New Policies at EK (The Green Dot Thread)
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Doesn't Vls stand for Velocity Lowest Selectable? I think so. That means airbus has determined the lowest safe speed which we as pilots should select. The are plenty of safe guards built into the system which keeps us from stalling the bird. Some might have little buzz words like "if my family were on board, good airmanship, safety, v1.23, blah blah blah. It all boils down to one indisputable fact, Vls is Vls. If you want to use it then use it. If not then don't.
Mckaj...if you don't like this boring thread then don't read it.
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Mckaj...if you don't like this boring thread then don't read it.
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Interesting subject..too many misconceptions
Vls(lowest selectable)...equal to:
1.13 VS at take off
1.18 VS when Flaps are retracted
1.23 VS when clean(stays there until lndg)
Vls is corrected for M effect to maintain 0.3g buffet margin
Vmc is taken into account
V2/1.05
1.05 Vmca max certified (take off)...in all other cases eq.or greater Vmcl
Green dot
NG.OUT ops.speed in clean confi
Conclusion 1:no problem to go below u r still protected as per above.
Conclusion 2: Grumpy(and some other EK giants of knowledge) u have no clue about the AB prots in normal law ......but I like your att.and crm practices ;maybe I should leave EY and join EK u all seem to be a great
buhch of people
cheers
Vls(lowest selectable)...equal to:
1.13 VS at take off
1.18 VS when Flaps are retracted
1.23 VS when clean(stays there until lndg)
Vls is corrected for M effect to maintain 0.3g buffet margin
Vmc is taken into account
V2/1.05
1.05 Vmca max certified (take off)...in all other cases eq.or greater Vmcl
Green dot
NG.OUT ops.speed in clean confiConclusion 1:no problem to go below u r still protected as per above.
Conclusion 2: Grumpy(and some other EK giants of knowledge) u have no clue about the AB prots in normal law ......but I like your att.and crm practices ;maybe I should leave EY and join EK u all seem to be a great
buhch of people
cheers
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Originally Posted by Schnowzer
WGU,
The speedbrake issue has nothing to do with Green Dot. If you leave the speedbrake out in many configurations it is possible to force the aircraft into Vls without turning at all. You have just removed lift from the wing so the min speed has increased. I think that argument is a red herring, we often have to modulate the amount of speedbrake selected to keep above Vls.
The speedbrake issue has nothing to do with Green Dot. If you leave the speedbrake out in many configurations it is possible to force the aircraft into Vls without turning at all. You have just removed lift from the wing so the min speed has increased. I think that argument is a red herring, we often have to modulate the amount of speedbrake selected to keep above Vls.
My main point was you increase drag when extending flaps as well as when going below Greed Dot. So there is no NEED to go below GD.
Just some thoughts of an FO that does not ask if he may use the speed breakes
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etihada
No, just stay where you are, there are enough doctors at EK already.
Good to have the absolutely correct values rubbed into our noses again, especially the remark about the superb AB system that "..corrects for M effect to maintain 0.3g buffet margin." It's so much fun to wait for that little inversion, wake turbulence, wind shear or microburst as these phenomenons set in so gently, with timely preanouncement.
Personally I prefer flying around with a sound margin. Might be because I am a less brave pilot than many around here, but hey ...
Let's just try to stay live.
No, just stay where you are, there are enough doctors at EK already.
Good to have the absolutely correct values rubbed into our noses again, especially the remark about the superb AB system that "..corrects for M effect to maintain 0.3g buffet margin." It's so much fun to wait for that little inversion, wake turbulence, wind shear or microburst as these phenomenons set in so gently, with timely preanouncement.
Personally I prefer flying around with a sound margin. Might be because I am a less brave pilot than many around here, but hey ...
Let's just try to stay live.
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tell me this, do you not fly below gd every other day, selecting flap UP at S speed when gd is 20..30 knots above... the fact of the matter is, those in EK do NOT understand GD, it has nothing to do with being BRAVE just to do with understanding. Indicated gd on the pfd in norm conditions is NOT best single eng speed... vls while being the lowest selectable velocity/speed still is 1.23vs1g X94% so yet again more protections built in. I am not saying that I myself condone flying at VLS or below, but reducing to below gd on an app to maintain a cda is acceptable, as long as it is controlled and the pf and pnf are in agreement and understand what and where they are.
