Attention EK A330 pilots
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Attention EK A330 pilots
Guys,
it happens just about every time that an EK A330 is made number one in a sequence...he dives for the deck and then stops, knocking on some serious speeds and/or vectors on the following pilots.
Today, we had an A330 thru BUBIN given speed of 310 and DCT LOVEL to keep him number one ahead of another companies A330.
The trailer was given min clean and was STILL overhauling the EK bus.(and he DID slow down).
The EK bus was at A100 with 70 miles to touch, he didn't seem too happy about not being given lower and when I couldn't approve lower he wanted to slow down????? Situational awareness....nil
Now I realise that we aren't flying your aircraft, and we are not pilots, but why is there such a disparity in the way different airlines drive their A330s?
Sensible answers only please, I am really interested...if it is going to be a standard thing, we can take measures to prevent too much vectoring for all the following aircraft, by taking the A330 out of the sequence and bringing everyone else in ahead of it.
it happens just about every time that an EK A330 is made number one in a sequence...he dives for the deck and then stops, knocking on some serious speeds and/or vectors on the following pilots.
Today, we had an A330 thru BUBIN given speed of 310 and DCT LOVEL to keep him number one ahead of another companies A330.
The trailer was given min clean and was STILL overhauling the EK bus.(and he DID slow down).
The EK bus was at A100 with 70 miles to touch, he didn't seem too happy about not being given lower and when I couldn't approve lower he wanted to slow down????? Situational awareness....nil
Now I realise that we aren't flying your aircraft, and we are not pilots, but why is there such a disparity in the way different airlines drive their A330s?
Sensible answers only please, I am really interested...if it is going to be a standard thing, we can take measures to prevent too much vectoring for all the following aircraft, by taking the A330 out of the sequence and bringing everyone else in ahead of it.
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Ek 330
I suppose you are an ATC man. Well, I am not EK 330 driver and I don't see any particular reason for such a behaviour. I have worked for EK a long time ago and I thought guys were very professionnal. Did you challenge him requesting his actual speed? Do you know if they do the same at LHR or other places?
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DD - quite right, it's not hard to follow ATC requirements in a 330. A good gate is a10000 at about 40 NM, and slowing to 250kts. (EK REQUIREMENT of 250 Kts BELOW 5000 AAL)
Anyway, what's wrong with the "chicken lever"??????
And just to edit to say we should be flying CDA's - or CONTINUAL DESCENT APPROACHS - saves fuel, makes less noise and is better energy management... Besides, it's a requirement into UK airports so why not do it at homebase?
Anyway, what's wrong with the "chicken lever"??????
And just to edit to say we should be flying CDA's - or CONTINUAL DESCENT APPROACHS - saves fuel, makes less noise and is better energy management... Besides, it's a requirement into UK airports so why not do it at homebase?
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I'll tell you why.
Because it's not emphasized at all during initial and transition training. Got to get those word perfect calls in every time and as long as you do that, who gives a rats a**e about CDA's? This Company assumes, incorrectly, that all the guys and girls with thousands of hours already know this stuff. The evidence on the line says otherwise, especially from our Yankee friends i'm afraid to say!
Harry
Because it's not emphasized at all during initial and transition training. Got to get those word perfect calls in every time and as long as you do that, who gives a rats a**e about CDA's? This Company assumes, incorrectly, that all the guys and girls with thousands of hours already know this stuff. The evidence on the line says otherwise, especially from our Yankee friends i'm afraid to say!
Harry
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Not really something that a line guy like me can answer. Yes a lot of us fly the A330 very conservatively. EK training on the A330 calls for that approach. Have you considered asking EK management? Maybe your input would assist the trainers?
Personally I don't think the 330 is that hard to handle, provided you are not held high. Back in the A320 days we would, if held high, try to stay at idle by reducing speed until we were cleared for descent then increasing again, but that was a different time and place, and less traffic. I can't really answer your question.
