Emirates: Basings
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Hong Kong
Emirates: Basings
Apologies if this thread has already been aired and done to death!
I understand this was analysed some time ago but dropped due to concern by EK management that they would come under the auspices of local industrial laws and trades union.
Surely however now, with EK ordering ever-increasing aircraft numbers and already having recruitment difficulties (this will only be compounded by the now almost critical aircrew shortage), Emirates would benefit hugely by opening say 3 or 4 overseas crew basings?
For example, setting up base in say London, Jo'burg, Melbourne/Sydney and New York. Almost overnight, highly-qualified crew who previously would not even consider EK would be sorely tempted. This is by no means a slur on Dubai, but I understand from the dissatisfaction aired by many crews, they are not enraptured about living in a desert. I am in Hong Kong and it is also a decreasingly popular place to live.
The main issue would then be who gets the bases? New joiners? Those in order of seniority? DEC's?
Anyhow, just wondering to what degree this is inevitable and whether it would be a better alternative to say the likes of Korean who woke up early to the requirement to base people where they wanted?
I understand this was analysed some time ago but dropped due to concern by EK management that they would come under the auspices of local industrial laws and trades union.
Surely however now, with EK ordering ever-increasing aircraft numbers and already having recruitment difficulties (this will only be compounded by the now almost critical aircrew shortage), Emirates would benefit hugely by opening say 3 or 4 overseas crew basings?
For example, setting up base in say London, Jo'burg, Melbourne/Sydney and New York. Almost overnight, highly-qualified crew who previously would not even consider EK would be sorely tempted. This is by no means a slur on Dubai, but I understand from the dissatisfaction aired by many crews, they are not enraptured about living in a desert. I am in Hong Kong and it is also a decreasingly popular place to live.
The main issue would then be who gets the bases? New joiners? Those in order of seniority? DEC's?
Anyhow, just wondering to what degree this is inevitable and whether it would be a better alternative to say the likes of Korean who woke up early to the requirement to base people where they wanted?
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Bolivia
Long Range Eddy to recent group of pilots
"EK will never do anything to facilitate pilots trying to create a commuting roster and there will never be basings"
..................or words to that effect.
V
"EK will never do anything to facilitate pilots trying to create a commuting roster and there will never be basings"
..................or words to that effect.
V
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Hades.
As has been said in other posts, the situation last year was that only people with 7 years in the company would be eligible, thus ensuring you were properly lobotimised and indoctrinated 
I suspect that any attempt to offer basings to new joiners would cost the company too much, having already admitted that DECs were not a good thing.
5 years ago this was the job to come to. Now, the reputation is sullied, as seen on various threads about 'should I come'. Entry requirements have changed and we still need large numbers every year.
Having said all that, at the moment basings are a definite 'NO', but who knows what the future holds.
I suspect that any attempt to offer basings to new joiners would cost the company too much, having already admitted that DECs were not a good thing.
5 years ago this was the job to come to. Now, the reputation is sullied, as seen on various threads about 'should I come'. Entry requirements have changed and we still need large numbers every year.
Having said all that, at the moment basings are a definite 'NO', but who knows what the future holds.
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From: on the wall
quote:
As has been said in other posts, the situation last year was that only people with 7 years in the company would be eligible
A 7 year captain taking an FO job with local tax implications just to get a basing?
As has been said in other posts, the situation last year was that only people with 7 years in the company would be eligible
A 7 year captain taking an FO job with local tax implications just to get a basing?
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From: In the State of Perpetual Confusion
"EK will never do anything to facilitate pilots trying to create a commuting roster and there will never be basings"
..................or words to that effect.
V
..................or words to that effect.
V
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: dubai
The Truth behind the scene
Unfortunatly there are many pilots leaving emirates. I been with Emirates for about 7 years. At the moment Capt on the A 330- A 340 fleet. I have been in bigger airlines and I never have seen nothing like emirates.. The problem at emirates is the big group of bad apples running the companny. For example. on the Airbus program we have a large number of bad apples, people with no eperience at all and little mafia's group. Most of the time they enjoy harrasing people instead of doing the job in a profesional way..Thanks Lord I will be leaving next mont to a better Flying job. I feel sorry for the rest of the people... In good airlines accross Europe an the US you do not see this.
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From: >FL310
H&D, Ok, I am confused. If it is stated that under no circumstances will there ever be out bases (or words to that affect), then where do you come up with the 7 year deal? Why would anyone in charge say no basings, but then say, you have to be here 7 years in order to be eligible?
Here we go again with the admitting DECs were a huge mistake. Better check the latest seniority listings and see that DECs are still coming. Certainly not in the amount as a year ago, but if it was such an admitted disaster (by whom, by the way, and when was it announced), I would assume that all DEC positions would be shut down.
I just love these, factoids by those i"n the know".
Just asking the questions, no agenda.
