EK Lawsuit
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
From: Varies!
Lou
Your second post and a new joiner today. Welcome. Or, perhaps more likely, an old hand who's decided it's time for a new handle judging by the nature of your post. Very 411A? Either way, I feel obliged to reply.
Yes, it's an expat job.Well spotted. We all know that which is why many here made huge decisions before leaving. Leaving family and friends behind and yes, in many cases, good jobs. Many will have spent hours trolling through Pprune and based their decisions on that, while others may have sought advice from friends and colleagues already here. But what about those that joined 4 years ago based on information over three days of recruitment and interview. Some here may well call it naivity on their part but when a Company with Ek's pedigree comes calling, you would have no reason not to believe them. Of course, that was then. Now, times have changed and so unfortunately has the reputation of this Airline. At least where Pilots are concerned anyway. The latest roadshows have met with only limited success and those that may be interested in joining are asking the sort of questions that many of us wished we'd asked years ago. The 3 hour 'presentation' is slick but many now want to know more than the final height of Burj Dubai or how many dinasours will be roaming Dubailand eating all 'the little brown fellahs'! Difficult questions are met with economical replies or "see me after the show". Unbelievably, some members of fleet management are still advising 3 years to command for the newbies that are coming through. Regardless of their fleet. The only thing that this achieves is the perpetual belief among F/o's that their time will come.......... in 3 years!
That, however, is not the reason legal action is being threatened. Discrimination is defined as when a distinction is made or unfair treatment is received, especially because of prejudice. It makes no difference whatsoever whether you're expat or not. Ethnic origin is also completely irrelevent.
Whatever people may say and regardless of how Emirates apply it, we do have a seniority system in place. We have a date of joining with published lists. We also have salary increments based as such. We are NOT contract pilots so please stop implying as such. The only 'temporary' aspect to our employment is the 3 year Visa renewal which every non national, working or otherwise, needs to complete. Comparing professional Pilots to other working groups here in Dubai is beyond naivety so please save the wind up comments for a different forum.
The FOM is littered with confusion and contradictions, however, the upgrade policy clearly states that ultimately the needs of Emirates will come first. Whilst i'm sure we'd all agree with that principle, it also states that progression is in seniority order. Great! But it isn't great because what we end up with is a mish mash of policies that are not consistently applied and are changed more frequently than the landing runway in Dubai. A kneejerk reaction from a tragic accident several years ago that has had far reaching implications for those employed in this part of the World. This has lead to resentment and discontent amongst the Pilots. Not just on the Airbus, but across all fleets. The only 'bum deal' these guys got was not being told the complete picture before they joined. It's easy for us all, now that we're acclimatised to the way it works here, but how many of us can say hand on heart that we all new about the pitfalls of living and working in the Middle East. Were they told that 'historically' your progress will depend on Aircraft type, that you're joining an 'expat gig' and your 'ass is ours'. I doubt it very much. Neither do I doubt the fact that as a Company, we will not offer passover pay to those dis-advantaged by fleet. Rather perverse when you consider all the huffing and puffing this Company made towards Airbus for compensation for its own 'financial loss' due to late delivery.
Ironically, it's this very issue of command that's at the heart of our recruitment problems. There are others and growing by the day, but this is one that we as a Company have a direct control over. If Emirates was to strictly apply the rule of seniority and have faith in those that it recruited and trained,then we wouldn't be in this mess. Were we all not told at interview that the Company only recruits future Captains, not First Officers? DEC's need not ponder that question and may continue.The decent Pilots are drying up and standards are begining to drop. It will continue to deteriorate unless we are prepared to lower the minimum experience level. Not Standards, but experience. There is a huge difference between the two but somebody needs to explain that to those at the very top.They wrongly equate experience with ability. And that's not the only problem. If we had faith in our own training system then transition upgrades would pass. As it is, our very own training department has been decimated over the last 3 years or so and inconsistency is the new buzz word as Alteon instructors become the norm rather than the exception. Incompetent planning has resulted in training being undertaken in London with BA and out in Singapore. There's now not enough sim time or even trainers to train the new trainers. Could you just imagine the state we'd be in if the 380's were on time.
Then again, I guess if that were so, the Airbus guys would be Captains by now. Instead of plaintiffs!