Personally I don't think the 330 is that hard to handle, provided you are not held high. Back in the A320 days we would, if held high, try to stay at idle by reducing speed until we were cleared for descent then increasing again, but that was a different time and place, and less traffic. I can't really answer your question.
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AN FO fossil
Unless you've been given specific speed controls, there's no reason why you can't still do that on the A330 and 777. It's called 'energy management'
Harry
Unless you've been given specific speed controls, there's no reason why you can't still do that on the A330 and 777. It's called 'energy management'
Harry
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divingduck
If held up on descent, as you indicated the 330 was, slowing down is the most appropriate thing to do. It is called energy management. If they were to maintain high speed while stuck at an intermediate altitude, the only way to meet your ever changing descent profile is by using speedbrake. Whilst prudent use of speedbrake is definitely one of the tools at our disposal, the net effect of being held up and using speedbrake is an increased fuel burn. As you may be aware, ek drivers are under considerable management pressure to minimise fuel burn, not to mention our own preference to have more fuel in tanks. So in a nutshell, slowing down when held up is first choice for any thinking operator of jet aircraft. If by slowing down it causes you difficulty in flow control, then you need to assigne speeds. It works in Heathrow, it should work here.
On the other hand if you expect us to guess what speed you want, you are going to get a variety of results.
V
On the other hand if you expect us to guess what speed you want, you are going to get a variety of results.
V
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Why dont they publish profile descents and USE them...would make atc's life a lot easier, and take the guesswork out of what is going to happen to us as flt crew...maybe there are airspace constraints or other factors that prevent this???
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the thing is we (atc's) want to stay out of the cockpit but when you've given 310+kts to the front A330 and the following a/c is 8-10'000ft above 15 miles behind doing 250kts (or less) and closing rapidly, it means that we will have to give decent restrictions with speed restrictions when levelled off for the No1 EK A330. More R/T and a less economical descent profile, DD like the rest of of just want a bit of common dog when it comes to assessing your place in the sequence 
having said that we do all that and then you get the magical mystery tour of 70+ track miles from DESDI gate for Rwy 12L
having said that we do all that and then you get the magical mystery tour of 70+ track miles from DESDI gate for Rwy 12L
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Tora, Tora, Tora!!!!
Speed decrease/increase is an important Energy management tool in all jet aircraft but on the A330 it is of vital importance if things start going awry on the profile. For all you ex Boeing guys, the speed brake on the A330 needs to be used aggresively sometimes, it was fitted for a reason so come on guys don't be shy. To stop any screaming about fuel conservation, if your thrust is at idle it does not matter what you do with the brake to regain profile does it????
Having said that has anyone else noticed that they have changed the idle factor in the box to +4 without publishing it. If my memory serves me correctly this will mean that the descent computation in the FMGEC will be really conservative compared to other types/3x table. Just a thought for all of you that follow the donut.
Keep discovering
Having said that has anyone else noticed that they have changed the idle factor in the box to +4 without publishing it. If my memory serves me correctly this will mean that the descent computation in the FMGEC will be really conservative compared to other types/3x table. Just a thought for all of you that follow the donut.
Keep discovering
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There may be any of several factors at play here:
- Emirates training and SOP's encouraging conservative energy levels
- Individual ability varies widely across 900 airbus pilots
- Higher aircraft may have a stronger tailwind component
- Higher aircraft will have a higher TAS for a given IAS
- Good energy management as previously stated
- Lack of faith in the awareness levels of ATC, as a result second guessing even the good ones
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Vorsicht
May be it was just my poor antipodean English, but the guy that was killing my sequence was the front guy!
He was given direct and high speed....and was then at A100 with 70 to touch. My question was why was he that low in the first place.
He was assigned 300kts or more by Muscat and on first contact I assigned 310 and direct, the last thing I want him to do is slow down!
Granted I held up his descent...but tell me, what level would he have been at BUBIN? 6000 or so?
Anyway guys, just tucking into a nice coldie, thanks for the replies thus far.
He was given direct and high speed....and was then at A100 with 70 to touch. My question was why was he that low in the first place.
