EK MC miscomm
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As a matter of interest, does anyone have any idea of EK's on time departure rate/percentage at the moment?
What with the general chaos at Dubai at peak times, the highly ambitious block times (no doubt to avoid more hourly pay) and the illusive turn around times, I would find it hard to believe its much above 40% but that's just a guess.
Can anyone enlighten me?
What with the general chaos at Dubai at peak times, the highly ambitious block times (no doubt to avoid more hourly pay) and the illusive turn around times, I would find it hard to believe its much above 40% but that's just a guess.
Can anyone enlighten me?
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There would be some cynics among the EK pilot group who would say this is a clear indication of how important our leaders believe the pilot to be in the grand scheme of things. Everyone else was considered important enough to be informed... but no one even considered the pilot played a large enough role to be needed to be told of the change of plan.
There must have been at least three 'error traps' in the last hour before landing, (for instance, the crew's inbound call to the company reps requesting a bay), any one of which should have alerted those on the ground (and in home base) that the aircraft was still heading for Heathrow. It would make for an interesting CRM exercise in tracing the circumstances of how they came to be missed.
If the captain (or the purser) involved is a Ppruner, I'd just love him to share with us all what he said in that first PA to the pax.The subsequent PAs must have been almost unique as well. Could the shouts of the passengers be heard from the cockpit?
That would be one day I suspect the pilots would be thankful for the locked cockpit door policy!!!! (And I'll bet the cabin crew would have all been wishing they could all be in there with the pilots!!)
There must have been at least three 'error traps' in the last hour before landing, (for instance, the crew's inbound call to the company reps requesting a bay), any one of which should have alerted those on the ground (and in home base) that the aircraft was still heading for Heathrow. It would make for an interesting CRM exercise in tracing the circumstances of how they came to be missed.
If the captain (or the purser) involved is a Ppruner, I'd just love him to share with us all what he said in that first PA to the pax.The subsequent PAs must have been almost unique as well. Could the shouts of the passengers be heard from the cockpit?
That would be one day I suspect the pilots would be thankful for the locked cockpit door policy!!!! (And I'll bet the cabin crew would have all been wishing they could all be in there with the pilots!!)
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EKLAWYER I agree with you. If you are on the tarmac and inform the crew that you want to get off, then surely and legally they cannot force you to get airborne and transport you to somewhere you do not wish to go! Besides all that it is a flight safety issue as well as all the legal angles. In the big picture, I would love to see if anyone claims that they insisted to deplane at original destination LHR and were "FORCED" to go to LGW for the sake of the airlines poor managent of communication and operation. I would say that if the aircraft landed first in LGW then the pax could not force the plane airborne to LHR. But to land at LHR (DEST) and be forced to another airfield, that is beyond belief and the passenger certainly comes waaaaay Doooooooowwwwwwwnn the order of priorities when it comes to operational decisions here.
They should have deplaned at LHR no cleaning ETC and then gone straight to LGW, the aircraft would have been back airborne in 1 hour and well inside the curfew time. Clearly they had the diversion fuel (which they used so no refuelling) and it would have taken less than 30 mins to prepare the flight plan etc and loadsheet, even do a div loadsheet! How long to get the pax and bags off, 4o mins? Airborne in an hour easilly!! Then again we all know that the best decisions are not always made when the people they affect are not consulted first....THE CREW!!
Chronicle of a delay (By the Independent on Sunday News paper)
All times BST...
