Are we being too negative?
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Are we being too negative?
Looking at most of the threads I can see that most people are not statisfied with their situation, irrespective of where they are in this part of the world. I started wondering are we being too negative. Don't get me wrong, I know there is plenty that needs improvement and one of the frustrating things in many of the countries here is that with the way things are structured here, there are no formal channels of feedback that can help ease this steam. Unlike some other parts of the world where a decent feedback might be appreciated and actually raised as flags with the respective management, things here are almost always somehow more complicated than that, even though they should not be. With the amount of growth going on in the whole region, my point of view is that these companies have no choice but be "learning companies" in the sense that they need to encourage the kind of attitude that gives constructive feedback from all the people involved for the sake of all. The company would benefit in a huge way if it does that because the expertise and the involvment of the people can actually make things better not just of the staff and the crew but for the company itself. Actually, I do not see any other way to go about this huge growth.
Back to the main point, we are all in one place or the other for a reason, being in some kind of committment, being financial or otherwise; lack of alternatives, even if it is for a period of time; we like the sunny weather and dont mind the mishaps that we have to go through; or getting a type rating for a step somewhere else, whatever it is, what are the actual things that we can do, if any, to improve our situation for the duration that we decide to stay? if any. The stress of the nature of our jobs in terms of the responsibility and the irregular hours and lifestyle makes have a decent life outside the aircraft a very important one, if we are to do it for the best parts of our lives. Do we tend to get too much into a negative loop of thinking that we stopped trying positively doing anything about it? or is it really a hopeless situation? And if we decide to move to a totally different part of the world, say the far east for an example, is going to be ultimately better and we'd stop complaining or is just a shift to a different negative loop?
All this is compounded of course by the multi cultural environment that we are in, because unless we are flying in our respective countries or the related region, chances are that we are dealing with a whole bunch of challenges inside and outside the aircraft that don't make the stress any less, but this is part of the expat life that we have decided to lead, again for one reason or the other.
With the huge shortages in the crew now and for the coming years, logic suggests that things have to shape up to a better equilibrium to sustain this growth, so I guess things will get better. At what pace or rate is beyong me but its a logical deduction. Shall we hold on, or can we hold on? or just move on? or just complain?
Any thoughts to be raised?
Back to the main point, we are all in one place or the other for a reason, being in some kind of committment, being financial or otherwise; lack of alternatives, even if it is for a period of time; we like the sunny weather and dont mind the mishaps that we have to go through; or getting a type rating for a step somewhere else, whatever it is, what are the actual things that we can do, if any, to improve our situation for the duration that we decide to stay? if any. The stress of the nature of our jobs in terms of the responsibility and the irregular hours and lifestyle makes have a decent life outside the aircraft a very important one, if we are to do it for the best parts of our lives. Do we tend to get too much into a negative loop of thinking that we stopped trying positively doing anything about it? or is it really a hopeless situation? And if we decide to move to a totally different part of the world, say the far east for an example, is going to be ultimately better and we'd stop complaining or is just a shift to a different negative loop?
All this is compounded of course by the multi cultural environment that we are in, because unless we are flying in our respective countries or the related region, chances are that we are dealing with a whole bunch of challenges inside and outside the aircraft that don't make the stress any less, but this is part of the expat life that we have decided to lead, again for one reason or the other.
With the huge shortages in the crew now and for the coming years, logic suggests that things have to shape up to a better equilibrium to sustain this growth, so I guess things will get better. At what pace or rate is beyong me but its a logical deduction. Shall we hold on, or can we hold on? or just move on? or just complain?
Any thoughts to be raised?
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AC330
Good post.
What I've found is that it appears to be mostly expat mentality of trying to be pro-active and not re-active.
In my company there appears, and are a lot of changes that can be made to improve productivity and efficiancy-but no matter how hard an individual, or group tries they get thwarted at most turns.Over the years it gets less and less and the enthusiasm and drive either gets beaten out of you or you loose interest in trying to help.A very sad and sorry state of affairs but true.I would like to think that I'm a professional but now after 3 years I'm sad to admit-I do the job(as best as I can) but then i go home and collect the pay.The days of trying to improve things or get things changed for all,not just myself,have long gone.
Why is it.....it's not for a lack of funding,not for a lack of experience but an empathy that surrounds the region. No - its not any different anywhere else away from home-the grass is NOT greener-just different courses for different horses.Long gone are the days of having a great lifestyle and putting abit of cash away.Most people out in this region are here now for the quality of life-not the job.There are fundamental issues here that NEED to be addressed by the government and companies to keep people here.Once the quality of life gets erroded then the exodus will be huge-and believe me it is starting.this place will end up as a transient town if not already.