Here we go again with the admitting DECs were a huge mistake. Better check the latest seniority listings and see that DECs are still coming. Certainly not in the amount as a year ago, but if it was such an admitted disaster (by whom, by the way, and when was it announced), I would assume that all DEC positions would be shut down.
I just love these, factoids by those i"n the know".
Just asking the questions, no agenda.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Hong Kong
Thanks for the replies.
Surely though money is the only factor.
If Emirates is: a) losing pilots b) cant employ sufficient crews to replace those leaving let alone crew-up for expansion, c) facing a hitherto unknown global shortage of aircrews and d) seeing a more discerning group of aircrew who do not wish to have families or themselves live in Dubai, then something has to give.
Tim Clarke may have made his comments some time ago but things have changed - and drastically. DEC's were the tip of the iceberg.
Parking A380s and 777s against the fence is more expensive than basing pilots and paying them more. Unless EK plans to lease out it's aircraft purchases to other airlines they will need to offer better T&C to thier aircrew and basings would be probably No 1 on the list.
Surely though money is the only factor.
If Emirates is: a) losing pilots b) cant employ sufficient crews to replace those leaving let alone crew-up for expansion, c) facing a hitherto unknown global shortage of aircrews and d) seeing a more discerning group of aircrew who do not wish to have families or themselves live in Dubai, then something has to give.
Tim Clarke may have made his comments some time ago but things have changed - and drastically. DEC's were the tip of the iceberg.
Parking A380s and 777s against the fence is more expensive than basing pilots and paying them more. Unless EK plans to lease out it's aircraft purchases to other airlines they will need to offer better T&C to thier aircrew and basings would be probably No 1 on the list.
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From: Bit nosey aren't you
Amazing the utter crap that gets spoken. I always wonder what the agendas of the authors are. There was the if we whinge DECs will be cancelled, if we whinge we'll stop people coming and get a payrise and then we had the real whingers that probably had valid reasons.
Having spoken to most of the guys that have left, they have almost universally left not because of Ek but because of Dubai. There are a couple of guys that I know that have gone back to Virgin pissed off at EK but most that have left would have stayed if they could have either commuted or based.
Pretty good first post.
I don't think that is even close to the truth. The problem with EK management is that they have expanded so rapidly that a lot of managers have gone on past their level of competence. In addition there is the perception that there seems to be delegation of responsibility from the very top without the authority to fix it.
What are my guesses for the future:
1. The guy at the top will eventually go and then there will be a change in ethos.
2. They will recruit lower experienced guys to fill the seats
3. They might go for a payrise (at last resort) to attract experience (DECs again?).
4. WHen the guy at the top has gone all the options: jumpseats, basings and commuting will be back on the table.
So there you go, my agenda is that I'd like EK to succeed but I wouldn't say no to a payrise and I'd like more people to come so we all have to work less. EK will always do the minimum necessary and will be penny wise and pound foolish but as the jump into the big airline league they'll end up just like all the rest.
Ghost
Having spoken to most of the guys that have left, they have almost universally left not because of Ek but because of Dubai. There are a couple of guys that I know that have gone back to Virgin pissed off at EK but most that have left would have stayed if they could have either commuted or based.
Pretty good first post.
big group of bad apples running the companny
What are my guesses for the future:
1. The guy at the top will eventually go and then there will be a change in ethos.
2. They will recruit lower experienced guys to fill the seats
3. They might go for a payrise (at last resort) to attract experience (DECs again?).
4. WHen the guy at the top has gone all the options: jumpseats, basings and commuting will be back on the table.
So there you go, my agenda is that I'd like EK to succeed but I wouldn't say no to a payrise and I'd like more people to come so we all have to work less. EK will always do the minimum necessary and will be penny wise and pound foolish but as the jump into the big airline league they'll end up just like all the rest.
Ghost
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From: >FL310
I don't think that is even close to the truth. The problem with EK management is that they have expanded so rapidly that a lot of managers have gone on past their level of competence. In addition there is the perception that there seems to be delegation of responsibility from the very top without the authority to fix it.
It's called the "Peter Principle". Many times managers rise to their level of incompetence. They do a good job, getting position raises until they no longer can do their job in an adequate manner. Thus many positions are manned by those who can't do that particular job. EK?
It's called the "Peter Principle". Many times managers rise to their level of incompetence. They do a good job, getting position raises until they no longer can do their job in an adequate manner. Thus many positions are manned by those who can't do that particular job. EK?
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: In the seat
How do you think the dynamics will change if Emirates lists itself on the stock market, TC will then be accountable to many shareholders, good or bad.......Give it time, the market will determine your fate.
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Dubai
"Tim Clark won't be here forever"...........
Mmmmm, what about his predecessor then? My forecast is TC will be here till he pops his clogs. Retire? After running a Company for many years, I can't see him sipping G&T's in Malaga. He'll be here for many years to come yet, so please get real about basings.