1.15pm: Emirates flight 005 due to leave Dubai. The captain says that there will be a 20-minute delay
2.20pm: Plane leaves, just over an hour late
9.40pm: Touchdown at Heathrow
10pm: Captain announces that, because of curfew restrictions at Heathrow, the decision had been taken to divert to Gatwick – but that no one had told him
10.45pm: Emirates 006 is due to depart Heathrow, destination Dubai, on the same aircraft. Its passengers are en route to Gatwick by coach
10.50pm: Emirates 005 pushes back from stand at Heathrow for the "short flight to Gatwick"
11pm: Joins a queue of aircraft waiting to take off. The captain announces the wait is likely to be 10 minutes
11.25pm: Still taxiing. "I think we're going by road," said one passenger, shortly before we lined up for take-off, after one hour and 45 minutes on the ground
12.27am: Touch down at Gatwick
12.40am: Four hours late, and at the wrong airport, EK005 finally arrives at a distant stand on pier 6, the furthest gate in the entire airport from passport control
1.15am: The first piece of luggage arrives on the carousel at Gatwick. Twelve hours have elapsed since Emirates 005 was scheduled to depart for the seven-hour flight to Heathrow
2.30am: Emirates 006 departs from Gatwick, nearly four hours behind schedule. Many of the 335 passengers on board will arrive in Dubai to discover they have missed their onward connections
They should have deplaned at LHR no cleaning ETC and then gone straight to LGW, the aircraft would have been back airborne in 1 hour and well inside the curfew time. Clearly they had the diversion fuel (which they used so no refuelling) and it would have taken less than 30 mins to prepare the flight plan etc and loadsheet, even do a div loadsheet! How long to get the pax and bags off, 4o mins? Airborne in an hour easilly!! Then again we all know that the best decisions are not always made when the people they affect are not consulted first....THE CREW!!
Chronicle of a delay (By the Independent on Sunday News paper)
All times BST...
1.15pm: Emirates flight 005 due to leave Dubai. The captain says that there will be a 20-minute delay
2.20pm: Plane leaves, just over an hour late
9.40pm: Touchdown at Heathrow
10pm: Captain announces that, because of curfew restrictions at Heathrow, the decision had been taken to divert to Gatwick – but that no one had told him
10.45pm: Emirates 006 is due to depart Heathrow, destination Dubai, on the same aircraft. Its passengers are en route to Gatwick by coach
10.50pm: Emirates 005 pushes back from stand at Heathrow for the "short flight to Gatwick"
11pm: Joins a queue of aircraft waiting to take off. The captain announces the wait is likely to be 10 minutes
11.25pm: Still taxiing. "I think we're going by road," said one passenger, shortly before we lined up for take-off, after one hour and 45 minutes on the ground
12.27am: Touch down at Gatwick
12.40am: Four hours late, and at the wrong airport, EK005 finally arrives at a distant stand on pier 6, the furthest gate in the entire airport from passport control
1.15am: The first piece of luggage arrives on the carousel at Gatwick. Twelve hours have elapsed since Emirates 005 was scheduled to depart for the seven-hour flight to Heathrow
2.30am: Emirates 006 departs from Gatwick, nearly four hours behind schedule. Many of the 335 passengers on board will arrive in Dubai to discover they have missed their onward connections
Last edited by critical winge; 5th Aug 2007 at 07:17. Reason: Time line added incase news paper link becomes obselete.
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Fart Master why do you think the guy who wrote the article is a w***er? it seems like he got his story pretty much correct. Yes it is the ME but Emirates pretends to be a first world airline so it has to expect scrutiny in western papers not just the Gulf News.
Interesting to know what happens to the person who made this cock up because we all know what would happen to a pilot making an expensive mistake like this, but then again i think there will be so many middle managers running round blaming each other that what in fact will actually happen is ..... nothing!
Interesting to know what happens to the person who made this cock up because we all know what would happen to a pilot making an expensive mistake like this, but then again i think there will be so many middle managers running round blaming each other that what in fact will actually happen is ..... nothing!
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Although the crew seems to have nothing to do with the initial error of landing at LHR while everybody was waiting for them in LGW, I do have serious questions with their lack of resistance when SMNC told them they had to fly to LGW with the pax.
Also, when exactly did they find out? They obviously didn't call the Ground Handling guys in Heathrow on beforehand..
Then again, what do you expect? The Captain was a DEC, in the company for less then 6 months, accompanied by 2 FO's, both here for a year or less.. These poor people obviously aren't familiar with the sometimes pushy decisionmaking in Dubai. They didn't stand up against a decision made by some people in an office in Dubai who are just moving around some numbers.. '' EK005 to LGW instead of LHR, busses on the way...''. Don't bother sending a little ACARS or SATCOM call, why do we have all that technology in the first place?
