Emirates Asia Roadshow - A perspective
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Emirates Asia Roadshow - A perspective
(Someone from EK please repost this into the M-Rats Forum)
Ladies and Gents,
The EK Road-show presentation in HKG on Saturday was an interesting exercise in listening to what was said, understanding what was not being said, and attempting to read between the two based on the facts that were presented whilst remaining “on the rails”.
Perhaps I should start with some factual information. The presenters, CN Steve Westmacott (B777) and Donna (Flt Ops HR) delivered a mixed media presentation lasting a couple of hours.
The DVD that formed a substantial part of the presentation is floating around out there. According to Steve, they’ve “left 500 of them” in Singapore, Taipei and Hong Kong in the last week. A significant number of crew and a few partners attended the presentation.
As of this past week, EK Flight Operations HR has publically stated a target of 550 new joiners for the next year. The aircraft numbers arriving into their fleet are staggering. By 2008, EK will take one new aircraft every two weeks for the foreseeable future. Accordingly, it’s clear that the career prospects are equally as staggering.
There are presently a limited number of places for direct entry commands on the B777 only. Presumably they have sufficient applications in this area to meet their current target for this group and the impression that was given was that this was a small part of the overall requirement. Initial FO entry is based on a joiner with sufficient experience to achieve a command in 3 to 5 years. A limited number of FO entries are available for an accelerated command; i.e. < less than 3 years, however no guarantees. There is however a training bond arrangement to be dealt with by successful recruits
The EK company “projection” of your future involvement with EK and the UAE reflects the general economic projection of the UAE itself; come to EK to live and work in the UAE. Basing beyond DXB has not and is not a feature of the strategic plan and there is no foreseeable change on this position.
According to the presenters, UAE economic growth currently tops the world growth list at 16% year on year. Development in DXB, visually, economically and statistically, bears testimony to this fact and EK are quite “bullish” about this fact. From an aviation perspective, the present and projected rise of the Middle-East and Asian aviation hubs is the EK cause for aggressive business plans and they intend to capitalise on this situation in a very big way.
The other side of the economic picture is a current annual inflation rate that was stated as 10% per annum. This factor is being driven largely by the cost of housing, which goes so far as to be a large driving factor in the manner in which the EK accommodation package is presently established, managed and provided to staff. Accommodation appears to be a “take what you get” arrangement because there are very few choices really available, due to cost, availability and practicality.
The presenters were a little “hair triggered” about the EK total remuneration package. I pondered as to why and surmised that the number of components that have to be considered within the total package results in an unclear picture of the deal that’s on offer; direct remuneration – salary, duty allowances, education, other assistances; indirect remuneration – accommodation free, utilities free, tax free.
The management of the current and future remuneration package at EK is set to account for inflation through planned future adjustments. It also accounts for the burgeoning demand for overseas crew by having a currency protection mechanism built into the package, acknowledging that their crew have currency issues beyond the UAE.
To be fair, the presenters laid out a balanced view of life in DXB and the UAE, outlining the clear “pluses and minuses” which are routinely discussed by ex-patriot crew around the Asia-Pacific.
Comment:
Quite clearly, analysis of the career prospects and the current remuneration offer indicate that no prospective new joiner to a HKG based airline can ignore the offer at EK. No SO or FO position on offer in HKG at present offers anywhere near the potential reward.
The situation for experienced crew is however very different. EK have just spent the last week in the backyards of substantial airlines such Singapore Airlines, Eva Airways, China Airlines, Cathay Pacific Airways and Dragon Air, not to mention numerous smaller carriers. They’ve outlined that the vast majority of future recruitment will be as FOs, but what’s being offered to lever this group into an EK future is however not yet enough to compel experienced crew to commit to such a future.
http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/ExploreOurCareers/FlightDeckCrew/FlightDeck.asp
Ladies and Gents,
The EK Road-show presentation in HKG on Saturday was an interesting exercise in listening to what was said, understanding what was not being said, and attempting to read between the two based on the facts that were presented whilst remaining “on the rails”.
Perhaps I should start with some factual information. The presenters, CN Steve Westmacott (B777) and Donna (Flt Ops HR) delivered a mixed media presentation lasting a couple of hours.
The DVD that formed a substantial part of the presentation is floating around out there. According to Steve, they’ve “left 500 of them” in Singapore, Taipei and Hong Kong in the last week. A significant number of crew and a few partners attended the presentation.
