UAE FIR RVSM...shall we say... ISSUES!!
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UAE FIR RVSM...shall we say... ISSUES!!
Why is it that so many flights are advised, before reaching the UAE FIR, "UAE has not received your ATC Flight Plan. Descend to...(sub FL290)"???
This is not an issue to one particular company. WHY, oh WHY does this continue to happen, AND ONLY with the UAE! (Well, OK, other FIR's, but NO WAY as many times as the UAE!).
This is NOT a shot at you worker-bee 'scope-crews. Methinks the problem is further up the food-chain within the bowels of the FIR unit. And these are regular, scheduled, routine flights!! One day they are FINE, yet the next "Hey, you can't come in above 290!".
What gives, UAE?? PLEASE FIX THIS!!
~R.D.
PS: Overall, a pretty good bunch of tin-pushers there, IMHO.
This is not an issue to one particular company. WHY, oh WHY does this continue to happen, AND ONLY with the UAE! (Well, OK, other FIR's, but NO WAY as many times as the UAE!).
This is NOT a shot at you worker-bee 'scope-crews. Methinks the problem is further up the food-chain within the bowels of the FIR unit. And these are regular, scheduled, routine flights!! One day they are FINE, yet the next "Hey, you can't come in above 290!".
What gives, UAE?? PLEASE FIX THIS!!
~R.D.
PS: Overall, a pretty good bunch of tin-pushers there, IMHO.
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Have received this response a couple times too.
Then heard a few other non-UAE airlines being told the same, including a British Airways aircraft travelling from somewhere in India to London being advised that he'll be cleared down below 290 through UAE airspace. The pilot sounded absolutely flabbergasted, to say the least-- and advised that the company operated that route 7 days a week on a repetitive flight plan.
Then heard a few other non-UAE airlines being told the same, including a British Airways aircraft travelling from somewhere in India to London being advised that he'll be cleared down below 290 through UAE airspace. The pilot sounded absolutely flabbergasted, to say the least-- and advised that the company operated that route 7 days a week on a repetitive flight plan.
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Here we go again. This issue has been discussed a number of times and to precis the whole thing; IT'S PUNISHMENT!!
The original intent, as shared with us by our UAE brethren, was to teach airlines and operators how to make and submit a correct flight plan, a very noble cause indeed, but one that is fraught with punishing the wrong people because noone knows where the fault lies until a proper investigation is undertaken.
The surrounding ATC units have also been punished as we continually have to orchestrate either a new level for "offending" aircraft or try to get them to refile through their operations. In an increasingly difficult and busy region, there is little excuse for this. By all means, fine the bad guys when they're caught out but don't punish in the air....ATC101!!
The obvious discrepency in UAE procedure is found in the fact that they allow aircraft who haven't filed a proper plan with them through their airspace even though they don't have other crucial elements that a FPL usually contains eg nav aids, RNP accuracy, etc. Why is RVSM picked on as the single thing that needs to be punished? Surely, if they are to be consistent, then they need to ban incorrectly planned a/c from their airspace.
This is a safety issue, regardless of what you will, no doubt, hear from our UAE friends. My advice is for all you affected pilots to officially complain to the UAE ATC authorities and get this silliness removed.
Oh, and for the record, in Muscat, we haven't noticed any improvement in flight planning. So much for RVSM punishment inspiring better practice.
The original intent, as shared with us by our UAE brethren, was to teach airlines and operators how to make and submit a correct flight plan, a very noble cause indeed, but one that is fraught with punishing the wrong people because noone knows where the fault lies until a proper investigation is undertaken.
The surrounding ATC units have also been punished as we continually have to orchestrate either a new level for "offending" aircraft or try to get them to refile through their operations. In an increasingly difficult and busy region, there is little excuse for this. By all means, fine the bad guys when they're caught out but don't punish in the air....ATC101!!
The obvious discrepency in UAE procedure is found in the fact that they allow aircraft who haven't filed a proper plan with them through their airspace even though they don't have other crucial elements that a FPL usually contains eg nav aids, RNP accuracy, etc. Why is RVSM picked on as the single thing that needs to be punished? Surely, if they are to be consistent, then they need to ban incorrectly planned a/c from their airspace.
This is a safety issue, regardless of what you will, no doubt, hear from our UAE friends. My advice is for all you affected pilots to officially complain to the UAE ATC authorities and get this silliness removed.
Oh, and for the record, in Muscat, we haven't noticed any improvement in flight planning. So much for RVSM punishment inspiring better practice.