I can only conclude that the crew involved showed a lack of Captaincy and involvement in the decisions that have been made. A decent experienced crew would have told off SMNC about THEIR error not to inform the crew and offloaded the pax in LHR.
But then again, that's probably the price we have to pay for our rapid expansion. Although it wasn't the most clever decisions that have been made, and a lot of money is being lost because of it, it was all safe...
MR8
Also, when exactly did they find out? They obviously didn't call the Ground Handling guys in Heathrow on beforehand..
Then again, what do you expect? The Captain was a DEC, in the company for less then 6 months, accompanied by 2 FO's, both here for a year or less.. These poor people obviously aren't familiar with the sometimes pushy decisionmaking in Dubai. They didn't stand up against a decision made by some people in an office in Dubai who are just moving around some numbers.. '' EK005 to LGW instead of LHR, busses on the way...''. Don't bother sending a little ACARS or SATCOM call, why do we have all that technology in the first place?
I can only conclude that the crew involved showed a lack of Captaincy and involvement in the decisions that have been made. A decent experienced crew would have told off SMNC about THEIR error not to inform the crew and offloaded the pax in LHR.
But then again, that's probably the price we have to pay for our rapid expansion. Although it wasn't the most clever decisions that have been made, and a lot of money is being lost because of it, it was all safe...
MR8
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lack of resistance?...
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Fractional, isn't that the easy way? Is that why you became a pilot/captain? If that's the way you want to fly, not using your brain and let people in an office far away take your decisions, can you still be proud of what you are doing?
Personally I feel already too restricted in what I am allowed to do. The SOP's at EK are often not a guideline anymore, but a strict rule. For example, the fully established at 1500ft thing is completely ridiculous. But that's another discussion...
Anyway, in my opinion and with the information I have, the crew showed lack of decisionmaking. Don't forget you are the captain on board and SNMC is only there for guidance.
Consider the point eklawyer made: if someone sued for unlawfull imprisonment, do you think the guy behind his desk will face proscecution?
It's all so easy just following their advice, but not always the right thing to do...
MR8
Personally I feel already too restricted in what I am allowed to do. The SOP's at EK are often not a guideline anymore, but a strict rule. For example, the fully established at 1500ft thing is completely ridiculous. But that's another discussion...
Anyway, in my opinion and with the information I have, the crew showed lack of decisionmaking. Don't forget you are the captain on board and SNMC is only there for guidance.
Consider the point eklawyer made: if someone sued for unlawfull imprisonment, do you think the guy behind his desk will face proscecution?
It's all so easy just following their advice, but not always the right thing to do...
MR8
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Disconnected, yes the EK on time performance is approaching 100%. That is, leaves the same day as scheduled.
MR8, curious on what grounds would you have refused to take the a/c and pax to LGW? Was it safe? Probably. Was the crew fatigued? Were you out of FTDT? Or would your answer be, I don't like the decision, therefore, I will reject it? See your point about this being a complete F***up, but you might have a very hard time 'splaining why you left the airplane at LHR with full pax, no ground staff and headed off to the hotel. If at any point SMNC was requiring you to violate stated policy, then set the parking brake, but otherwise.....good luck.
MR8, curious on what grounds would you have refused to take the a/c and pax to LGW? Was it safe? Probably. Was the crew fatigued? Were you out of FTDT? Or would your answer be, I don't like the decision, therefore, I will reject it? See your point about this being a complete F***up, but you might have a very hard time 'splaining why you left the airplane at LHR with full pax, no ground staff and headed off to the hotel. If at any point SMNC was requiring you to violate stated policy, then set the parking brake, but otherwise.....good luck.
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SNMC must have carried some checks by escalating the problem before taking such an absurd decision. Absurd, because they left it too late. This is why they are there just as BBs "watching you".
Unless people have their backs well armoured (???) and I'm not saying there aren't, usually the axe comes down pretty evenly. At least, I would hope so. Not taking such a decision, again although very late, it would have caused much more damage generally, even if you consider the financial penalties EK has to pay according with the new EU rules.