For me it is a great place to live in with a lot of pros but the time is coming when enough will be enough.I'm lucky that I have fallback options in housing and work but a lot of people will have to grin and bear it thru the rough times.No i dont think the decline has bottomed out-there is still a long way to go-if some one doesn't wake up and smell the coffee then Dubai will go the same way as Saudi.
My 2 pence worth.My opinions.
chinny
VTSP
What I've found is that it appears to be mostly expat mentality of trying to be pro-active and not re-active.
In my company there appears, and are a lot of changes that can be made to improve productivity and efficiancy-but no matter how hard an individual, or group tries they get thwarted at most turns.Over the years it gets less and less and the enthusiasm and drive either gets beaten out of you or you loose interest in trying to help.A very sad and sorry state of affairs but true.I would like to think that I'm a professional but now after 3 years I'm sad to admit-I do the job(as best as I can) but then i go home and collect the pay.The days of trying to improve things or get things changed for all,not just myself,have long gone.
Why is it.....it's not for a lack of funding,not for a lack of experience but an empathy that surrounds the region. No - its not any different anywhere else away from home-the grass is NOT greener-just different courses for different horses.Long gone are the days of having a great lifestyle and putting abit of cash away.Most people out in this region are here now for the quality of life-not the job.There are fundamental issues here that NEED to be addressed by the government and companies to keep people here.Once the quality of life gets erroded then the exodus will be huge-and believe me it is starting.this place will end up as a transient town if not already.
For me it is a great place to live in with a lot of pros but the time is coming when enough will be enough.I'm lucky that I have fallback options in housing and work but a lot of people will have to grin and bear it thru the rough times.No i dont think the decline has bottomed out-there is still a long way to go-if some one doesn't wake up and smell the coffee then Dubai will go the same way as Saudi.
My 2 pence worth.My opinions.
chinny
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AC300:
Things here are almost always somehow more complicated than that, even though they should not be.
Actually it’s not more complicated, but easier: It’s infantile in the very sense of the word.
With the amount of growth going on in the whole region, my point of view is that these companies have no choice but be "learning companies"
They would have a choice though: You can learn the infantile way, like your kid, by first declining any advice (“I know better, Dad’s a nerd…”) and then accumulating experience and ending up with similar conclusions, admittedly sometimes better ones, but very often even new talent can’t beat physics or classic human behaviour. Or you can learn quicker and cheaper, by asking and listening to experience hanging around. And there’s massive amount of experience here! It’s just that the infantile behavior, paired with the prevailing huge arrogance of our chiefs, leads to this being a no option. It’s sad that these chiefs are mainly Westerners, but they succumb to the local attitude the moment they’re under local pressure, and to many the dictatorial-style leadership actually suits their character, as they often didn’t fully succeed in the civilized world.
And if we decide to move to a totally different part of the world, say the far east for an example, is going to be ultimately better and we'd stop complaining or is just a shift to a different negative loop?
That’s the eternal dilemma. I believe we can basically choose OZ, US or EU environment to get civilized treatment but still dim career prospects. Or we go to the expanding world of ME/FE and just wait out until these places grow up. Hopefully with as little harm as possible to man, machine and your career. Aviation History has unfortunately shown, even in the West, that improvement only follows some horrid events. Every newcomer thinks he’s cleverer than the rest and knows better what corners to cut. It’s up to each and everyone to judge if his actual environment has become safe enough and never hope you can improve things in your career time.
Bitching does not help the cause, but definitely helps your mental and physical health.
My 5cts
Things here are almost always somehow more complicated than that, even though they should not be.
Actually it’s not more complicated, but easier: It’s infantile in the very sense of the word.
With the amount of growth going on in the whole region, my point of view is that these companies have no choice but be "learning companies"
They would have a choice though: You can learn the infantile way, like your kid, by first declining any advice (“I know better, Dad’s a nerd…”) and then accumulating experience and ending up with similar conclusions, admittedly sometimes better ones, but very often even new talent can’t beat physics or classic human behaviour. Or you can learn quicker and cheaper, by asking and listening to experience hanging around. And there’s massive amount of experience here! It’s just that the infantile behavior, paired with the prevailing huge arrogance of our chiefs, leads to this being a no option. It’s sad that these chiefs are mainly Westerners, but they succumb to the local attitude the moment they’re under local pressure, and to many the dictatorial-style leadership actually suits their character, as they often didn’t fully succeed in the civilized world.
And if we decide to move to a totally different part of the world, say the far east for an example, is going to be ultimately better and we'd stop complaining or is just a shift to a different negative loop?