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. . . if it is a punishment, it indeed is an unequal one, as it descriminates against non-UAE air carriers (I wonder whether they go through the same level of in other FIR's for similar flight planning sins . . . or perhaps there are never mistakes committed in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah??? 
). As soon as an Emirati aircraft is into UAE airspace he is probably in descent anyways.
Imagine the volume of sqawking if what goes around, comes around and Bahrain, Muscat, or Jeddah made Emirates, Etihad, or Air Arabia flights head down into the nether regions!
Common sense out with the baby and the bathwater.
). As soon as an Emirati aircraft is into UAE airspace he is probably in descent anyways. Imagine the volume of sqawking if what goes around, comes around and Bahrain, Muscat, or Jeddah made Emirates, Etihad, or Air Arabia flights head down into the nether regions!
Common sense out with the baby and the bathwater.
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Jack, wom't happen to UAE aitlines since we are perfect.. an bigger, better, our aircraft are shinier, our hosties prettier, our pilots are all aces, our pay and bonus is the best in the world, our career plan is just brilliant, ....
No, seriously, I wasn't aware of that problem since we actually do decent before UAE airspace. Then again, I don't get why one controller tells us to speed up, and the next wants us to reduce and give us extra miles for seperation...
But overall, I can't complain about most UAE controllers, they have to handle quite a lot of let's call it second or even third class guys going through their airspace, completely ignorant of procedures and lacking basic English knowledge...
MR8
No, seriously, I wasn't aware of that problem since we actually do decent before UAE airspace. Then again, I don't get why one controller tells us to speed up, and the next wants us to reduce and give us extra miles for seperation...
But overall, I can't complain about most UAE controllers, they have to handle quite a lot of let's call it second or even third class guys going through their airspace, completely ignorant of procedures and lacking basic English knowledge...
MR8
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Originally Posted by MR8
our hosties prettier,
is in the eye of the beholder, but . . . If you find your ladies so beautiful, what's with this Emirati airline industry fetish with dressing hosties in the most hideous uniforms in the region?
Either someone has sh!t for taste, or they don't know that's no way to treat a woman (or one airline in particular saw a great discount when they stumbled on surplus Mao Zedong suits). No wonder friends at UAE airlines complain that night stops are slam-click experiences.
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i once operated a flt from europe, through UAE airspace, and was descended to fl 290. despite my request for more info as to why we had to sescend, i was told they did not have the correct info on the flight plan.
i must say the operator has the responsibilty of filing the correct flight plan and the operating crew must ensure their flight plan has been filed correctly.
what puzzled me was that flying thorough western europe, eastern europe, accross syria,jordan,saudi arabia, bahrain, not one atc querried our flight plan. but when we came to the uae it was a big deal.
as to the attitude of "punishement" i just find that to be a bit childish.
the idea of us against them does not have a place in the busy aviation environment.
let us all try to do our jobs in the best of our abilty with respect and consideration to the others.
i must say the operator has the responsibilty of filing the correct flight plan and the operating crew must ensure their flight plan has been filed correctly.
what puzzled me was that flying thorough western europe, eastern europe, accross syria,jordan,saudi arabia, bahrain, not one atc querried our flight plan. but when we came to the uae it was a big deal.
as to the attitude of "punishement" i just find that to be a bit childish.
the idea of us against them does not have a place in the busy aviation environment.
let us all try to do our jobs in the best of our abilty with respect and consideration to the others.
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PUNISHMENT...???!!
PUNISHMENT???!!!
Are you SERIOUS?? PUNISHMENT?? What a load of B.S. THAT is! I'm NOT shooting the messenger, but whoever came up with that brilliant idea is seriously out of touch with reality.
PUNISHMENT?? ...yet another nail in the coffin.
PUNISHMENT?? That one smelly bucket is starting to get awfully full.
...Un-farking-amazing.
~R.D.
Are you SERIOUS?? PUNISHMENT?? What a load of B.S. THAT is! I'm NOT shooting the messenger, but whoever came up with that brilliant idea is seriously out of touch with reality.
PUNISHMENT?? ...yet another nail in the coffin.
PUNISHMENT?? That one smelly bucket is starting to get awfully full.
...Un-farking-amazing.
~R.D.
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This has happened twice to me and always coming out of Iranian airspace.The only thing common to both incidents was that we were running late and we had to adjust the eobt to stop the flightplan disappearing.The last time it happened the UAE controller( an aussie??)said that the ruling was from above!I told him that we did that route three times a week with the same two aircraft and the plane had been RVSM since it left the factory ,but he was powerless to make a dispensation.I always get the company to refile the plan now if we are even slightly late.