It was the best of the worst scenarios they had on their desks. It doesn't happen everyday. At least, I want to believe that.
Generally speaking and here I'm addressing professional outfits, Flight Followers/Dispatchers/Watchers/Controllers (you name it) are a great help to airborne crews and vice-versa, and this should be encouraged to grow. Both sides will definitely gain.
For those of you who don't think so, just ask your firendly supervisor for a group familiarisation visit during "refreshers" to your ops guys and I'm sure perceptions will change for the better. Ops guys should also do some flying along with crews for a similar learning curve.
Unless people have their backs well armoured (???) and I'm not saying there aren't, usually the axe comes down pretty evenly. At least, I would hope so. Not taking such a decision, again although very late, it would have caused much more damage generally, even if you consider the financial penalties EK has to pay according with the new EU rules.
It was the best of the worst scenarios they had on their desks. It doesn't happen everyday. At least, I want to believe that.
Generally speaking and here I'm addressing professional outfits, Flight Followers/Dispatchers/Watchers/Controllers (you name it) are a great help to airborne crews and vice-versa, and this should be encouraged to grow. Both sides will definitely gain.
For those of you who don't think so, just ask your firendly supervisor for a group familiarisation visit during "refreshers" to your ops guys and I'm sure perceptions will change for the better. Ops guys should also do some flying along with crews for a similar learning curve.
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fractional, good post..
TU, I agree that you would have a hard time explaining why I won't take the aircraft to LGW, but not the passengers. If you land safely in LHR, I cannot see why anyone would take off from the destination with the pax on board.
Also, there must have been ground staff at LHR, how else could they have turn around the aircraft? Did they have enough fuel for the additional flight? Didn't they require a loadsheet and a new flightplan? They must have had support.
Anyway, I don't have enough information about the real circumstances that night to make a correct judgement, I just find it very strange.
MR8
TU, I agree that you would have a hard time explaining why I won't take the aircraft to LGW, but not the passengers. If you land safely in LHR, I cannot see why anyone would take off from the destination with the pax on board.
Also, there must have been ground staff at LHR, how else could they have turn around the aircraft? Did they have enough fuel for the additional flight? Didn't they require a loadsheet and a new flightplan? They must have had support.
Anyway, I don't have enough information about the real circumstances that night to make a correct judgement, I just find it very strange.
MR8
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I'm sorry but it is fairly illustrative of this company's attitude towards flight crew that they would be the last one's notified of something like this. Sure it was a screw up but let's face it, of the people that needed to know about this decision, the captain was the last guy on the list.
As far as support from dispatch, SMNC etc., my experience has been that they are more often a hindrance than a help. The thing that worries me is that we have a lot of DEC's coming from places where they could count on their dispatch for good advice and they probably expect the same level of support here. EK Dispatch is critically undermanned (now where have we heard that before) and just don't have the time to devote proper care to the production of flight plans etc.. They are operating at 120% capacity on a good day. Look out when things get difficult.
The fact that once the airplane was on the ground, they were unable to reassess and adjust their plans to take the passengers off the airplane and turn it around for LGW is a great example of tunnel vision. They had a plan and they were going to stick to it. We specifically train our pilots to reassess, readjust and mitigate. A little of that might have gone a long way.
As far as support from dispatch, SMNC etc., my experience has been that they are more often a hindrance than a help. The thing that worries me is that we have a lot of DEC's coming from places where they could count on their dispatch for good advice and they probably expect the same level of support here. EK Dispatch is critically undermanned (now where have we heard that before) and just don't have the time to devote proper care to the production of flight plans etc.. They are operating at 120% capacity on a good day. Look out when things get difficult.
The fact that once the airplane was on the ground, they were unable to reassess and adjust their plans to take the passengers off the airplane and turn it around for LGW is a great example of tunnel vision. They had a plan and they were going to stick to it. We specifically train our pilots to reassess, readjust and mitigate. A little of that might have gone a long way.
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As far as support from dispatch, SMNC etc., my experience has been that they are more often a hindrance than a help.