"ALL RISE" "Judge Al Maktoum now presiding"
Your second post and a new joiner today. Welcome. Or, perhaps more likely, an old hand who's decided it's time for a new handle judging by the nature of your post. Very 411A? Either way, I feel obliged to reply.
Yes, it's an expat job.Well spotted. We all know that which is why many here made huge decisions before leaving. Leaving family and friends behind and yes, in many cases, good jobs. Many will have spent hours trolling through Pprune and based their decisions on that, while others may have sought advice from friends and colleagues already here. But what about those that joined 4 years ago based on information over three days of recruitment and interview. Some here may well call it naivity on their part but when a Company with Ek's pedigree comes calling, you would have no reason not to believe them. Of course, that was then. Now, times have changed and so unfortunately has the reputation of this Airline. At least where Pilots are concerned anyway. The latest roadshows have met with only limited success and those that may be interested in joining are asking the sort of questions that many of us wished we'd asked years ago. The 3 hour 'presentation' is slick but many now want to know more than the final height of Burj Dubai or how many dinasours will be roaming Dubailand eating all 'the little brown fellahs'! Difficult questions are met with economical replies or "see me after the show". Unbelievably, some members of fleet management are still advising 3 years to command for the newbies that are coming through. Regardless of their fleet. The only thing that this achieves is the perpetual belief among F/o's that their time will come.......... in 3 years!
That, however, is not the reason legal action is being threatened. Discrimination is defined as when a distinction is made or unfair treatment is received, especially because of prejudice. It makes no difference whatsoever whether you're expat or not. Ethnic origin is also completely irrelevent.
Whatever people may say and regardless of how Emirates apply it, we do have a seniority system in place. We have a date of joining with published lists. We also have salary increments based as such. We are NOT contract pilots so please stop implying as such. The only 'temporary' aspect to our employment is the 3 year Visa renewal which every non national, working or otherwise, needs to complete. Comparing professional Pilots to other working groups here in Dubai is beyond naivety so please save the wind up comments for a different forum.
The FOM is littered with confusion and contradictions, however, the upgrade policy clearly states that ultimately the needs of Emirates will come first. Whilst i'm sure we'd all agree with that principle, it also states that progression is in seniority order. Great! But it isn't great because what we end up with is a mish mash of policies that are not consistently applied and are changed more frequently than the landing runway in Dubai. A kneejerk reaction from a tragic accident several years ago that has had far reaching implications for those employed in this part of the World. This has lead to resentment and discontent amongst the Pilots. Not just on the Airbus, but across all fleets. The only 'bum deal' these guys got was not being told the complete picture before they joined. It's easy for us all, now that we're acclimatised to the way it works here, but how many of us can say hand on heart that we all new about the pitfalls of living and working in the Middle East. Were they told that 'historically' your progress will depend on Aircraft type, that you're joining an 'expat gig' and your 'ass is ours'. I doubt it very much. Neither do I doubt the fact that as a Company, we will not offer passover pay to those dis-advantaged by fleet. Rather perverse when you consider all the huffing and puffing this Company made towards Airbus for compensation for its own 'financial loss' due to late delivery.
Ironically, it's this very issue of command that's at the heart of our recruitment problems. There are others and growing by the day, but this is one that we as a Company have a direct control over. If Emirates was to strictly apply the rule of seniority and have faith in those that it recruited and trained,then we wouldn't be in this mess. Were we all not told at interview that the Company only recruits future Captains, not First Officers? DEC's need not ponder that question and may continue.The decent Pilots are drying up and standards are begining to drop. It will continue to deteriorate unless we are prepared to lower the minimum experience level. Not Standards, but experience. There is a huge difference between the two but somebody needs to explain that to those at the very top.They wrongly equate experience with ability. And that's not the only problem. If we had faith in our own training system then transition upgrades would pass. As it is, our very own training department has been decimated over the last 3 years or so and inconsistency is the new buzz word as Alteon instructors become the norm rather than the exception. Incompetent planning has resulted in training being undertaken in London with BA and out in Singapore. There's now not enough sim time or even trainers to train the new trainers. Could you just imagine the state we'd be in if the 380's were on time.
