Emirates EK201 to JFK - 3 Man crew again!
Join Date: Apr 2005
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F/O, upgrade and discretion
Someone made a remark that you won't find a lot of F/O's who will walk away from going into discretion. Just a reminder for those who will be faced with that:
The term is Commander's discretion. Therefore, F/O's should not be really worried about this. The only person who can decide about going into discretion is the commander.
On a practical point of view, this works in both ways:
1. F/O or augmenting crew doesn't want to go into discretion, but has the bad luck to fly with one of the known companymen. If the commander decides it would be ok to continue duty, the F/O has no right to walk of the flight. This would be extremely poor CRM from the Commander though.
2. F/O or augmenting crew thinks it's ok to continue but the commander says 'he' won't go into discretion. This is a no-brainer. The commander takes the decision for the crew, so everyone gets of.
Contacted:
I must disagree with you. I do think 11 minutes will make a difference. It's all about legality and setting a limit somewhere. Otherwise we could continue on and on, let's take another 10 minutes... and well, another extra 5 won't make a difference...
Also, the company is aware of the limitations, and should have crew ready ANYTIME.
How can a captain warn the company in advance, before getting to CBC? He has to consider the rest of the crew as well (including cabin crew), most of whom he'll only see for the first time at the CBC.
FOM:
What disturbes me the most about discretion in our FOM is that it's written to be used as a normal ops thing. In JAR-OPS, this extension is only meant to be used in unforesen circumstances. In my opinion, late connections or late boarding is not an unforeseen circumstance since the company can send the flight away without those passengers. Nothing like that in our FOM though...
MR8
The term is Commander's discretion. Therefore, F/O's should not be really worried about this. The only person who can decide about going into discretion is the commander.
On a practical point of view, this works in both ways:
1. F/O or augmenting crew doesn't want to go into discretion, but has the bad luck to fly with one of the known companymen. If the commander decides it would be ok to continue duty, the F/O has no right to walk of the flight. This would be extremely poor CRM from the Commander though.
2. F/O or augmenting crew thinks it's ok to continue but the commander says 'he' won't go into discretion. This is a no-brainer. The commander takes the decision for the crew, so everyone gets of.
Contacted:
I must disagree with you. I do think 11 minutes will make a difference. It's all about legality and setting a limit somewhere. Otherwise we could continue on and on, let's take another 10 minutes... and well, another extra 5 won't make a difference...
Also, the company is aware of the limitations, and should have crew ready ANYTIME.
How can a captain warn the company in advance, before getting to CBC? He has to consider the rest of the crew as well (including cabin crew), most of whom he'll only see for the first time at the CBC.
FOM:
What disturbes me the most about discretion in our FOM is that it's written to be used as a normal ops thing. In JAR-OPS, this extension is only meant to be used in unforesen circumstances. In my opinion, late connections or late boarding is not an unforeseen circumstance since the company can send the flight away without those passengers. Nothing like that in our FOM though...
MR8
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TCAS and ED must need our help with EK201 and the 8:11 walk off
Observations:
1. It's common knowledge that these guys are hired at EK because their Western expats who fill a box in the Management Matrix. Nobody faults them for topping off their respective retirement plans.
2. It's also understood that if they won't sign a particular FCI/memo, then the company will just find another expat that will.
3. Given the aviation background and airlines that these guys come from, you know that if they were still flying the line they wouldn't just blindly accept the forced discretion. But what are they going to do, not sign the FCI?
4. The company counts on the pilots never standing up for themselves.
5. Bending the rules will never change until a Western accident investigation team arrives in Dubai to investigate an accident/incident. Hopefully it never comes to that.
6. ED know's that 201 goes late the greater majority of the time. That's why he put the drop-dead time in the FCI. I also think that he's not happy with the forced discretion, but what's he going to do, not sign the FCI?
Conclusion
TCAS and ED need the pilots to stand up for themselves, in the interest of safety. When that happens, they'll in turn, be able to confidently approach their bosses, and fix the manning problem that is flight 201.
1. It's common knowledge that these guys are hired at EK because their Western expats who fill a box in the Management Matrix. Nobody faults them for topping off their respective retirement plans.
2. It's also understood that if they won't sign a particular FCI/memo, then the company will just find another expat that will.
3. Given the aviation background and airlines that these guys come from, you know that if they were still flying the line they wouldn't just blindly accept the forced discretion. But what are they going to do, not sign the FCI?
4. The company counts on the pilots never standing up for themselves.
5. Bending the rules will never change until a Western accident investigation team arrives in Dubai to investigate an accident/incident. Hopefully it never comes to that.