He was assigned 300kts or more by Muscat and on first contact I assigned 310 and direct, the last thing I want him to do is slow down!
Granted I held up his descent...but tell me, what level would he have been at BUBIN? 6000 or so?
Anyway guys, just tucking into a nice coldie, thanks for the replies thus far.
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If you give someone a speed of 250kts and he is 10000' feet higher than the preceding aircraft at 300kts, the actual difference in True Airspeed is only about 20kts. In other words, IF the winds are exactly the same, then the difference in groundspeed, or what you see on radar is a lot less than what you think it should be. Factor in a higher windspeed, which is possibly a tailwind, and now the higher aircraft may in fact be overtaking the lower aircraft in spite of the fact that his Indicated airspeed is 50kts lower.
I believe there are 2 general rules for Indicated to True airspeed, one is that for every 1000 foot difference in altitude there is an additional 1.5% added to IAS to get TAS. The other one is that for every 1000 feet altitude difference add roughly 3kts to go from IAS to TAS.
As an example 2 different aircraft, one at 10K' and the other at 20K', showing exactly the same IAS, and in a NO WIND situation, the higher aircraft would be doing approximately 30kts faster groundspeed.
I believe there are 2 general rules for Indicated to True airspeed, one is that for every 1000 foot difference in altitude there is an additional 1.5% added to IAS to get TAS. The other one is that for every 1000 feet altitude difference add roughly 3kts to go from IAS to TAS.
As an example 2 different aircraft, one at 10K' and the other at 20K', showing exactly the same IAS, and in a NO WIND situation, the higher aircraft would be doing approximately 30kts faster groundspeed.
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Very interesting post diving duck, and some very pertinent replies from all you folks too. My 2 fils worth:
That is very low even on a 330. The guy must have got his calculations wrong.
Very true. The 330 is an amazing glider hence the very flat and long descent profile, well below other aircraft.
Someone mentioned that trainers encourage newbies to be conservative. This is the case because most new joiners have very few sectors to fly before being released to the line hence it's preferred if they first learn how to avoid being caught hot and high on what is an almost abnormally slippery aircraft rather than conserve fuel, which should (inshallah) come with more experience on type. ( This, however is not to say that A100 with 70 miles to run would be acceptable on a training flight, I'm just saying being a bit more conservative than an experienced line pilot would be) The simulator course does nothing to teach CDAs because the program involves mostly circuit work or aerial work close to the airport. The company policies don't help either - especially the one which requires us to fly a slow FMGS economy speed. It's OK to do that in a non-busy environment like Karachi etc but forget it if you're flying into DXB, LHR and so on - .8M/300 kts is then the best planning speed.
Stuff management pressure. I try to save gas because it's professional and also environmentally friendly
. And because the more fuel in my tanks the happier I am......
On a final note, the arrivals procedures into DXB are not too helpful either (not trying to criticise - just making a point). On different nights we have different procedures - sometimes holding, sometimes long vectors and so on, so it's a bit hard for us to anticipate. I still think that a new holding pattern somewhere close to the runway, with an S turn onto finals like we get at LHR, is the way to go.
G'night all.
A100 with 70 to touch
Higher aircraft will have a higher TAS for a given IAS
Someone mentioned that trainers encourage newbies to be conservative. This is the case because most new joiners have very few sectors to fly before being released to the line hence it's preferred if they first learn how to avoid being caught hot and high on what is an almost abnormally slippery aircraft rather than conserve fuel, which should (inshallah) come with more experience on type. ( This, however is not to say that A100 with 70 miles to run would be acceptable on a training flight, I'm just saying being a bit more conservative than an experienced line pilot would be) The simulator course does nothing to teach CDAs because the program involves mostly circuit work or aerial work close to the airport. The company policies don't help either - especially the one which requires us to fly a slow FMGS economy speed. It's OK to do that in a non-busy environment like Karachi etc but forget it if you're flying into DXB, LHR and so on - .8M/300 kts is then the best planning speed.
ek drivers are under considerable management pressure to minimise fuel burn
. And because the more fuel in my tanks the happier I am......On a final note, the arrivals procedures into DXB are not too helpful either (not trying to criticise - just making a point
). On different nights we have different procedures - sometimes holding, sometimes long vectors and so on, so it's a bit hard for us to anticipate. I still think that a new holding pattern somewhere close to the runway, with an S turn onto finals like we get at LHR, is the way to go.G'night all.