As of this past week, EK Flight Operations HR has publically stated a target of 550 new joiners for the next year. The aircraft numbers arriving into their fleet are staggering. By 2008, EK will take one new aircraft every two weeks for the foreseeable future. Accordingly, it’s clear that the career prospects are equally as staggering.
There are presently a limited number of places for direct entry commands on the B777 only. Presumably they have sufficient applications in this area to meet their current target for this group and the impression that was given was that this was a small part of the overall requirement. Initial FO entry is based on a joiner with sufficient experience to achieve a command in 3 to 5 years. A limited number of FO entries are available for an accelerated command; i.e. < less than 3 years, however no guarantees. There is however a training bond arrangement to be dealt with by successful recruits
The EK company “projection” of your future involvement with EK and the UAE reflects the general economic projection of the UAE itself; come to EK to live and work in the UAE. Basing beyond DXB has not and is not a feature of the strategic plan and there is no foreseeable change on this position.
According to the presenters, UAE economic growth currently tops the world growth list at 16% year on year. Development in DXB, visually, economically and statistically, bears testimony to this fact and EK are quite “bullish” about this fact. From an aviation perspective, the present and projected rise of the Middle-East and Asian aviation hubs is the EK cause for aggressive business plans and they intend to capitalise on this situation in a very big way.
The other side of the economic picture is a current annual inflation rate that was stated as 10% per annum. This factor is being driven largely by the cost of housing, which goes so far as to be a large driving factor in the manner in which the EK accommodation package is presently established, managed and provided to staff. Accommodation appears to be a “take what you get” arrangement because there are very few choices really available, due to cost, availability and practicality.
The presenters were a little “hair triggered” about the EK total remuneration package. I pondered as to why and surmised that the number of components that have to be considered within the total package results in an unclear picture of the deal that’s on offer; direct remuneration – salary, duty allowances, education, other assistances; indirect remuneration – accommodation free, utilities free, tax free.
The management of the current and future remuneration package at EK is set to account for inflation through planned future adjustments. It also accounts for the burgeoning demand for overseas crew by having a currency protection mechanism built into the package, acknowledging that their crew have currency issues beyond the UAE.
To be fair, the presenters laid out a balanced view of life in DXB and the UAE, outlining the clear “pluses and minuses” which are routinely discussed by ex-patriot crew around the Asia-Pacific.
Comment:
Quite clearly, analysis of the career prospects and the current remuneration offer indicate that no prospective new joiner to a HKG based airline can ignore the offer at EK. No SO or FO position on offer in HKG at present offers anywhere near the potential reward.
The situation for experienced crew is however very different. EK have just spent the last week in the backyards of substantial airlines such Singapore Airlines, Eva Airways, China Airlines, Cathay Pacific Airways and Dragon Air, not to mention numerous smaller carriers. They’ve outlined that the vast majority of future recruitment will be as FOs, but what’s being offered to lever this group into an EK future is however not yet enough to compel experienced crew to commit to such a future.
http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/ExploreOurCareers/FlightDeckCrew/FlightDeck.asp
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Halas,
There's nothing special about it. They are now trawling the globe and they're visiting the backyards of a lot of major and minor carriers.
In Asia this week, they made a definate play for the experienced crew, but they are not offering what it will take to lever such crew out of the major carriers here.
Frankly, it doesn't add up. There was a large gap bewteen where they pitched their presentation and what they're offerring in return. Their fishing trip is not going to net much from within exisiting major carriers under the present terms of offer.
Looking for your first job with a decent carrier is however a different situation. No carrier in Asia is offerring a package that competes with the EK offer.
There's nothing special about it. They are now trawling the globe and they're visiting the backyards of a lot of major and minor carriers.
In Asia this week, they made a definate play for the experienced crew, but they are not offering what it will take to lever such crew out of the major carriers here.
Frankly, it doesn't add up. There was a large gap bewteen where they pitched their presentation and what they're offerring in return. Their fishing trip is not going to net much from within exisiting major carriers under the present terms of offer.
Looking for your first job with a decent carrier is however a different situation. No carrier in Asia is offerring a package that competes with the EK offer.
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Looking for your first job with a decent carrier is however a different situation. No carrier in Asia is offerring a package that competes with the EK offer.
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The presentation seems to be halfway fair. Be careful though with inflation. Just as the oh so loathed economy minister of the UAE (Sh. L.) always states: The 10% inflation is excluding housing, because you apparently cannot include housing into local inflation (her original text). When confronted with the pegging of their currency to the falling dollar though, she is just as quick to say that unpegging would not help curb inflation much, as it was mainly driven by local factors, such as housing and rents.