That’s the eternal dilemma. I believe we can basically choose OZ, US or EU environment to get civilized treatment but still dim career prospects. Or we go to the expanding world of ME/FE and just wait out until these places grow up. Hopefully with as little harm as possible to man, machine and your career. Aviation History has unfortunately shown, even in the West, that improvement only follows some horrid events. Every newcomer thinks he’s cleverer than the rest and knows better what corners to cut. It’s up to each and everyone to judge if his actual environment has become safe enough and never hope you can improve things in your career time.
Bitching does not help the cause, but definitely helps your mental and physical health.
My 5cts
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good post GMDS...
unfortunately these infants like to interfere with your private life. So I couldn't take it any longer and headed back to the EU environment. For me certainly a good choice. It's amazing how it feels to work for a company that is not run by infantile psychos.
Currently there are plenty of jobs in the western world. But the cadet/flight schools are again training fresh pilots at full steam. So I guess anybody who came to the conclusion that an expat life won't be it forever might have a better chance for a job in the civilized world now than in 3 years from now...
...ME, FE, EU, US...life is all about choices. Good luck!
unfortunately these infants like to interfere with your private life. So I couldn't take it any longer and headed back to the EU environment. For me certainly a good choice. It's amazing how it feels to work for a company that is not run by infantile psychos.
Currently there are plenty of jobs in the western world. But the cadet/flight schools are again training fresh pilots at full steam. So I guess anybody who came to the conclusion that an expat life won't be it forever might have a better chance for a job in the civilized world now than in 3 years from now...
...ME, FE, EU, US...life is all about choices. Good luck!
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Just have a look at that unbelievable VIDEO of a surveillance camera about dubai accidents - and ask Yourself: Do you (still) want your family on those suicidal roads?! certainly not me -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ptHRRWYrrw&NR
and my favourite the "Garhoud Classic"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34xVz...elated&search=
in any ways - the result could look as bad as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INFSg...elated&search=
besides: the EK F/O-s package is strictly crap by now and falls way behind other major airlines int the "civilized world"!
that's why desperation kicks in HR by now:
loads of new pilots recruited from "3rd world, South America with "special language skills (if any @ all) and even woman taking over the stick now
about 160 pilots resigned last year, and about30 are to resign after profit share - rumour that is ...
but if you know, that over a dozend alone were on a joint trip to London for the Jet Airways interview you've got the trend-vector i guess;
one of those guys had just finished his TRI training with EK, just to get those extra 15.000 $ plus for trainers pay with Jet Airways
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ptHRRWYrrw&NR
and my favourite the "Garhoud Classic"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34xVz...elated&search=
in any ways - the result could look as bad as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INFSg...elated&search=
besides: the EK F/O-s package is strictly crap by now and falls way behind other major airlines int the "civilized world"!
that's why desperation kicks in HR by now:
loads of new pilots recruited from "3rd world, South America with "special language skills (if any @ all) and even woman taking over the stick now
about 160 pilots resigned last year, and about30 are to resign after profit share - rumour that is ...
but if you know, that over a dozend alone were on a joint trip to London for the Jet Airways interview you've got the trend-vector i guess;
one of those guys had just finished his TRI training with EK, just to get those extra 15.000 $ plus for trainers pay with Jet Airways
Last edited by Cyberbird; 15th Mar 2007 at 09:00.
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"even woman taking over the stick now"
hehe i suggest that you go put your flame proof suit on now my friend. In case you aren't up to speed women have been flying aircraft just fine, and in lots of cases better than their male counterparts in lots of places in the world for years now. Just cause the ME is a bit behind the times in womens rights and employment dosen't mean they are inventing the wheel. That was jsut a little ignorant a comment imho.
hehe i suggest that you go put your flame proof suit on now my friend. In case you aren't up to speed women have been flying aircraft just fine, and in lots of cases better than their male counterparts in lots of places in the world for years now. Just cause the ME is a bit behind the times in womens rights and employment dosen't mean they are inventing the wheel. That was jsut a little ignorant a comment imho.
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anyone trying to understand the complexity of the ME gotta go back to the roots. I can recommend the "Sea of Faith": Islam and Christianity in the Medieval Mediterranean World.
The long, shared history of Christianity and Islam began, shortly after Islam emerged in the early seventh century A.D., with a question: Who would inherit the Greco-Roman world of the Mediterranean? Sprung from the same source—Abraham and the Revelation given to the Jews—the two faiths played out over the course of the next millennium what historian Stephen O’Shea calls “a sibling rivalry writ very large.” Their cataclysmic clashes on the battlefield were balanced by long periods of co-existence and mutual enrichment, and by the end of the sixteenth century the religious boundaries of the modern world were drawn.
Have fun.