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Just publish some star arrivals and fly them....if the Gf 320 had flown a star arrival off of Dahran to Runway 12 at star speeds Gf would probably not be in todays mess.....and a lot more people alive.
I asked for such a star to be published many times in my Gf career time 1974 to 2000 and was told it was not necessary....most of us worked out ourown...I often took the ILS.
This was dispite two Air France aircraft crashing previously caught out exactly like the Gf 320 on the black hole approach on a moonless night.
I saw a Cathay 747 miss twice onto RW12 one night before failing safe and taking a 5 knot tailwind down the 30 ILS....he sure saved fuel that night....
Interestingly after the two aAir France crashes onto RW12 Gulf Aviation introduced a rule that you always took the ils option if the wind was within limits at night....somewhere along the line at GF this rule was dropped.
As usual I agree with Iron Butt a pretty wise yank who has been around the block.
I asked for such a star to be published many times in my Gf career time 1974 to 2000 and was told it was not necessary....most of us worked out ourown...I often took the ILS.
This was dispite two Air France aircraft crashing previously caught out exactly like the Gf 320 on the black hole approach on a moonless night.
I saw a Cathay 747 miss twice onto RW12 one night before failing safe and taking a 5 knot tailwind down the 30 ILS....he sure saved fuel that night....
Interestingly after the two aAir France crashes onto RW12 Gulf Aviation introduced a rule that you always took the ils option if the wind was within limits at night....somewhere along the line at GF this rule was dropped.
As usual I agree with Iron Butt a pretty wise yank who has been around the block.
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To answer Muttley crew, and assuming you mean you get a direct routing to LOVOL/UKRIM followed by a vector away from that point...
If you're going BUBIN-LOVOL or DESDI-UKRIM, it can often be to deconflict you with the downwind. Sometimes there's also an element of "suck it and see". If you're keeping the speed up when we can make you number one, you'll continue to the FACF. If, on the other hand, you have NOT been given a cancellation of speed restrictions and we intended to put you, say number 4, and in fact you're still grounding 350kts+, we may well vector you off that track rather than pulling your speed way back.
As for being 70nm from touchdown at 10,000 ft, that seems like poor descent planning... There also times when it might be useful though! The airspace doesn't always allow for constant descent profiles thanks to arrivals coming from 4 possible directions and departures going out of 5 gates (MIADA and MAXMO are both arrival and departure gates) with a lot of crossing tracks.
On a more general point, our flow control tools are limited. It's the guy in the co-ordinator's seat at Dubai and the guys at the centre who answer the phone! We're not permitted to issue crossing times at DESDI and BUBIN - just to issue an in-trail spacing requirement to the centre. We can sometimes "reach out and touch someone", offering direct FACF and high speed to the centre for individual aircraft, though we're not technically permitted to co-ordinate for individual aircraft (go figure...).
Perhaps the best thing a pilot can do to help him/herself and others, both ATC and other crews, is let us know if you have to slam on the breaks ahead of time. If direct LOVOL/UKRIM will give you descent problems, TELL US YOU'D RATHER FLY THE STAR.
We always want to get you on the ground, safely and as expeditiously as possible, and certainly there is a range of experience and ability levels in any ATC unit which can effect how efficiently we do that, but please never doubt that as controllers, we want to give you the best service we can offer given the equipment, airspace and support at our disposal.