Then again, I guess if that were so, the Airbus guys would be Captains by now. Instead of plaintiffs!
"ALL RISE" "Judge Al Maktoum now presiding"
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
From: >FL310
Try this on for size, if all this is true. Fairly soon, all 12 will probably be offered an upgrade (suit goes away). During the interview process or subsequent training it is determined that they are "not ready" for command for reason a or b or c. 
Or the PPC is failed or final line check. I'm betting on the interview and examination phase.
T/U
Or the PPC is failed or final line check. I'm betting on the interview and examination phase.T/U
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: UAE
law suit bol!ocks
Uptil now I asumed that we have intelligent people on the bus. Now I cant remember a contract promising any time
frame for upgrade. I guess the dirty dozen need to find something between the legs(I.E. B777 crossover).Just humour folks.
frame for upgrade. I guess the dirty dozen need to find something between the legs(I.E. B777 crossover).Just humour folks.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 712
Likes: 0
From: not in Dubai anymore
It was said already 3 years ago that it will take much longer than 3 years for an upgrade, it was all over pprune, but some guys love to lie to themself.
I don't like EK and hate Dubai, thats why I am working to get out of here ASAP but the truth is that there was never a seniority in EK and it's up to the owner to decide which idiot he puts in charge ofhis OWN company and who gets an upgrade and who doesn't.
There are a zillion of postings on this site and if new joiners don't make their homework and get some inside info and believe what the recruiters tell them it's their own fault.
Don't compare Dubai and it's mickey mouse laws with the real world.
Now you can fire at me for telling the truth
GT
I don't like EK and hate Dubai, thats why I am working to get out of here ASAP but the truth is that there was never a seniority in EK and it's up to the owner to decide which idiot he puts in charge ofhis OWN company and who gets an upgrade and who doesn't.
There are a zillion of postings on this site and if new joiners don't make their homework and get some inside info and believe what the recruiters tell them it's their own fault.
Don't compare Dubai and it's mickey mouse laws with the real world.
Now you can fire at me for telling the truth
GT
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
From: Retired
If this is a wind up it has elicited a lot of response. As one of the disadvantaged AB guys, neither I nor a couple of my colleagues whom I have questioned knows a thing about such an action. There has been no posting on the AB f/o yahoo group swap site. Methinks all hot air......
I do think there would be a fair number of guys willing to explore the options further if we knew the origins of the story and colluded to advace this course of action. I think it would be difficult to pursue a lawsuit, but the potential to embarass and therefore provoke action is an option, particularly in a carrier which spends so much on advertising its product and shies away from any adverse publicity.
I do think there would be a fair number of guys willing to explore the options further if we knew the origins of the story and colluded to advace this course of action. I think it would be difficult to pursue a lawsuit, but the potential to embarass and therefore provoke action is an option, particularly in a carrier which spends so much on advertising its product and shies away from any adverse publicity.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 0
From: uae
I do know a few of the guys in recruitment and none of them have or ever will promise anything, quote the company mins yes but thats as far as that goes. If the dirty dozen tries to embarrass the company should be a fun upgrade for them.Enjoy.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Hmm well, as I was mentioned previously, might as well offer advice, though I expect it will not be properly received.
This same sort of nonsense was tried at SaudiArabian some time ago, by ex-EAL pilots, and they were told, enmass, by the company that if they did not back off and keep their traps firmly shut, the entire group would be dismissed forthwith, and be on the next plane out...and not necessarily to their home country, either.
To those at EK today, do you really believe that this would or could not happen today, just because you are in DXB?
Really?
I submit that the same scenario would be forthcoming, or a slight variation mentioned before...command assessment or upgrade training offered, then failed, and promptly out the door, whether the perfomance during said training was up to snuff, or not.
In short, it so very easy to boot malcontents out the door, as apparently some, even today, have not fully realised that in DXB, and indeed elsewhere in the mid-east, legal proceedings are clearly biased toward the companies concerned.
Especially so where a government owned company is concerned.
This same sort of nonsense was tried at SaudiArabian some time ago, by ex-EAL pilots, and they were told, enmass, by the company that if they did not back off and keep their traps firmly shut, the entire group would be dismissed forthwith, and be on the next plane out...and not necessarily to their home country, either.