Those who have flown other olde Airbuses have seen gd and VLS are nearly co located, whereas on the A33F the lift to drag profile is such that a big split is always evident.
p.s. How can you do an over weight landing if VFE next is below GD as is the case...well the QRH tells you select vfe next -5......
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chinawladi,
thanx 4 the advice ....wilco...no offence ment whatsoever just trying to put some light into the subject...afterall is not the speed that kills u its the sudden stop
thanx 4 the advice ....wilco...no offence ment whatsoever just trying to put some light into the subject...afterall is not the speed that kills u its the sudden stop
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The truth is that many FOs just do not have any basic knowledge, and quite a few captains as well... and most of them like to write on pprune...
I'm 99% agree with grumpy, I'd be happy to hear noting me about using the speedbrake, 'cos 90% of the cases we do not need them...
Here's another gum for you to chew: On an ILS if you follow 1 dot above the glide all the way down to runway, where you gonna touch the runway?
I'm 99% agree with grumpy, I'd be happy to hear noting me about using the speedbrake, 'cos 90% of the cases we do not need them...
Here's another gum for you to chew: On an ILS if you follow 1 dot above the glide all the way down to runway, where you gonna touch the runway?
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Originally Posted by what_goes_up
My 2 cents:
GD is not a safe speed but a minimum drag speed. But in my opinion there is no valid reason to go below GD. Slats are mainly produceing lift with a minimum amount of drag. If you can get a grip on AB drag graph you'll see that flying 10kt below GD produces about the same amount of drag as flying the same speed with slats out.
But there is another component to that. Although GD is not a safe speed, flying at or above protects you COMFORTABLY in any case. Try to fly below GD with the speed breakes out and do a 30 deg bank turn and you'll see that VLS is is about 1 or 2 kts below GD. So no major action needed by the engines. That is what really scares the pax and not the pitch build up by extending slats.
Conclusion:
It is perfectly safe to fly below GD but there is no need to and is therefor not recommended by the manufacturer.
Do not compare an AB with what you have learned on a conventional aircraft. GD is not minimum clean speed. But there is still reason not to fly below, although it's not a safety issue.
You safe more fuel with a decent desent planning than with flying below GD and THIS is a real issue within EK crews.
GD is not a safe speed but a minimum drag speed. But in my opinion there is no valid reason to go below GD. Slats are mainly produceing lift with a minimum amount of drag. If you can get a grip on AB drag graph you'll see that flying 10kt below GD produces about the same amount of drag as flying the same speed with slats out.
But there is another component to that. Although GD is not a safe speed, flying at or above protects you COMFORTABLY in any case. Try to fly below GD with the speed breakes out and do a 30 deg bank turn and you'll see that VLS is is about 1 or 2 kts below GD. So no major action needed by the engines. That is what really scares the pax and not the pitch build up by extending slats.
Conclusion:
It is perfectly safe to fly below GD but there is no need to and is therefor not recommended by the manufacturer.
Do not compare an AB with what you have learned on a conventional aircraft. GD is not minimum clean speed. But there is still reason not to fly below, although it's not a safety issue.
You safe more fuel with a decent desent planning than with flying below GD and THIS is a real issue within EK crews.
Totally agree with that! Thanks
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Originally Posted by fiddlair
Here's another gum for you to chew: On an ILS if you follow 1 dot above the glide all the way down to runway, where you gonna touch the runway?
...But if you follow the one-dot-high beam exACTly down to touchdown, you would be touching down EXACTLY at the normal touchdown point (plus the distance the G/S needle is displaced on the ILS display on board) past the "normal" touchdown point. (Stick with me now, folks) In other words, like, 0.25 cm's. (You would have to keep adjusting that "one dot high" with some fast finesse all the way to touchdown in the same way you would "home" to a beacon vs "track with wind-correction". Kapish? No? Get a beer and re-read it then, hombre.
HowEVER, if you kept yourself above the dot to a "cut-off" point somewhere along the approach-path, after which you would transition to the VASI's (etc), and kept yourself, say, 2 1/2 white for eg, then you will touch down long (as is a sadly over-practiced habit where the crew have only flown into vast tracts of endless runways all of their career).
I've seen crew proudly boast they did a great landing... (yes, habibi, but it was 2,000 feet beyond the touch-down zone). 