If you're going BUBIN-LOVOL or DESDI-UKRIM, it can often be to deconflict you with the downwind. Sometimes there's also an element of "suck it and see". If you're keeping the speed up when we can make you number one, you'll continue to the FACF. If, on the other hand, you have NOT been given a cancellation of speed restrictions and we intended to put you, say number 4, and in fact you're still grounding 350kts+, we may well vector you off that track rather than pulling your speed way back.
As for being 70nm from touchdown at 10,000 ft, that seems like poor descent planning... There also times when it might be useful though! The airspace doesn't always allow for constant descent profiles thanks to arrivals coming from 4 possible directions and departures going out of 5 gates (MIADA and MAXMO are both arrival and departure gates) with a lot of crossing tracks.
On a more general point, our flow control tools are limited. It's the guy in the co-ordinator's seat at Dubai and the guys at the centre who answer the phone! We're not permitted to issue crossing times at DESDI and BUBIN - just to issue an in-trail spacing requirement to the centre. We can sometimes "reach out and touch someone", offering direct FACF and high speed to the centre for individual aircraft, though we're not technically permitted to co-ordinate for individual aircraft (go figure...).
Perhaps the best thing a pilot can do to help him/herself and others, both ATC and other crews, is let us know if you have to slam on the breaks ahead of time. If direct LOVOL/UKRIM will give you descent problems, TELL US YOU'D RATHER FLY THE STAR.
We always want to get you on the ground, safely and as expeditiously as possible, and certainly there is a range of experience and ability levels in any ATC unit which can effect how efficiently we do that, but please never doubt that as controllers, we want to give you the best service we can offer given the equipment, airspace and support at our disposal.
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Blood*y hell. You guys are right into this. Very serious.
Ah, Harry, if your there, yes I do understand and do apply enery management principles. No need to take that sarcastic tone.
To the rest of you, enjoy the thread. I'm off to the beach.
Ah, Harry, if your there, yes I do understand and do apply enery management principles. No need to take that sarcastic tone.
To the rest of you, enjoy the thread. I'm off to the beach.
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Just saw one almost looping-the-loop a very few minutes ago above my house, on its approach into DXB. Nice go-around. (15:15 lcl)
Is the A330 an agile machine? Recall a captain on an A300-600R a few years back (when cockpit rides WERE permitted) telling me that the A300 was "like a jet fighter to fly" in terms of its agility.
Prefer not to experience that though.................
Back on track now.......................
Is the A330 an agile machine? Recall a captain on an A300-600R a few years back (when cockpit rides WERE permitted) telling me that the A300 was "like a jet fighter to fly" in terms of its agility.
Prefer not to experience that though.................
Back on track now.......................
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Sequencing dilema
I think Diving Duck is not really questionning the A330's low level so far away from touch as to the pilot's questionning of the speed control. If you're number 1 we need you to go fast whether you are high or low. If you're number 1 but your priority is to fly slow and conserve fuel we can make you number 2 however the extra track miles would defeat the purpose.
Dubai has become a very busy airport, (not Heathrow busy acknowledged), but busy enough that we (as controllers) can rarely accomodate everyone's desired profile. We would if we could, we are on your side, really!
Dubai has become a very busy airport, (not Heathrow busy acknowledged), but busy enough that we (as controllers) can rarely accomodate everyone's desired profile. We would if we could, we are on your side, really!
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A300 man, I suspect the 300 captain you spoke to a few years back has never flown a fast jet...
DD if a 330, or any type for that matter coming in from Oman FIR to DXB is at 10K' at 70nm then there is not much height above the rocks. And in summer particularly he is getting knocked by turbulence and probabley slowed down without telling you. Don't know why he was that low, maybe checking out camping spots??? But to suggest this is common with Ek 330s is crap I would have to say.
DD if a 330, or any type for that matter coming in from Oman FIR to DXB is at 10K' at 70nm then there is not much height above the rocks. And in summer particularly he is getting knocked by turbulence and probabley slowed down without telling you. Don't know why he was that low, maybe checking out camping spots??? But to suggest this is common with Ek 330s is crap I would have to say.