Now go figure.
Fact is today, that even if you include the exchange rate protection (which by the way is capped and thus insufficient) the REAL, NET inflation outpaces any adjustement of your package by EK, even if you are in company accomodation. This means you will have LESS MONEY IN YOUR POCKET every year even considering annual increases and salary adjustements. If the yearly bonus is given (never guaranteed, withheld if you do not behave well....) this just might cover the rising costs, if it surpasses 5 weeks of salary.
To be honest this might not drive you away once you are settled here, or if your situation is bad enough back home. Life is still quite nice around here. It's the trend that is disturbing and the fact that the locals don't care about that trend. If you're looking at a short term career at EK, by all means join. For a mid term career you need to cater well for your family, meaning do not accept mediocre housing etc. For the long term, forget it, that's just my five cents, you'll lose money.
With all that we haven't talked traffic...... Todays paper gave a nice statistic: For 780'000 cars, there are 740 accidents daily!!!! and not the gentle kind. This DEFINITELY what scares me away, it's simply UNCIVILISED.
Now go figure.
Fact is today, that even if you include the exchange rate protection (which by the way is capped and thus insufficient) the REAL, NET inflation outpaces any adjustement of your package by EK, even if you are in company accomodation. This means you will have LESS MONEY IN YOUR POCKET every year even considering annual increases and salary adjustements. If the yearly bonus is given (never guaranteed, withheld if you do not behave well....) this just might cover the rising costs, if it surpasses 5 weeks of salary.
To be honest this might not drive you away once you are settled here, or if your situation is bad enough back home. Life is still quite nice around here. It's the trend that is disturbing and the fact that the locals don't care about that trend. If you're looking at a short term career at EK, by all means join. For a mid term career you need to cater well for your family, meaning do not accept mediocre housing etc. For the long term, forget it, that's just my five cents, you'll lose money.
With all that we haven't talked traffic...... Todays paper gave a nice statistic: For 780'000 cars, there are 740 accidents daily!!!! and not the gentle kind. This DEFINITELY what scares me away, it's simply UNCIVILISED.
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Not enough Accommodation Allowance or Provident Fund
If I had to do it all again I would have chosen Hong Kong. Today I would still favour Hong Kong. Dubai is an appealing move right now if you skip over two of the most vital components to a career, where you live (and how that benefits your retirement nest egg) and the final worth of the provident fund.
The issue for expats here is after 15 years your retirement funds accumulated through the provident fund program will provide no more than 2 years of your final salary including your own 5% contribution. Fortunately for the UAE Nationals they have a reasonable retirement plan with a significant lpercentage of final year salary paid throughout remaining life and indexed when you retire, even after 15 years of service.
Should you choose not to take the company accommodation offering, which can be anything up to an hour in traffic from the beach, then you will find the housing allowance is minimal when compared to actual market rate. This does not then benefit your end of career nest egg as it does in Hong Kong.
A pilot achieves less than 1/2 the allowance of what many comparable managers are given outside the airline. So unlike Hong Kong where an allowance can be used to assist in paying off a place of substance in Dubai you will be faced with very expensive electricity and water bills and have minimal left over to support a hefty mortgage. A side note is that fortunately the UAE Nationals pay a more reasonable rate on utilities.
Some expats have left Dubai to go to Hong Kong to take advantage of the better accommodation allowance and sensibly invest there, on a whole the retirement fund is better as well.
Emirates may have to address these issues to enable the expansion and achieve the standard of recruit required. Interestingly in the last few years they have misread the training demand and have had to bring in very expensive outside training resources whilst allowing their own training Captains to leave the training department in numbers. Someone has not had the big overall picture in mind when looking at what this has cost the company.
They can’t allow the same to happen with the recruitment for line pilots and maintain plans for expansion there is no salary movement or conditions of employment up for review until mid next year. As a consequence this may be the most difficult period yet in Emirates expansion; they are trying very hard to bring in the recruits without realistically addressing the very different economy in Dubai today compared to even 2 years ago. The one hope for Emirates is the road shows are successful otherwise other enticements may have to be brought in earlier.
SIZE]
The issue for expats here is after 15 years your retirement funds accumulated through the provident fund program will provide no more than 2 years of your final salary including your own 5% contribution. Fortunately for the UAE Nationals they have a reasonable retirement plan with a significant lpercentage of final year salary paid throughout remaining life and indexed when you retire, even after 15 years of service.