To those at EK today, do you really believe that this would or could not happen today, just because you are in DXB?
Really?
I submit that the same scenario would be forthcoming, or a slight variation mentioned before...command assessment or upgrade training offered, then failed, and promptly out the door, whether the perfomance during said training was up to snuff, or not.
In short, it so very easy to boot malcontents out the door, as apparently some, even today, have not fully realised that in DXB, and indeed elsewhere in the mid-east, legal proceedings are clearly biased toward the companies concerned.
Especially so where a government owned company is concerned.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Straya
Go for it guys. Good luck.
Remember that you signed your contracts in your home country, before you came to DXB, so legally you can try the case there. Don't bother trying it in DXB. I can tell you from experience that 90% of the law firms are in the employ of EK and will not touch the case due to a conflict of interest. Make sure you contact a tabloid with your case as well. If a UK tabloid will devote 2pages to an EK pilots divorce proceedings, they should give this some coverage too.
I don't think EK will want the bad publicity amongst the pilot community at the moment considering how many they need to hire in the coming years.
Remember that you signed your contracts in your home country, before you came to DXB, so legally you can try the case there. Don't bother trying it in DXB. I can tell you from experience that 90% of the law firms are in the employ of EK and will not touch the case due to a conflict of interest. Make sure you contact a tabloid with your case as well. If a UK tabloid will devote 2pages to an EK pilots divorce proceedings, they should give this some coverage too.
I don't think EK will want the bad publicity amongst the pilot community at the moment considering how many they need to hire in the coming years.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Planet Janet (sand pit)
I beg to differ young Biff (about the contract bit).
You could have signed the contract in Timbuk Too and it's irrelevant as you'll find it's actually a Dubai contract you've signed, not an English, French, Ozzie or anything else one for that matter.
I really wish the guys all the best (if it's true) but let's face it, it's going to come back on you in one way or another either financially (if you can't secure Erin Brockevich
) or through command assesment failure etc etc.
Save your very hard earned money boys and spend it on some good beer instead (and there's not much of that here
)!
The Fox and Firkin
You could have signed the contract in Timbuk Too and it's irrelevant as you'll find it's actually a Dubai contract you've signed, not an English, French, Ozzie or anything else one for that matter.
I really wish the guys all the best (if it's true) but let's face it, it's going to come back on you in one way or another either financially (if you can't secure Erin Brockevich
) or through command assesment failure etc etc.Save your very hard earned money boys and spend it on some good beer instead (and there's not much of that here
)!The Fox and Firkin
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 435
Likes: 5
From: Bolivia
411a
I hear what you're saying, but a few things have changed for the better over the last 12-18 months. First and foremost there is a whole bunch of guys here (F/O's) who are not the slightest bit concerned about getting the bullet. There are plenty of jobs to go to and some are on furlough from the US. I flew with an F/O the other day who is leaving after 3 years to go and fly corporate in the states.
Secondly, the UAE of today bears little resemblance to Saudi of years ago. They may still have the same attitude, but they have had to outwardly adjust it in order to appear like a 1st world country (well at least not the 3rd world country it really is) in order to gain entrance to the WTO et al. Remember the Dubai Ports fiasco. That is how the world really sees this place, and they need to be seen to be doing the right thing even if they dont believe it.
Thirdly, more than one pilot has sued the company for unfair dismissal in the UK, and won handsomely. Sure they had already lost their jobs and had little more to lose, except the legal fees. But as i said, there are many here who dont care about losing their jobs. Any pilot with a pulse can walk into a widebody job somewhere at the moment.
So while the company might like to sack them/fail them on their command, the UK courts would have something else to say about that too.
So i would say that if there is any substance to this rumour, and they take it to the UK, or some other labour friendly country, they might stand a reasonable chance of winning. On the other hand, they might lose their jobs.
Not everyone is happy to sit back and accept ME crap just because challenging it might cause some heartache.
Good luck to em. If it is true and they win then we will all benefit, therefore we should all support it.
But we know better dont we.
