Why is RT in ME so bad
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Why is RT in ME so bad
Just a question from a frustrated ATCer...
When did readbacks and callsign readbacks with clearences become optional? and why when a/c hold inbound to dubai do they not listen out for instructions about decent heading holding etc?
I ask this as the last night shift I worked there were over 80 times I had to chase a/c up for a readback or a callsign with the readback. It may sound like a trivial thing but with emirates gulfair saudia etc etc all operating similar numbered callsigns at the same time on the same route confusion is very easy. Scary to think of the consequecnes if decent issued to UAE19 only to have UAE9 (being held up due traffic below) read it back with no callsign..... As far as not listening during the sequence not only does it increase the workload of the atc but also holds up the other a/c behind and above you. Having to chase an a/c 8 times for decent/vectors is not only frustrating but dangerous as well.
This is a serious question I want to find out about and not "having a go" a pilots. I understand that some ATC can be very lax when it comes RT and that needs to be sorted out as well. But that can be sorted out by leaning across to the guy next to me and getting a readback etc. Bit harder to do with the airlines as other then here we have no real way to find out things.
And before we hop on the "must be the rusian/asian/middle eastern language problem" of the 83 times I had to get a readback or a callsign with the readback 70 of them were from english/australian/americian/canadian etc pilots. The others were were middle eastern pilots. russian/asian were best. Again this is not a dig at pilots but a genuine concern for your future and my licence..
thanks
When did readbacks and callsign readbacks with clearences become optional? and why when a/c hold inbound to dubai do they not listen out for instructions about decent heading holding etc?
I ask this as the last night shift I worked there were over 80 times I had to chase a/c up for a readback or a callsign with the readback. It may sound like a trivial thing but with emirates gulfair saudia etc etc all operating similar numbered callsigns at the same time on the same route confusion is very easy. Scary to think of the consequecnes if decent issued to UAE19 only to have UAE9 (being held up due traffic below) read it back with no callsign..... As far as not listening during the sequence not only does it increase the workload of the atc but also holds up the other a/c behind and above you. Having to chase an a/c 8 times for decent/vectors is not only frustrating but dangerous as well.
This is a serious question I want to find out about and not "having a go" a pilots. I understand that some ATC can be very lax when it comes RT and that needs to be sorted out as well. But that can be sorted out by leaning across to the guy next to me and getting a readback etc. Bit harder to do with the airlines as other then here we have no real way to find out things.
And before we hop on the "must be the rusian/asian/middle eastern language problem" of the 83 times I had to get a readback or a callsign with the readback 70 of them were from english/australian/americian/canadian etc pilots. The others were were middle eastern pilots. russian/asian were best. Again this is not a dig at pilots but a genuine concern for your future and my licence..
thanks
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
You're right. The only thing is, it often degenerates down to neither the pilot nor the ATCO using the callsign although this worst case is usually not with UAE but with the Indians and other 3rd world ATC wallies.
Very disappointing to hear the cream of western aviators picking up the habit.
And what's with everyone using the new ICAO R/T phrase:
"Any chance of...... blah blah (level/direct to/speed change)
Any chance???? WTF???
I blame the yanks. They always start this kind of thing, eg starting a readback with:
"Okaaaaaaayyyyy, understand direct to...... blah blah" (without a callsign) Now everyone does it.
Or...... :
"Charlie charlie..." WTF???
Do you have to wobble your head when you say that???
Very disappointing to hear the cream of western aviators picking up the habit.
And what's with everyone using the new ICAO R/T phrase:
"Any chance of...... blah blah (level/direct to/speed change)
Any chance???? WTF???
I blame the yanks. They always start this kind of thing, eg starting a readback with:
"Okaaaaaaayyyyy, understand direct to...... blah blah" (without a callsign) Now everyone does it.
Or...... :
"Charlie charlie..." WTF???
Do you have to wobble your head when you say that???
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
Pedantry, or is it pedantism? Actually, it can be both - being a pedant, I've looked them up.
Seriously, though, there is a time and a place for both, and this I think is one of those times and places.
I do not envy you having to attempt it, though.
Best of luck.
"Charlie Charlie"? What's the problem with that? What does it mean? What do you want it to mean? Anything you like, as far as I can understand.
Seriously, though, there is a time and a place for both, and this I think is one of those times and places.
I do not envy you having to attempt it, though.
Best of luck.
"Charlie Charlie"? What's the problem with that? What does it mean? What do you want it to mean? Anything you like, as far as I can understand.
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
"Charlie Charlie"? What's the problem with that? What does it mean? What do you want it to mean? Anything you like, as far as I can understand.
I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear man, will still be an idiot.
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
Come on lads, surely you know the rule of thumb, the longer you have been flying, the worse your R/T becomes. Oh and don't forget you have to make your voice sound really deep and speak painfully slowly every time you press the PTT switch.