6. ED know's that 201 goes late the greater majority of the time. That's why he put the drop-dead time in the FCI. I also think that he's not happy with the forced discretion, but what's he going to do, not sign the FCI?
Conclusion
TCAS and ED need the pilots to stand up for themselves, in the interest of safety. When that happens, they'll in turn, be able to confidently approach their bosses, and fix the manning problem that is flight 201.
In other words, because TCAS and ED don't have the danglys to do their job, the EK flight crew are the only defence against company initiated fatigue issues on ultra long haul flights.
Because TCAS and ED don't have the integrity to do what they would have done at their previous employers, they expect the Emirates flight crews to take 'action', arguably in conflict with an FOM that has been worded to suit the management case.
Yet another sad and sorry mess.
And, by the way, in this case I do fault them for 'topping off their respective retirement plans'.
Because TCAS and ED don't have the integrity to do what they would have done at their previous employers, they expect the Emirates flight crews to take 'action', arguably in conflict with an FOM that has been worded to suit the management case.
Yet another sad and sorry mess.
And, by the way, in this case I do fault them for 'topping off their respective retirement plans'.
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Difference was in the previous lives they had an Onion.
One thing onions do that is good, is they are experts on the regulations and won't let management get away with bending or breaking them.
Here we have.......
One thing onions do that is good, is they are experts on the regulations and won't let management get away with bending or breaking them.
Here we have.......
"I have to say, I do not appreciate having to air our dirty laundry on a public website, however in the absence of any communication forum internally what choice do I have !"
Hmmm. well let see ? A telephone perhaps ?
Point taken though!
Hmmm. well let see ? A telephone perhaps ?
Point taken though!
Clearly a lot of groundwork has been done by EKL here. And this subject is relevant to all EK flight crew, so wind your neck in Tartan guy.
However 12h50m/3 pilots/2 = 2h08m. Not 1h38m.
But using a rest period of 12h50m this still comes out 2 minutes adrift of the required FTL at 15h08m rather than the required 15h10m.
Looking at the part of the FCI that mentions NAT qualification, the program as published by the office boys allows only 12 hours rest for all 3 crew members, so maxing out at 15h00m rather than the required 15h10m. (12/3/2=2)
The contents of my last paragraph clearly support EKLs case as Emirates have gone into print with a recommended rest pattern that if followed would not meet FTLs.
Is there an unambiguous definition, that favours the company interpretation, of when rest can start and finish? Or a variation that overrides all other factors in favour of the block time/crew members/2?
If not, then EKL seems to have a case.
However 12h50m/3 pilots/2 = 2h08m. Not 1h38m.
But using a rest period of 12h50m this still comes out 2 minutes adrift of the required FTL at 15h08m rather than the required 15h10m.
Looking at the part of the FCI that mentions NAT qualification, the program as published by the office boys allows only 12 hours rest for all 3 crew members, so maxing out at 15h00m rather than the required 15h10m. (12/3/2=2)
The contents of my last paragraph clearly support EKLs case as Emirates have gone into print with a recommended rest pattern that if followed would not meet FTLs.
Is there an unambiguous definition, that favours the company interpretation, of when rest can start and finish? Or a variation that overrides all other factors in favour of the block time/crew members/2?
If not, then EKL seems to have a case.
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Hey guys, Methinks one has to weigh his decision very carefully unless, of course, being on the war trip with the company and possessed through a burning wish to screw them up any way. If that's not the case, I believe a commander can only judge upon safety of the flight conduction after his check in and assessment of well being of his crew and the whole situation. I wouldn't put too much weight on the delay , yet I'd inform the dispatch of no intention to use my discretion resulting in possible intermediate landing (even if its Reykjavik), provided one doesn't want to use it. It'd be interesting to hear what they say, most probably the flight deck will be replaced. Another possible solution would be to fly faster in order to regain the delay. You guys are flying with a relieve pilot and at least can take rest. We were doing FDP of 13 hours without relieve pilot, three of us dying and fighting sleep during approach. That's soooo useless although legal, if you ask me. Even if there will be 10 pilots sitting in the cockpit for more than 12 hours without rest, all of them are useless. Here we go again money talks, doesn't it?
Best of luck folks.
Best of luck folks.
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Hey T.G. get real mate do you work in the office ....better still follow your own advice and see where a phone call gets you.
EK Lawyer was taking this road because taking the official line with the company will get you absolutely no where, that is unless you are Management and on a bonus retainer for increased productivity and other performance related issues that increase your pay packet.
