UFN.
Signed by CAPT ED DAVIDSON (SVP FLEET)
ULR GENERIC OPERATION PLAN REFERS...........
CH1 GENERAL 1.5
A ULR FLIGHT may only be planned as a SINGLE FLIGHT sector unless operational restrictions require an enroute landing on day od operation.
CH3 ROSTERING PROVISIONS CREW-FLIGHT CREW
3.1 The following restrictions are INVIOLABLE with regard to the scheduling of flight crew for this plan....
3.1.1 Prior to undertaking a ULR FLIGHT, all crew members shall be ACCLIMATIZED.
DEFINITION OF ACCLIMATIZED FOM 5.1 REFERS...........
When a crew member has spent 3 CONSECUTIVE LOCAL nights on the ground within a time zone which is 2 hours wide,and is able to take uninterrupted local night sleep. IF a duty period ENDS at a station outside 2 hours local time difference from point of departure the crew is NOW UNNACCLIMATIZED UNTIL 3 LOCAL consecutive nights are spent within the new referenced station time zone band!!!!!!!!!!
DEFINITION OF LOCAL NIGHT FOM 5.12 refers..............
A period 0f 8 hours falling between 2200 and 0800 hours local time..
So to sum up.
This is a ULR FLIGHT...
Prior to a ULR FLIGHT the crew MUST be ACCLIMATIZED....
So now lets just take a look at what EK does and what needs to be done to make this flight legal under the SIGNED AND APPROVED document by MR ED SVP FLEET....
DXB HOUSTON (IAH) DEP 0905L arr IAH 1625 L for example on the 16th APRIL.
SIGN OFF 1655 L APP 22 hours rest in the HOTEL before doing the next ULR FLIGHT UNACCLIMATIZED back to DUBAI!! Totally totally illegal guys.... your arses are not covered at all your dangle berries are dangln in the wind be careful!!
The talking horse has now mentioned that the layover will change soon to 48 hours STILL VERY VERY NAUGHTY AND ILLEGAL GUYS , HERE IS WHY!!!!
Back to example..
16th APRIL Arr IAH and sign off 1655 local
16th APRIL 1st local night 2200 til 0800 L
17th APRIL 2nd local night...
18th APRIL 3rd local night 2200 til 0800L but only need to rest til 0600 L as long as you have 8 hours consecutive!! So you can leave on your ULR FLIGHT on the morning of the 18th MINIMUM 61 hours from your arrival to IAH MINIMUM to be acclimatized and legal.
However the flight does not leave IAH until 1850 LOCAL so the crews MUST be rostered to be off duty 1850 minus 1 1750 LOCAL which leaves us with a grand total of 72hours and 55 mins layover in ULR to fit the EK program and make this ULR FLIGHT LEGAL....
So to go and change an illegal flight from 22 hours to another illegal flight of 48hours is a complete joke and makes a complete mockery of any legal documentation that EK produces!!!!! REMEMBER you need 3 local nights when outside a timezone of 2plus hours to be acclimatized!!!
ED and fleet you must take note and behave accordingly if you want to operate within the bounds of legality and reap the rewards financially from ULR FLIGHTS......
Nuff Said
Last edited by BIKKERDENNAH; 16th Apr 2008 at 07:15.
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Bikkerdennah,
Very good explaination and analysis. But we are preaching to the choir here, boys. Send this to fleet and Ed. It would be interesting what their official response would be, if any.
Very good explaination and analysis. But we are preaching to the choir here, boys. Send this to fleet and Ed. It would be interesting what their official response would be, if any.
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great post but when they say Flight - they actually mean Pairing (to be acclimatized that is). Even though the book says flight. Be hard to get that in writing or changed though
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I just called the FAA in Houston and spoke to an administrator about the 24 hour rest. He was not aware of it. He told me that he has never heard of this before. I expect a phone call to EK soon. I am leavig for my interview in a couple of days and hopefully i will see you guys in dubai.
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TOO IMPORTANT TO BE FORGOTTEN!!
Ps JUMBO1 sorry matey but straight from the horses mouth. ULR FLIGHT is just that ONE SECTOR period. A pairing is the whole pattern A to B back to A!!
Ps JUMBO1 sorry matey but straight from the horses mouth. ULR FLIGHT is just that ONE SECTOR period. A pairing is the whole pattern A to B back to A!!