My personal favorite (you hear it all the time) 'XXX/XXX Airborne', so much for the SID name and altitude passing let alone what runway you're off. I guess though we are all lucky that the callsign was passed.
My personal favorite (you hear it all the time) 'XXX/XXX Airborne', so much for the SID name and altitude passing let alone what runway you're off. I guess though we are all lucky that the callsign was passed.
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
OK, Desert Whine, exactly what does Charlie Charlie mean? You asked the question.
Winston Churchill - limp wrist? You are more drink than you thunk you are.
Winston Churchill - limp wrist? You are more drink than you thunk you are.
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CC = solved
After just three postings this thread is turning into "charlie, charlie" blah, blah.
jees`.
I do understand Ali Bin Somewhere well, it doesnīt matter if you are tired or you have a low moral just do a professional ATC thatīs what everybody can expect from you, there might be the safety of a flight affected. Everyone is working for his own professionality, and as the skies are becoming more and more crowded we need some discipline. There are also the ATC guys working the nights, my opinion only.
Found the following regarding the "Charlie Charlie".
"CC Means "I understand." CC is an abbreviation for "click click," Comes from a pilot habit of pressing the mic button to confirm an order rather than actually replying."
http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/guides/dictionary.shtml
hope this helps
cheerio Miss Sophie
jees`.
I do understand Ali Bin Somewhere well, it doesnīt matter if you are tired or you have a low moral just do a professional ATC thatīs what everybody can expect from you, there might be the safety of a flight affected. Everyone is working for his own professionality, and as the skies are becoming more and more crowded we need some discipline. There are also the ATC guys working the nights, my opinion only.
Found the following regarding the "Charlie Charlie".
"CC Means "I understand." CC is an abbreviation for "click click," Comes from a pilot habit of pressing the mic button to confirm an order rather than actually replying."
http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/guides/dictionary.shtml
hope this helps
cheerio Miss Sophie
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
Sorry DES your quote
I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear man, will still be an idiot.
It should have been (factual to a woman, see the capital corrections)
I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear WOman, will still be UGLY!
Sorry to be specific, but it was a classic.
Rgds cw
I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear man, will still be an idiot.
It should have been (factual to a woman, see the capital corrections)
I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear WOman, will still be UGLY!
Sorry to be specific, but it was a classic.
Rgds cw
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
Obfus..., don't get so touchy. As the man said at the beginning of this thread, this is not meant to be an ATC vs Pilot thing.
This is becoming a genuine concern for ATC's. The pain in the butt readback is something that has to be done according to our company and GCAA procedure. We would love it if you could fly 250kts to 6 miles, you are probably "able" to, but not allowed to, because your company has rules and regs that if broken EVEN ONCE get you drinking tea in the chief pilots office. In the same way, if I let a lack of a readback slip every now and then and something goes wrong, I am the one suspended pending investigation and taking the consequences while the pilot is already on his next leg to wherever.
Regarding the EGKK single runway business. I agree, they are good at it and good for them. Once again, we are bound by rules and also an ever changing load of procedures as the airport here changes almost every two weeks during the different stages of construction. Unfortunately the pilots are not aware of the half of it, maybe that is also half the problem. Please take that into account next time you are judging the performance of the controllers here.
This is becoming a genuine concern for ATC's. The pain in the butt readback is something that has to be done according to our company and GCAA procedure. We would love it if you could fly 250kts to 6 miles, you are probably "able" to, but not allowed to, because your company has rules and regs that if broken EVEN ONCE get you drinking tea in the chief pilots office. In the same way, if I let a lack of a readback slip every now and then and something goes wrong, I am the one suspended pending investigation and taking the consequences while the pilot is already on his next leg to wherever.
Regarding the EGKK single runway business. I agree, they are good at it and good for them. Once again, we are bound by rules and also an ever changing load of procedures as the airport here changes almost every two weeks during the different stages of construction. Unfortunately the pilots are not aware of the half of it, maybe that is also half the problem. Please take that into account next time you are judging the performance of the controllers here.
Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
There really isn't any excuse but laziness in sloppy R/T. It will hit the fan thought when someone spears it in because of mis-coms. We've seen it before(Tenerife comes to mind).
Ali Bin - keep hassling them for a readback - as frustrating as it is - maybe if all the ATCs insisted then some learning may occur ( you guys have to babysit sometimes)
Ali Bin - keep hassling them for a readback - as frustrating as it is - maybe if all the ATCs insisted then some learning may occur ( you guys have to babysit sometimes)
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
I understand that fatigue is a big issue. ATC also has the same problem with max time at the console, understaffed for alot of shifts, poor equipment etc etc and this is compounded by haveing to chase for standard readbacks that are part of AIP and all pilot training.