Should you choose not to take the company accommodation offering, which can be anything up to an hour in traffic from the beach, then you will find the housing allowance is minimal when compared to actual market rate. This does not then benefit your end of career nest egg as it does in Hong Kong.
A pilot achieves less than 1/2 the allowance of what many comparable managers are given outside the airline. So unlike Hong Kong where an allowance can be used to assist in paying off a place of substance in Dubai you will be faced with very expensive electricity and water bills and have minimal left over to support a hefty mortgage. A side note is that fortunately the UAE Nationals pay a more reasonable rate on utilities.
Some expats have left Dubai to go to Hong Kong to take advantage of the better accommodation allowance and sensibly invest there, on a whole the retirement fund is better as well.
Emirates may have to address these issues to enable the expansion and achieve the standard of recruit required. Interestingly in the last few years they have misread the training demand and have had to bring in very expensive outside training resources whilst allowing their own training Captains to leave the training department in numbers. Someone has not had the big overall picture in mind when looking at what this has cost the company.
They can’t allow the same to happen with the recruitment for line pilots and maintain plans for expansion there is no salary movement or conditions of employment up for review until mid next year. As a consequence this may be the most difficult period yet in Emirates expansion; they are trying very hard to bring in the recruits without realistically addressing the very different economy in Dubai today compared to even 2 years ago. The one hope for Emirates is the road shows are successful otherwise other enticements may have to be brought in earlier.
SIZE]
Last edited by Sander; 15th Oct 2007 at 13:48. Reason: paragraphs
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A different perspective:
Slick presentations, DVDs and a polite recruiting team will never prepare you for the move that once made is very hard to reverse.
EK has done everything but enhance a package that has eroded significantly over the past few years. They will have you think that the 'package' has enough in it to save a little extra, invest a little... it won't. The accomodation allowance will not cover renting a home here and you will have to take that supplied by the company or add significantly to it. Education is not covered totally and you will have to add to that when and if you get into the school you want. Allowances down route are just enough to get you fed and watered and off on your next flight.
The presentation doesn't tell you about the countless 'days off' you spend doing medicals, online training, visas, sorting out accomodation issues, getting staff travel to get it right etc etc...
Accomodation, education, health are all prerequisites, mandatory requirements anywhere you move overseas or why would you ever move?
Cut through the spin, the smoke and mirrors intending to bloat the package and focus on the bottom line; the salary and pension, the 'take home/send home' amount excluding the 'package' they try and include above. Factor by the exchange rate of your home country or intended domicile and then see if it is still worth moving away from home.
EK are losing pilots because of this and not getting enough of the ones they want because of the same.
EK are not the only ones out there on the road and it's going to get crowded. EK are heading for a jam...
Slick presentations, DVDs and a polite recruiting team will never prepare you for the move that once made is very hard to reverse.
EK has done everything but enhance a package that has eroded significantly over the past few years. They will have you think that the 'package' has enough in it to save a little extra, invest a little... it won't. The accomodation allowance will not cover renting a home here and you will have to take that supplied by the company or add significantly to it. Education is not covered totally and you will have to add to that when and if you get into the school you want. Allowances down route are just enough to get you fed and watered and off on your next flight.
The presentation doesn't tell you about the countless 'days off' you spend doing medicals, online training, visas, sorting out accomodation issues, getting staff travel to get it right etc etc...
Accomodation, education, health are all prerequisites, mandatory requirements anywhere you move overseas or why would you ever move?
Cut through the spin, the smoke and mirrors intending to bloat the package and focus on the bottom line; the salary and pension, the 'take home/send home' amount excluding the 'package' they try and include above. Factor by the exchange rate of your home country or intended domicile and then see if it is still worth moving away from home.
EK are losing pilots because of this and not getting enough of the ones they want because of the same.
EK are not the only ones out there on the road and it's going to get crowded. EK are heading for a jam...
Last edited by Marooned; 15th Oct 2007 at 14:51.
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Yeah Marooned,
BUT-- My previous company had no education allowance at all, no housing allowance at all, still had days taken up with yearly quals, no staff travel, and paid about half as this mob is paying.
BUT-- My previous company had no education allowance at all, no housing allowance at all, still had days taken up with yearly quals, no staff travel, and paid about half as this mob is paying.