As for shortage of pilots; yes there is, but wait till they open up the gates allowing FO's to go Direct onto the A380. There won't be a shortage then...
Only my guess though!
Mmmmm, what about his predecessor then? My forecast is TC will be here till he pops his clogs. Retire? After running a Company for many years, I can't see him sipping G&T's in Malaga. He'll be here for many years to come yet, so please get real about basings.
As for shortage of pilots; yes there is, but wait till they open up the gates allowing FO's to go Direct onto the A380. There won't be a shortage then...
Only my guess though!
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From: Hades.
Tango Uniform
The 'Fleet' took a proposal to senior management last year and part of the deal that was discussed was that you would have to have 7 years in the company. I understand it was even approved by AAR but was ditched by TC or senior level.
I believe the quote about DECs came from recruitment but I stand to be corrected. As you say, hasn't stopped them from coming.
fly nice
Who said anything about having to be an F/O?
h-d
The 'Fleet' took a proposal to senior management last year and part of the deal that was discussed was that you would have to have 7 years in the company. I understand it was even approved by AAR but was ditched by TC or senior level.
I believe the quote about DECs came from recruitment but I stand to be corrected. As you say, hasn't stopped them from coming.
fly nice
Who said anything about having to be an F/O?
h-d
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Australia
Good post Ghostflyer, I agree entirely.
Also... Nearly every guy I have spoken with who has resigned to go elsewhere has said he would love to continue working for Emirates if he could be based in his home country. The main reason for leaving is because they get sick of Dubai, then you add the problems we all face while working for Emirates and it becomes too much for some.
In the end people just want to go home where they hope things will be as they imagine them to be.
Also... Nearly every guy I have spoken with who has resigned to go elsewhere has said he would love to continue working for Emirates if he could be based in his home country. The main reason for leaving is because they get sick of Dubai, then you add the problems we all face while working for Emirates and it becomes too much for some.
In the end people just want to go home where they hope things will be as they imagine them to be.
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Building Site
Not that many leaving..
Although a lot of people think that EK is loosing pilots faster then it can attract them, it's just untrue. Have a look at the senioritylist. About three years ago, we had 1000 pilots, now we are at around 1800. Also, the guys who joined 3 years ago are now around place 900 opn the list, so we lost around 100 'senior' pilots over 3 years, that's 33/year, which is overall less then 3 percent.
The crewing will be a problem in the next few years, but even here are some easy solutions. Like someone mentioned before, the A380 F/O position will attract quite a few guys. Also, I think EK should introduce second officers for the cruise part of our long haul flights. Especially with that new burn-out rule for the augmenting guys... You can get 2nd officers with 2000 hours, and upgrade them when they have 4000hrs. A lot of people would take this offer to secure their place on the seniority list.
One of the other 'issues' for the future will be the upgrade positions on the A380. According to the current rules, A380 F/O's will upgrade on the A380. What about the guys with higher seniority who are flying the A330/340's? Wouldn't it make more sense to upgrade on the A330, and overflow to the A380?
MR8
The crewing will be a problem in the next few years, but even here are some easy solutions. Like someone mentioned before, the A380 F/O position will attract quite a few guys. Also, I think EK should introduce second officers for the cruise part of our long haul flights. Especially with that new burn-out rule for the augmenting guys... You can get 2nd officers with 2000 hours, and upgrade them when they have 4000hrs. A lot of people would take this offer to secure their place on the seniority list.
One of the other 'issues' for the future will be the upgrade positions on the A380. According to the current rules, A380 F/O's will upgrade on the A380. What about the guys with higher seniority who are flying the A330/340's? Wouldn't it make more sense to upgrade on the A330, and overflow to the A380?
MR8
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From: i don't know
Wouldn't it make more sense...
Allthough i have to admit that i am still astonished that concerning recruiting, retaining, promoting and training good candidates EK stubbornly goes the more expensive and arduous way. There must be another reason than the bean counter's shortsightedness and TC's hatred.
I have no explanation.
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Australia
Having left EK very recently, I conveyed much the same sentiments described - ie the job is OK, but DXB is the pits.
At the exit interview, lots of "yes, yes, we agree..." but no way around the fact that the only pilot base will be DXB.
At the exit interview, lots of "yes, yes, we agree..." but no way around the fact that the only pilot base will be DXB.
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: South of North
Well, there is a solution if EK's fear is pilots unionizing at the bases or having to sign foreign contracts. Simply hire pilots for Dubai only but allow pairings to be built from 'outstation bases'.
All pilots would be under a UAE contract, would be paid EXACTLY the same but with a seniority bid could start all blocks from another city.
All pilots would be under a UAE contract, would be paid EXACTLY the same but with a seniority bid could start all blocks from another city.