Just a few things to consider...
With the 83 "chase ups" the other night each of exchanges should have been 2 transmissions (30 sec tops) but the majority were about 6 (about 2 min). one of the longest took 3-4min to find out if the a/c had heard the frequency change. May not sound like much but when there are 1200+ a/c entering your airspace every day (or 1 every 1.2 min) and they are not spread evenly due to the pleasures of cluster scheduling, that takes up ALOT of time at critical moments when we should be concentateing on more important tasks.
We are responsible for our own actions. So when 2 a/c have a break down of seperation, or god forbid hit, at the subsequent investigation or court of enquiry "I was fatigued" wont cut it. Yes the board will get there and say "operator/atc manager must ensure that there are more break for staff so they are not fatigued", but when all the holes in the swiss cheese line up you will still be dead and I'll still be in jail all because we were "too fatigued" to get or give a readback.
Just a few things to consider...
With the 83 "chase ups" the other night each of exchanges should have been 2 transmissions (30 sec tops) but the majority were about 6 (about 2 min). one of the longest took 3-4min to find out if the a/c had heard the frequency change. May not sound like much but when there are 1200+ a/c entering your airspace every day (or 1 every 1.2 min) and they are not spread evenly due to the pleasures of cluster scheduling, that takes up ALOT of time at critical moments when we should be concentateing on more important tasks.
We are responsible for our own actions. So when 2 a/c have a break down of seperation, or god forbid hit, at the subsequent investigation or court of enquiry "I was fatigued" wont cut it. Yes the board will get there and say "operator/atc manager must ensure that there are more break for staff so they are not fatigued", but when all the holes in the swiss cheese line up you will still be dead and I'll still be in jail all because we were "too fatigued" to get or give a readback.
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
03R,
Yeah, was a bit touchy last night( fatigued?!) so I've deleted my post. I do wonder how with the current congestion the massive expansion is all going to work, not just ATC issues but (shortage of) engineers, pilots, equipment (broken baggage belts et al). Cabin Crew bear the brunt of pax wrath and are treated like slaves by the company. Doesn't bode too well.
Yeah, was a bit touchy last night( fatigued?!) so I've deleted my post. I do wonder how with the current congestion the massive expansion is all going to work, not just ATC issues but (shortage of) engineers, pilots, equipment (broken baggage belts et al). Cabin Crew bear the brunt of pax wrath and are treated like slaves by the company. Doesn't bode too well.
Last edited by Obfuscation; 16th Jan 2006 at 07:44.
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
Well, yes that classic quote from Churchill is correct, my version was a little different. That's why I said I was para-phrasing him!!!
But how would I know what CC means, I was the one who asked in the first place!!
Apparently CC comes from the Mexicans who say, "Si, Si..." when they mean "Yes".
But how would I know what CC means, I was the one who asked in the first place!!
Apparently CC comes from the Mexicans who say, "Si, Si..." when they mean "Yes".
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
i have to admit that before i came to the middle east i never heard about this Famous "charlie charlie", but long time ago i did my radio course, maybe it change in between...
I remenber the standard "afirmative" but not the "charlie-charlie.."
Letīs open the jeppesen..
I remenber the standard "afirmative" but not the "charlie-charlie.."
Letīs open the jeppesen..
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
"Charlie Charlie" was most frequently used when on HF and the connection is bad so probably not widely used until one got into Indian air space and points further East or possibly mid Pacific. Meanwhile the pax down the back will be happily chatting all around the world on interference free 'phones stowed in their arm rest!!!
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Re: Why is RT in ME so bad
ali
fatigue, low moral, bad rostering, no vacation and all the other nice sideeffects of modern aviation are by no means an excuse for what you criticise, i truly agree with that. they are merely a possible explanation. it's entirely up to the professional to anticipate such mistakes and your thread helps, at least i will be more attentive in the future.
the thing that bugs me, is that above phenomenons are never adressed at official meetings, symposiums, courses, etc. etc. it's just too sensitive to the allmighty managers and might lead to having to assume responsibilities.
it's up to us to bring up such problems, again my compliment for doing so, and to counteract as pro's as good as we can. the designated postholders in their cosy armchairs will not.
ttn
fatigue, low moral, bad rostering, no vacation and all the other nice sideeffects of modern aviation are by no means an excuse for what you criticise, i truly agree with that. they are merely a possible explanation. it's entirely up to the professional to anticipate such mistakes and your thread helps, at least i will be more attentive in the future.
the thing that bugs me, is that above phenomenons are never adressed at official meetings, symposiums, courses, etc. etc. it's just too sensitive to the allmighty managers and might lead to having to assume responsibilities.
it's up to us to bring up such problems, again my compliment for doing so, and to counteract as pro's as good as we can. the designated postholders in their cosy armchairs will not.
ttn