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Trouble is that when people like 'flashy' get to Ek they think it is marvellous and so the company doesn't need to do anything else. For those guys that have been at EK for some time and who know how the package has dwindled, it is a right pain in the arse sitting by somebody who thinks all is rosy when it could be / should be better.
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Ha!! It must be awful to go to work with someone who doesn't bitch and moan for the whole trip! These happy people simply must go. A union would soon sort this lot out!
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Agree with MC
When you have been here for awhile and see that the package is not as good as you thought IE: you can not save what you think you were going to and you realize you have to do something else or the package has to improve, then you say what's next
Show us the money, simple
When you have been here for awhile and see that the package is not as good as you thought IE: you can not save what you think you were going to and you realize you have to do something else or the package has to improve, then you say what's next
Show us the money, simple
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Re: #9
You're joking right?
So all other airlines pay you, and account for your aviation medical as duty time?
Visa, staff travel, sortng out your house, yeah that's what people do on days off.
The presentation doesn't tell you about the countless 'days off' you spend doing medicals, online training, visas, sorting out accomodation issues, getting staff travel to get it right etc etc...
So all other airlines pay you, and account for your aviation medical as duty time?
Visa, staff travel, sortng out your house, yeah that's what people do on days off.
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I love it when I have trips when there is no itching and moaning, because frankly it gets boring after a while. However, when guys sit and tell me how marvellous everything is at EK I feel obliged to point out to them that EK may seem great but the package is not what it used to be, some of the other major companies (who after all are what EK are trying to compare us to ) do get a lot of other benefits that we don't.
While EK is good for some people, others have experienced better things in other companies ie staff travel / pensions etc and there is no harm in aspiring to get a better deal for everyone here at EK rather that just thinking that this is as good as it is going to get!!!
While EK is good for some people, others have experienced better things in other companies ie staff travel / pensions etc and there is no harm in aspiring to get a better deal for everyone here at EK rather that just thinking that this is as good as it is going to get!!!
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+ve rate:
Assuming you work for EK and have been here what, 15 months? then you are just about to find out exactly how much time this can take out of your FREE time. Add to that online training, on your DAYS OFF, and any further training details for the company they ask you to do excluding any block pay when you could just fly and get it anyway, then NO I am not joking... it simply takes the pi**.
As has been previously mentioned, if you come from a crap airline where they took liberties and abused your rights then EK must seem like heaven. BUT if you set your previous companies standard as your datum before long EK will decend to it and it is on its way down.
Assuming you work for EK and have been here what, 15 months? then you are just about to find out exactly how much time this can take out of your FREE time. Add to that online training, on your DAYS OFF, and any further training details for the company they ask you to do excluding any block pay when you could just fly and get it anyway, then NO I am not joking... it simply takes the pi**.
As has been previously mentioned, if you come from a crap airline where they took liberties and abused your rights then EK must seem like heaven. BUT if you set your previous companies standard as your datum before long EK will decend to it and it is on its way down.
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Mini C,
So I am "Trouble"? What the? Listen mate, just because I came from a shti outfit doesnt mean i fall to the ground in worship over everything that goes on at EK and that I am happy for conditions to decline. I am fully aware of market forces. Please advise me which airlines have improved their conditions markedly from "the good ole days". I would suggest that all carriers are striving to cull conditions.
So I am "Trouble"? What the? Listen mate, just because I came from a shti outfit doesnt mean i fall to the ground in worship over everything that goes on at EK and that I am happy for conditions to decline. I am fully aware of market forces. Please advise me which airlines have improved their conditions markedly from "the good ole days". I would suggest that all carriers are striving to cull conditions.
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Marooned.
I'm not saying that all is good at EK. The online recurrent training for free is crap. But the other points that you have mention (lack of pay for your medical, etc) don't support your case. I don't know one airline that pays you for that. In most countries it's you that has to pay the doc for it.
I'm not saying that all is good at EK. The online recurrent training for free is crap. But the other points that you have mention (lack of pay for your medical, etc) don't support your case. I don't know one airline that pays you for that. In most countries it's you that has to pay the doc for it.
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Steve & Donna eh?
Not the same Steve & Donna who had a lovely poo brown Ford Crapi with their names emblazoned on the sunshield. They got together after their respective partners found out they'd been up to no good in back of said Ford Crapi!
Harry
Not the same Steve & Donna who had a lovely poo brown Ford Crapi with their names emblazoned on the sunshield. They got together after their respective partners found out they'd been up to no good in back of said Ford Crapi!
Harry