I'll guess, with a FIRM landing, say...6 to 800 feet.
Cheers,
R.D.
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Ray,
Nope, you'll hit the touchdown point off a slightly steeper approach and just need to flare a tad harder to get a nice touchdown unless you have a magic moving ILS antenna! Then you'll fall asleep in the bus back to CBC because of all the mental anguish caused from trying to workout what would happen. The car ride home would be horrific cos you would be reading the FOM to see whether or not you were able to do it with the A/Thrust engaged and without SVP authorisation. You'd get home, write your resignation letter, give back your free furniture and then have a good nights sleep for the first time in years without the alarm going off at 2am.
Nope, you'll hit the touchdown point off a slightly steeper approach and just need to flare a tad harder to get a nice touchdown unless you have a magic moving ILS antenna! Then you'll fall asleep in the bus back to CBC because of all the mental anguish caused from trying to workout what would happen. The car ride home would be horrific cos you would be reading the FOM to see whether or not you were able to do it with the A/Thrust engaged and without SVP authorisation. You'd get home, write your resignation letter, give back your free furniture and then have a good nights sleep for the first time in years without the alarm going off at 2am.
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Ray the short answer is : at the same point. Of course only theoretically, as you have to keep a slightly higher rate of descent( about 900 ftpmin depending on the weather and weight naturally) and you want to flare nicely. The long answer is: If we talk about FCOMs, and data from there, then you have to specify the type you are talking about when mentioning 14 and so on feet...
That is because on one aircraft 1 dot means 0.4 degree, on another 0.5 degree or maybe more and the ILS might be anything between 2.8 and 3.3 degrees I guess, so if the glideslope is 3.0 degrees, it's 5.2% which means you are probably 52 feet over the treshold (again theoretically) and the touchdown is 1000 ft from treshold.
You can maintain 2 or more dots above, and still catch the ground the same place.
That is because on one aircraft 1 dot means 0.4 degree, on another 0.5 degree or maybe more and the ILS might be anything between 2.8 and 3.3 degrees I guess, so if the glideslope is 3.0 degrees, it's 5.2% which means you are probably 52 feet over the treshold (again theoretically) and the touchdown is 1000 ft from treshold.
You can maintain 2 or more dots above, and still catch the ground the same place.
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Originally Posted by fiddlair
...If we talk about FCOMs, and data from there, then you have to specify the type you are talking about when mentioning 14 and so on feet...
Originally Posted by Ghostflyer
...and just need to flare a tad harder ...
...besides, whaddya worried over this for, mate, ...you always autoland! 
Peace, y'all.
~R.D.
1 dot is .15 degrees from memory, your figures look like Localiser figs....but,and I say again,but who the **** cares,,,fly glideslope......land..end of...
flying is an easy job people with "theories" try and make harder.
As for green dot ...dont try and out think the plane or the people who designed it,if you were that clever you would be doing their job , then you could get the system to do it the way you would like it to work....
Speed request below G/d, few knot, maybe 10 is a good number , discuss and select ,if you both feel comfortable......it won't fall out the sky by the way, if not put the bloody flaps out ,don't try and complicate it, 1.23Vs ,1.05., blah,blah, bull,blah..yawnnnnn .
Feels nicer with flap/slat out, lower nose attitude, actually helps in TMA to see other planes, also feels better for crew and pax not to have 8-9 pitch attitude...also 1 less thing to screw up, 1 less thing to explain at subsequent board of enquiry.......
My aim is to get as much money as possible from the buggers and to try and make the job as easy as it could or should be be.
flying is an easy job people with "theories" try and make harder.
As for green dot ...dont try and out think the plane or the people who designed it,if you were that clever you would be doing their job , then you could get the system to do it the way you would like it to work....
Speed request below G/d, few knot, maybe 10 is a good number , discuss and select ,if you both feel comfortable......it won't fall out the sky by the way, if not put the bloody flaps out ,don't try and complicate it, 1.23Vs ,1.05., blah,blah, bull,blah..yawnnnnn .
Feels nicer with flap/slat out, lower nose attitude, actually helps in TMA to see other planes, also feels better for crew and pax not to have 8-9 pitch attitude...also 1 less thing to screw up, 1 less thing to explain at subsequent board of enquiry.......