Pilots aren't in tha habit of supporting their colleagues in order to further the profession. They are more in the style of "F**k you, I'm all right jack"
V
Secondly, the UAE of today bears little resemblance to Saudi of years ago. They may still have the same attitude, but they have had to outwardly adjust it in order to appear like a 1st world country (well at least not the 3rd world country it really is) in order to gain entrance to the WTO et al. Remember the Dubai Ports fiasco. That is how the world really sees this place, and they need to be seen to be doing the right thing even if they dont believe it.
Thirdly, more than one pilot has sued the company for unfair dismissal in the UK, and won handsomely. Sure they had already lost their jobs and had little more to lose, except the legal fees. But as i said, there are many here who dont care about losing their jobs. Any pilot with a pulse can walk into a widebody job somewhere at the moment.
So while the company might like to sack them/fail them on their command, the UK courts would have something else to say about that too.
So i would say that if there is any substance to this rumour, and they take it to the UK, or some other labour friendly country, they might stand a reasonable chance of winning. On the other hand, they might lose their jobs.
Not everyone is happy to sit back and accept ME crap just because challenging it might cause some heartache.
Good luck to em. If it is true and they win then we will all benefit, therefore we should all support it.
But we know better dont we.
Pilots aren't in tha habit of supporting their colleagues in order to further the profession. They are more in the style of "F**k you, I'm all right jack"
V
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
At the risk of causing total thread creep, from observation, since ariving in Dubai, and especially within the EK pilot group
would seem to have been invented in the very country some of you are suggesting these people should try their lawsuit.
If I haven't made myself clear, I mean the UK.
"F**k you, I'm all right jack"
If I haven't made myself clear, I mean the UK.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
From: Gulf playing Golf
Dont waste you time, hope and money. If you have been here for 3 years and you still dont know the ways of the land, bless you, you must be ignorant fools to think you can will such a case against EK in Dubai. Boeing fleet is one side AB another.
5 years to a heavy command, is that so bad?
5 years to a heavy command, is that so bad?
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
From: Varies!
No, Payscale, it isn't. In fact, 5 years is bloody good going if;
1) This is your first jet job and you haven't already spent the last 15 years gaining valuable experience elsewhere.
2) Everyone else in the same Company takes 5 years to command and it's in strict seniority order. Regardless of aircraft type or previous command time.
3) DEC's don't even enter the equation. In fact, they shouldn't even enter the Company!
4) They tell the absolute truth during roadshows and at interview.
Knowing how it actually works here AFTER you arrive is the easy bit. The hard bit is knowing BEFORE you arrive.
1) This is your first jet job and you haven't already spent the last 15 years gaining valuable experience elsewhere.
2) Everyone else in the same Company takes 5 years to command and it's in strict seniority order. Regardless of aircraft type or previous command time.
3) DEC's don't even enter the equation. In fact, they shouldn't even enter the Company!
4) They tell the absolute truth during roadshows and at interview.
Knowing how it actually works here AFTER you arrive is the easy bit. The hard bit is knowing BEFORE you arrive.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
From: Gulf playing Golf
bymonek
Point proven! You just dont get it! This is the UAE. The middle east.
Forget promisses. Forget strict senoirty lists. Forget the ways of a democratic society. That doesnt wash here. You are on your own. Noone will stand up for you. Sorry to say, but I agree with the other fellow you said, 12 guys will be looking for a new job soon. EK cant afford grassroots. Sorry.
See the Boeing fleet as another company. 6 years ago they were waiting for their commands. Now it us..
This country is build on dreams of quick capital gain. Be it investors or employees. Many people are hired into jobs they are underqualified for. Banks. Real Estate agencies. Car dealers. Shop attendants...
The longer you stay the more difficult it is to leave.
Point proven! You just dont get it! This is the UAE. The middle east.
Forget promisses. Forget strict senoirty lists. Forget the ways of a democratic society. That doesnt wash here. You are on your own. Noone will stand up for you. Sorry to say, but I agree with the other fellow you said, 12 guys will be looking for a new job soon. EK cant afford grassroots. Sorry.
See the Boeing fleet as another company. 6 years ago they were waiting for their commands. Now it us..
This country is build on dreams of quick capital gain. Be it investors or employees. Many people are hired into jobs they are underqualified for. Banks. Real Estate agencies. Car dealers. Shop attendants...
The longer you stay the more difficult it is to leave.