The DXB-ICN-DXB operated 2 crew requiring discretion to complete the flight, did not here of the GCAA getting excited about that either,( can you see a pattern) sure company after nearly 12 months put 3 guys on the flight however last few weeks some flights back to 2 guys read this weeks company flight safety digest for a more in depth report from a 2 crew.
Unfortunately it will take such a review as the initiative will not come from the GCAA or Emirates before the FTLs are correctly applied and followed in this very commercial environment that we operate in.
Still reckon our FTL are rubbery and would make this guy really proud
EK Lawyer was taking this road because taking the official line with the company will get you absolutely no where, that is unless you are Management and on a bonus retainer for increased productivity and other performance related issues that increase your pay packet.
It is going to take a major incident that requires out side and Independent parties to exam our FTLs and how they are carried out before any constructive change occurs.
Commercial Department over rides Flt Ops and Flt Ops is along for the ride.
EK lawyer was making a point and giving a break down example that an outsider can follow and with a bit of luck our senior management.
Have you every tried to have a phone conversation with the D.C.P. on the above subject, or worse had B.M weigh into the conversation? They will give you the short shuffle and quote irrelevant passages and make references to CAP371 that would even have Einstein scratching his head wondering what the hell they were talking about.
Lets see the C.P. was happy to operate DXB-SEZ-DXB for a full season with a 3 crew that did not allow adequate rest, was pointed out on the first flight that the flt did not comply with FTL's...did not see the GCAA get too excited about that one or even our Chiefs.Commercial Department over rides Flt Ops and Flt Ops is along for the ride.
EK lawyer was making a point and giving a break down example that an outsider can follow and with a bit of luck our senior management.
Have you every tried to have a phone conversation with the D.C.P. on the above subject, or worse had B.M weigh into the conversation? They will give you the short shuffle and quote irrelevant passages and make references to CAP371 that would even have Einstein scratching his head wondering what the hell they were talking about.
The DXB-ICN-DXB operated 2 crew requiring discretion to complete the flight, did not here of the GCAA getting excited about that either,( can you see a pattern) sure company after nearly 12 months put 3 guys on the flight however last few weeks some flights back to 2 guys read this weeks company flight safety digest for a more in depth report from a 2 crew.
Hey heres the cruncher all the upper management did not see any problem with the "factoring" debacle funny how the UK CAA saw differently and that camel came back to Dubai this month.
Our FTLs are all most a replica of the UK CAA CAP371 , the most honest answer you will get will be from that part of the world. Unfortunately you will find them reluctant to weigh in to a slanging match how ever as the holder of a UK License you can make "inquiries" on the legalities of the above issues.
There are a few creative flights on our net work which would not stand up under the review of an Aviation Lawyer, and this will not happen until such time as an incident requires this. Our FTLs are all most a replica of the UK CAA CAP371 , the most honest answer you will get will be from that part of the world. Unfortunately you will find them reluctant to weigh in to a slanging match how ever as the holder of a UK License you can make "inquiries" on the legalities of the above issues.
Unfortunately it will take such a review as the initiative will not come from the GCAA or Emirates before the FTLs are correctly applied and followed in this very commercial environment that we operate in.
Still reckon our FTL are rubbery and would make this guy really proud
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Its simple Tartan Guy, when our management demonstrates even a modicum of honesty, transparency and professionalism, then we will not require a forum such as this to educate each other on legality issues.
Either you don't understand the problems or you are management, who of course are in denial of the problems.
Either you don't understand the problems or you are management, who of course are in denial of the problems.
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What is the feedback from the above named manager after personally flying this sequence of flights?
If he has not flown them then have him do so!
The saying; "a picture is worth a thousand words" might provide valuable input.
Those responsible for decision making and the resultant impact on Safety and Schedule reliability should be flying line Ops at a regular rate. Not so much for flying competency but for reality maintenance. "Paper" credentials are useless without current flight experience and prove nothing more than a learned ability to fog a mirror.
You'd think, aside from being a manager, that a VP/Chief Pilot would remember his early days as a line operator for Emirates.
If he has not flown them then have him do so!
The saying; "a picture is worth a thousand words" might provide valuable input.
Those responsible for decision making and the resultant impact on Safety and Schedule reliability should be flying line Ops at a regular rate. Not so much for flying competency but for reality maintenance. "Paper" credentials are useless without current flight experience and prove nothing more than a learned ability to fog a mirror.
You'd think, aside from being a manager, that a VP/Chief Pilot would remember his early days as a line operator for Emirates.
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UK Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme CHIRPS
The UK has a web link to a FTL article here which discusses as one of its topics FTLs and has the mechanism in place to make confidential reports
The UK Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme CHIRPS web site is here
The UK Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme CHIRPS web site is here