My aim is to get as much money as possible from the buggers and to try and make the job as easy as it could or should be be.
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Originally Posted by grumpy_bugger
Although much has been said about the falling standards of new recruits at EK I think it fair to acknowledge that in the current environment of rapid expansion this was inevitable and is a function of pilots available and the experience levels of the same.
As a result of this and personal observations over the past few years I have come up with a set of policies (that might be added to) that can be printed off and once read, be signed before the commencement of a flight duty.
1. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
2. When changing radio frequencies listen before transmitting to ensure you aren’t transmitting over someone else
3. When using the radio English is the language we use
4. Aircraft radios are not the appropriate medium to chat with your mates; I recommend the pub for this, or else the telephone
5. We do not deviate around ground returns from the weather radar; use the tilt function and look out the window
6. We do not both have the radar on maximum range at night whilst engrossed in the Sudoku; you will not see the top of the next CB
7. Don’t concentrate solely on the radar picture. Look out the window; its amazing what you will see
8. Don’t ask for block clearances in RVSM airspace. If you cant climb 2000’ stay where you are until you can
9. Check your FMS descent profile against altitude and distance to run. Inserting altitude and speed constraints into the flight plan changes the computed profile and its not always accurate
10. Don’t touch the speed brake without asking; its probably not necessary. If you end up in level flight with flap out you have probably cocked it up
11. It is permissible to fly clean below green dot speed
12. If ATC impose speed constraints requiring flap and there are many miles to run request extra track miles and maintain a higher (clean) speed
13. Do not accept speed constraints that are unreasonable or inconsistent with the characteristics of your aircraft or company SOPs
14. When acting as PNF and a configuration change command is given; check the speed and do it. There is no rule against selecting gear and flaps at the same time
15. If landing on a 4000m runway the touchdown zone is the same as a 2200m runway. Performing a “greaser” 1000m from the threshold might impress the punters but it doesn’t impress me
16. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
17. It is your job to give the Cabin Crew their hours not mine
18. In the CBC after a flight the prime objective is to get out of there as quickly as possible. If you want to chat with your mates get a taxi because I’m gone.
I have read and understood the above requirements and agree to abide by them.
First Officer _________________________ Date:
Signed: _____________________________
As a result of this and personal observations over the past few years I have come up with a set of policies (that might be added to) that can be printed off and once read, be signed before the commencement of a flight duty.
1. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
2. When changing radio frequencies listen before transmitting to ensure you aren’t transmitting over someone else
3. When using the radio English is the language we use
4. Aircraft radios are not the appropriate medium to chat with your mates; I recommend the pub for this, or else the telephone
5. We do not deviate around ground returns from the weather radar; use the tilt function and look out the window
6. We do not both have the radar on maximum range at night whilst engrossed in the Sudoku; you will not see the top of the next CB
7. Don’t concentrate solely on the radar picture. Look out the window; its amazing what you will see
8. Don’t ask for block clearances in RVSM airspace. If you cant climb 2000’ stay where you are until you can
9. Check your FMS descent profile against altitude and distance to run. Inserting altitude and speed constraints into the flight plan changes the computed profile and its not always accurate
10. Don’t touch the speed brake without asking; its probably not necessary. If you end up in level flight with flap out you have probably cocked it up
11. It is permissible to fly clean below green dot speed
12. If ATC impose speed constraints requiring flap and there are many miles to run request extra track miles and maintain a higher (clean) speed
13. Do not accept speed constraints that are unreasonable or inconsistent with the characteristics of your aircraft or company SOPs
14. When acting as PNF and a configuration change command is given; check the speed and do it. There is no rule against selecting gear and flaps at the same time
15. If landing on a 4000m runway the touchdown zone is the same as a 2200m runway. Performing a “greaser” 1000m from the threshold might impress the punters but it doesn’t impress me
16. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
17. It is your job to give the Cabin Crew their hours not mine
18. In the CBC after a flight the prime objective is to get out of there as quickly as possible. If you want to chat with your mates get a taxi because I’m gone.
I have read and understood the above requirements and agree to abide by them.
First Officer _________________________ Date:
Signed: _____________________________
Are you sure that this relates to EK? Cause it surrrrrrrrrre sounds like many of the F/O's I have to work with. Same sh*t, different comrads!