EK Dispatch is critically undermanned (now where have we heard that before) and just don't have the time to devote proper care to the production of flight plans etc.. They are operating at 120% capacity on a good day.
EK Dispatch is critically undermanned (now where have we heard that before) and just don't have the time to devote proper care to the production of flight plans etc.. They are operating at 120% capacity on a good day.
I'm sure many of you have addressed this issue (and others) internally. I find it appalling the levels of training, retraining and consequently the licensing of the ground staff in this part of the world. Only the UAE requires licensed Dispatchers and some of these licenses are just "given away". I believe the screening and the issuance of llicenses is harder at the school levels (obviously, I'm referring to the DXB school only).
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For Gods sake guys get real!
I'm completely dumbfounded by the actions that were taken and as much as SMNC screwed up, a certain amount of ownership has to be taken by the Captain. We're not just given that extra fourth bar because we're safe operators. We have it because in theory at least, we have certain leadership and decision making qualities that set us apart from those unable to take on that responsibility. All Captains have authority but shouldn't we also have the leadership skills to complement that? How could anyone NOT think it unreasonable to de-plane the PAX and bags in LHR and ferry the aircraft to LGW. It's called damage limitation and ends up with only half the passengers pissed off. I for one would have strongly recommended that decision and would have needed a very strong argument from Ops to avoid implementing it.
Is the Culture here really so bad that we live in fear of not following SMNC advice, regardless? Having received 3 different FTL's answers through ACARS from them in the past relating to a single question, i'm only too aware of their limitations regarding operational issues and mistakes that they too make. A process that took over 2 hours and was only finally resovled because I was prepared to keep questioning their decision. As Captains, we have to take more ownership in situations like this and anyone who answers with a " why should we expose ouselves, just follow SMNC's advise" should, in my opinion, not be worther of taking a left seat position. Stick with blindly following the rules from the other seat if that's the way you feel. Which brings me onto the last point.
So what if that guy was a DEC. More fool Emirates then for taking these guys on. Perhaps this incident, like many others that have preceeded it involving DEC's, has merely highlighted the fundermental flaw with this policy. As someone mentioned earlier, the very nature of our rapid expansion makes us vunerable to unique issues not faced by the more established carriers. Airlines that have Captains with probably 7 or 8 years minimum F/O experience before upgrading. Time spent learning not only the culture within the Company but watching how the guys in the left seat deal with problems. Problems that aren't always covered in the FOM! Whilst we have most Captains here with only 3-4 years, it's more than enough time to understand the Company culture and 'how things work'. Particularly in this part of the World with the various National cultures we deal with on a day to day basis. How much of this exposure do the DEC's receive by jumping straight into the left seat here? Absolutely none! Not only that, but what examples are they now giving to the guys in the right seat. Feedback from many F/O's on the line is rarely positive when it comes down to the topic of DEC's. What a pitiful situation to be in when First Officers should be learning from the Skippers instead of holding their hands through ETOPS, HF, new destinations and guiding them on Company policies and procedures.
For those of us with any time here, we're more than aware of how things rapidly go downhill the minute operations goes off the rails. Emirates is much like a Ferrari. It's a wonderful sight to behold when it's working but the minute something goes wrong, it f**ks up big time and it costs a shed load a money to put right. You can't run a Ferrari on a shoestring and constant costcutting. It needs constant care and investment and well trained and motivated staff to look after it.
Isn't the saying 'short term pain for long term gain'? The DEC policy is a good example of this. In reverse!
BYMONEK
P.s Fractional, what 'refresher' might that be then?
I'm completely dumbfounded by the actions that were taken and as much as SMNC screwed up, a certain amount of ownership has to be taken by the Captain. We're not just given that extra fourth bar because we're safe operators. We have it because in theory at least, we have certain leadership and decision making qualities that set us apart from those unable to take on that responsibility. All Captains have authority but shouldn't we also have the leadership skills to complement that? How could anyone NOT think it unreasonable to de-plane the PAX and bags in LHR and ferry the aircraft to LGW. It's called damage limitation and ends up with only half the passengers pissed off. I for one would have strongly recommended that decision and would have needed a very strong argument from Ops to avoid implementing it.