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The controllers hands are tied, direction comes from management and is not open for individual discretion.
If we are unsure of RVSM status we ask the pilot, if you say you are RVSM then that is good enough. In the UAE FIR they wont take that from the pilot, they must have a hard-copy of the flight plan with the correct info in the equipment field. If not, then down to FL270.
It does apply to all operators, I have been told to drop emirates flights (not as often, but it has happend) as well as others, there is no favoritism.
Example: London to Singapore FL410, has to go down to FL270 to transit the UAE FIR, then climbs back to FL410 on the other side. Go figure !!!
If we are unsure of RVSM status we ask the pilot, if you say you are RVSM then that is good enough. In the UAE FIR they wont take that from the pilot, they must have a hard-copy of the flight plan with the correct info in the equipment field. If not, then down to FL270.
It does apply to all operators, I have been told to drop emirates flights (not as often, but it has happend) as well as others, there is no favoritism.
Example: London to Singapore FL410, has to go down to FL270 to transit the UAE FIR, then climbs back to FL410 on the other side. Go figure !!!
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zo dann. ze werd von uae kontrol ist:
"use proper icao atc komunications und file properly!"
Picture that was posted with good intent but certain to cause offense to certain parties removed. 4HP
. . . ve have our ways to make you komply, ya?
"use proper icao atc komunications und file properly!"
Picture that was posted with good intent but certain to cause offense to certain parties removed. 4HP
. . . ve have our ways to make you komply, ya?
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sorry fellas but my hands are tied, no flt plan no RVSM...personally I don't like it coming from Oz where we were allowed (eventually) to elicit this information directly from the horses mouth. As much as possible UAE let the a/c know asap so that they can contact their companies to submit new plans before they arrive at the FIR boundary.
from my limited experience the sub continent is the largest source of dud flt plans.
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May I suggest the problem could be at your end, Funk?
When we file the same flight plan to the same adresses day after day, and then suddenly UAE (only) does not receive it?
A flight from London to Singapore cannot fly for 13 hrs through X numbers of FIRs without a filed flight plan.
Maybe your management should look into local ATC routines rather than implement juvenile punitive procedures?
When we file the same flight plan to the same adresses day after day, and then suddenly UAE (only) does not receive it?
A flight from London to Singapore cannot fly for 13 hrs through X numbers of FIRs without a filed flight plan.
Maybe your management should look into local ATC routines rather than implement juvenile punitive procedures?
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Not only may you suggest, OmanAir, you may confidently assert that the problem is on the UAE side. And Funk, when you say that you try to give a/c as much warning as possible, you should actually say that you advise the surrounding ATC units to descend the a/c by your boundary, allowing us to do your dirty work. That can add a lot of stress at times, especially when you have no idea if the transmission of the FPL gets through or at what time it will make it to you.
And perhaps you'd let us know why, even if you don't get a correctly filed FPL, you let a/c sail through your airspace without ever knowing that they're properly equipped with the right nav aids, TCAS, RNP, etc,etc,etc? Only the RVSM element gets picked on and that's hardly the right piece of knowledge to possess if some Russian fly-by-night transits your airspace by dead reckoning
And perhaps you'd let us know why, even if you don't get a correctly filed FPL, you let a/c sail through your airspace without ever knowing that they're properly equipped with the right nav aids, TCAS, RNP, etc,etc,etc? Only the RVSM element gets picked on and that's hardly the right piece of knowledge to possess if some Russian fly-by-night transits your airspace by dead reckoning
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Not true about not taking into account RNP and TCAS status of aircraft. If it is known that an aircraft doesn't have a working TCAS it is either grounded in UAE or refused entry into the FIR. As for RNP we are allowed to ask the status and to take the pilot's word for it re their approval. If it becomes apparent that an aircraft is not RNAV or RNP capable eg can't fly a STAR then it is grounded in UAE. No point you flyers complaining here we can't do anything about it. Talk to your company to start pressuring UAE to fix it's com centre. Personally I agree there is a problem there but we have heard excuses from pilots like their departure point doesn't have aftn. Heard of a fax mate? As for adjoining units it is a pain for us to use them to do our work for them because it causes disharmony and I can only suggest an early release to me and I will tell the aircraft. Sorry for you overflying on long hauls and being descended but for us ATCOs we like having our jobs more than we like you having yours.