The long, shared history of Christianity and Islam began, shortly after Islam emerged in the early seventh century A.D., with a question: Who would inherit the Greco-Roman world of the Mediterranean? Sprung from the same source—Abraham and the Revelation given to the Jews—the two faiths played out over the course of the next millennium what historian Stephen O’Shea calls “a sibling rivalry writ very large.” Their cataclysmic clashes on the battlefield were balanced by long periods of co-existence and mutual enrichment, and by the end of the sixteenth century the religious boundaries of the modern world were drawn.
Have fun.
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At the risk of being a pedant, Dr. H. is "Dr. HF Manager", not HR. Human Factors is actually meant to support human performance and increasingly focuses on the organisational threats and errors, to optimise the environment that humans have to work in.
I would buy tickets to see a manager here, actually identify some of the myriad organisational failures that exist. One of the reasons the JNB investigation got shuffled under the rug, I guess.
I would buy tickets to see a manager here, actually identify some of the myriad organisational failures that exist. One of the reasons the JNB investigation got shuffled under the rug, I guess.
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Aircargo330,
Well said...I salute you
For me...
If one is sick&tired in dealing with the same stuff...then it's time to leave and look for a happier place.
If one is contented...then I don't find any reason why to go and look for a better one.
Goodluck to all of us who are in pursuit of OUR OWN happiness
A6
Well said...I salute you
For me...
If one is sick&tired in dealing with the same stuff...then it's time to leave and look for a happier place.
If one is contented...then I don't find any reason why to go and look for a better one.
Goodluck to all of us who are in pursuit of OUR OWN happiness
A6
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I do agree EK needs a management style change and also an improvement of conditions compared to the world market. I can say that the issues brought up are valid and true. However, some comments are borderline offensive in this thread and others with regard to the mention of the nationalities of new joiners as if they are part of the problem. The South Americans and Malaysians and even the Americans have every right to be in Emirates as you do. They to have careers and family interests to take care of. Doesnt mean they are blind to the facts here. I am not. Lets not focus on them but address the real issue of the managment structure and policies that really need to be changed. An improvement is an improvement for everyone in the pilot body. Not just the 'first world' pilots.
Happy Landings. Mind the sand...
Happy Landings. Mind the sand...
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QNH1013 I wouldn't get to worried its just some guys being defensive and human nature. I recall getting an ear bashing 7 years ago from a long term EK captain claiming that the reason that Emirates salary terms and conditions would not change was because of "all u Ozzies and Kiwi's coming over to work"
I agree with your point on management change but with all the picket fence building going on it will take more than a wrecking ball to get the message across to the inner circle.
Valid points from every one I recall watching a movie where the bloke was asked if he was happy and the reply was ask me in a couple of years and I will tell you. To day its all about life style or lack of it and there are still ways of getting a life style in Dubai, you just have to work at it harder than what we used to.
I thought this was relevant Seaman Stains
I agree with your point on management change but with all the picket fence building going on it will take more than a wrecking ball to get the message across to the inner circle.
Valid points from every one I recall watching a movie where the bloke was asked if he was happy and the reply was ask me in a couple of years and I will tell you. To day its all about life style or lack of it and there are still ways of getting a life style in Dubai, you just have to work at it harder than what we used to.
I thought this was relevant Seaman Stains
the lack of man management, lack of communication (that is listening as well as transmitting), lack of forward thinking and the lack of ability to change management techniques as the company - EK changes
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what´s the problem
what is the problem with SouthAmerica, some people here refer to those countries in an offensive manner .......................yuddda, yuddda, yudda.................blurb..................
Sorry but i could not keep my mouth close
Put a lid on it dedeita - if you want to start a cultural punch-up do it by PM or email - he referred to South American pilots. Don't be so touchy. 4HP
Sorry but i could not keep my mouth close
Put a lid on it dedeita - if you want to start a cultural punch-up do it by PM or email - he referred to South American pilots. Don't be so touchy. 4HP
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I would say, it is the lack of support from management on the personal field, we are all humans and at some point we need a customized solution to our problems, and in the middle east you are an overpaid slave... we westerners are used to explain a situation to management and get a reply saying hpw you can you be helped or why they can't, and this is the most fustrating thing knowing they have the resources, but no will to help you.
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When the aircraft have to be parked at remote stands or parked in Seattle due to lack of crew and also the other issue with the training department that cant produce enough line ready guys then will somebody up in the managment chain make some increases with the existing package? EK has to compete with the world market now for pilots.
Is that too much wishfull thinking by me?
Is that too much wishfull thinking by me?
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The problem is that EK still thinks it's on a market on its own. At least the management, being far out of touch with reality, makes the dishdash bosses believe so. And that's what counts, not what the employees in the real world feel.
I actually wonder how much realiy check it needs for the owner to get sober. Keep discovering, at least this time it's for them to discover.
I actually wonder how much realiy check it needs for the owner to get sober. Keep discovering, at least this time it's for them to discover.