Is the Culture here really so bad that we live in fear of not following SMNC advice, regardless? Having received 3 different FTL's answers through ACARS from them in the past relating to a single question, i'm only too aware of their limitations regarding operational issues and mistakes that they too make. A process that took over 2 hours and was only finally resovled because I was prepared to keep questioning their decision. As Captains, we have to take more ownership in situations like this and anyone who answers with a " why should we expose ouselves, just follow SMNC's advise" should, in my opinion, not be worther of taking a left seat position. Stick with blindly following the rules from the other seat if that's the way you feel. Which brings me onto the last point.
So what if that guy was a DEC. More fool Emirates then for taking these guys on. Perhaps this incident, like many others that have preceeded it involving DEC's, has merely highlighted the fundermental flaw with this policy. As someone mentioned earlier, the very nature of our rapid expansion makes us vunerable to unique issues not faced by the more established carriers. Airlines that have Captains with probably 7 or 8 years minimum F/O experience before upgrading. Time spent learning not only the culture within the Company but watching how the guys in the left seat deal with problems. Problems that aren't always covered in the FOM! Whilst we have most Captains here with only 3-4 years, it's more than enough time to understand the Company culture and 'how things work'. Particularly in this part of the World with the various National cultures we deal with on a day to day basis. How much of this exposure do the DEC's receive by jumping straight into the left seat here? Absolutely none! Not only that, but what examples are they now giving to the guys in the right seat. Feedback from many F/O's on the line is rarely positive when it comes down to the topic of DEC's. What a pitiful situation to be in when First Officers should be learning from the Skippers instead of holding their hands through ETOPS, HF, new destinations and guiding them on Company policies and procedures.
For those of us with any time here, we're more than aware of how things rapidly go downhill the minute operations goes off the rails. Emirates is much like a Ferrari. It's a wonderful sight to behold when it's working but the minute something goes wrong, it f**ks up big time and it costs a shed load a money to put right. You can't run a Ferrari on a shoestring and constant costcutting. It needs constant care and investment and well trained and motivated staff to look after it.
Isn't the saying 'short term pain for long term gain'? The DEC policy is a good example of this. In reverse!
BYMONEK
P.s Fractional, what 'refresher' might that be then?
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A complete Fiasco , agreed. This is where I feel the regulatory bodies need to protect the general public.If Airlines choose to divert and manage a SCHEDULE under the disguise of "operational reasons". I feel the CAA should investigate the consumers rights and penalise the airlines accordingly. ( Just like they penalise if you miss curfew). A totally different story if its for REAL operational reasons. The EU allready imposes heavy fines on airlines who cancell flights ( hence the planning from Dubai Opps to try and avert this). Problem is that it needs to be re examined. I feel after this fiasco the rules might well change in favour of the flying public. Especially also when we are going into a new era of enviromentally sensitive (green) regulations aimed at reducing emissions. ie. ( lets just burn another 7 tonnes of gas while we quickly reposition the aircraft to LGW).I really dont think you can point fingers at the Captain as it was safe. This was a COMMERCIAL decision and had nothing to do with the gentemans ability to be in command. Different story if passengers demanded to deplane at LHR , or the crew was fatigued or the pax became disruptive as a result. Thats His domain , but the Commercial decision rests with EK.
this a reminds me a a Grand Prix a few years ago where the Ferrari pit BOSS told the driver who was winning ( cant recall who it was , think it was Barracello)) to fall back to Second place to allow Schumaker to overtake him just at the finish line to ensure that Ferrari would win the drivers championship. Great for Ferrari , but not sporting. Subsequently it lead to a rethink of the rules by the governing body and now its not considered fair play.
this a reminds me a a Grand Prix a few years ago where the Ferrari pit BOSS told the driver who was winning ( cant recall who it was , think it was Barracello)) to fall back to Second place to allow Schumaker to overtake him just at the finish line to ensure that Ferrari would win the drivers championship. Great for Ferrari , but not sporting. Subsequently it lead to a rethink of the rules by the governing body and now its not considered fair play.