What would improve EK?
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What would improve EK?
With no small number of threads discussing the woes of working for EK maybe a closer look at the problems and more particularly the solutions is due.
The rot probably started when (T)CK waded through the Ts & Cs of the training department leading to many resignations particularly from Airbus TCs. In time the company took note of this and revised the package.
The message I guess is that eventually the company will notice people 'voting with their feet' but nothing less.
At the pilots meeting of early 2004 AAR announced that all pilots are replaceable and the company has a backlog of 3000 applications waiting to do that replacing. Presumably his department still believe this as the rate of resignations is not reducing with at least three Airbus Captains having given notice this month. The resignations started becoming significant about a year after AAR made his speech which is just about long enough for people to decide where to go and then make it happen.
The next notable event was the 'cost neutral' revision to the productivity package involving no credit for leave, simulator and ground duties. The consequence being that crew can and generally will fly up to the monthly productivity level at which overtime payment will start but the roster period will include several days of leave and /or other duties leading to the monthly flying duties being compressed into short time frames and the expected time for R & R being replaced by the unaccredited duties. To put it another way any month which includes non flying duties will involve min rest/max duties with no reward for working above established levels.
For me this productivity change was significant with fatigue/lifestyle issues and financial penalties. An easy fix would be a return to the previous system which was proven and fair.
However it is only one part of a list of cynical and ill judged changes made to our employment package with mostly minimal benefit to the company but bringing dissatisfaction to the pilot group.
My guess is that the longer the company avoid recognising these issues the greater the medium and long term penalties will be. Not just financially but in recognition as an employer of choice and ultimately as an Airline of choice to the consumer. Unconfirmed reports from scheduling indicate that flights are now being cancelled due to crew shortages.
Coming from someone who would rather stay than go if at all possible, what would improve our job at little or perhaps some cost to the company?
A 20% payrise is taken as read.
The rot probably started when (T)CK waded through the Ts & Cs of the training department leading to many resignations particularly from Airbus TCs. In time the company took note of this and revised the package.
The message I guess is that eventually the company will notice people 'voting with their feet' but nothing less.
At the pilots meeting of early 2004 AAR announced that all pilots are replaceable and the company has a backlog of 3000 applications waiting to do that replacing. Presumably his department still believe this as the rate of resignations is not reducing with at least three Airbus Captains having given notice this month. The resignations started becoming significant about a year after AAR made his speech which is just about long enough for people to decide where to go and then make it happen.
The next notable event was the 'cost neutral' revision to the productivity package involving no credit for leave, simulator and ground duties. The consequence being that crew can and generally will fly up to the monthly productivity level at which overtime payment will start but the roster period will include several days of leave and /or other duties leading to the monthly flying duties being compressed into short time frames and the expected time for R & R being replaced by the unaccredited duties. To put it another way any month which includes non flying duties will involve min rest/max duties with no reward for working above established levels.
For me this productivity change was significant with fatigue/lifestyle issues and financial penalties. An easy fix would be a return to the previous system which was proven and fair.
However it is only one part of a list of cynical and ill judged changes made to our employment package with mostly minimal benefit to the company but bringing dissatisfaction to the pilot group.
My guess is that the longer the company avoid recognising these issues the greater the medium and long term penalties will be. Not just financially but in recognition as an employer of choice and ultimately as an Airline of choice to the consumer. Unconfirmed reports from scheduling indicate that flights are now being cancelled due to crew shortages.
Coming from someone who would rather stay than go if at all possible, what would improve our job at little or perhaps some cost to the company?
A 20% payrise is taken as read.
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You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. YOU CAN GIVE EK MONEY BUT THEY STILL CANNOT THINK.
No matter what ANYONE says, the coggs on the airline and on DUBAIS GROWTH (property) IS ON A THREAD OF HANGINING IN THERE. The oil is on its way out and will soon mean the Expat will be on their way out too (next 2 decades). Hey PAX, you wouldn't believe how may of your flights are almost cancelled due to lack of crews, although EK HR think they are over crewed....SO what about the 23 OPEN flights XMAS DAY with NO crews to fly them as YET...4 days to go..
EK, you are the machine that KEEPS DUBAI FED AND ALIVE, STOP DOING THE HEAD IN THE SAND ACT< IT IS IS IS > falling apart. ACT NOW OR SUFFER EXTRA AS WE CAN SAY, WE TOLD YOU SO, HERE. YOU EMPLOYED PEOPLE FROM PLACES WHERE THIS HAPPENED BEFORE (the knowledgable world from where you get your experience). DON'T LISTEN TO THE MIDDLE MANAGER MONEY GRABBERS, YOUR LAST CHANCE IS, VERY VERY NIGH...
beware< you have SO been previously warned!!! YOUR TIME TO ACT IS NOW, I ASK NOTHING INPAYMENT FOR YOUR BEST ADVICE, DONT GET CAUGHT, YOU ARE BEING TRAPPED!!
LET commercial come up with a plan/policy, they seem to be the only EK competent and productive think tank EK has.
No matter what ANYONE says, the coggs on the airline and on DUBAIS GROWTH (property) IS ON A THREAD OF HANGINING IN THERE. The oil is on its way out and will soon mean the Expat will be on their way out too (next 2 decades). Hey PAX, you wouldn't believe how may of your flights are almost cancelled due to lack of crews, although EK HR think they are over crewed....SO what about the 23 OPEN flights XMAS DAY with NO crews to fly them as YET...4 days to go..
EK, you are the machine that KEEPS DUBAI FED AND ALIVE, STOP DOING THE HEAD IN THE SAND ACT< IT IS IS IS > falling apart. ACT NOW OR SUFFER EXTRA AS WE CAN SAY, WE TOLD YOU SO, HERE. YOU EMPLOYED PEOPLE FROM PLACES WHERE THIS HAPPENED BEFORE (the knowledgable world from where you get your experience). DON'T LISTEN TO THE MIDDLE MANAGER MONEY GRABBERS, YOUR LAST CHANCE IS, VERY VERY NIGH...
beware< you have SO been previously warned!!! YOUR TIME TO ACT IS NOW, I ASK NOTHING INPAYMENT FOR YOUR BEST ADVICE, DONT GET CAUGHT, YOU ARE BEING TRAPPED!!
LET commercial come up with a plan/policy, they seem to be the only EK competent and productive think tank EK has.
Last edited by critical winge; 20th Dec 2005 at 21:21.
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I don't think a pay rise will solve the problem for those people who are affected. It may act as a diversion but ultimately there has to be a realization that the rate Emirates is growing , management is is paying lip service to Safety and Training, while going full throttle with its commercial agenda. All commercial decisions are based on the "acceptable risk" not realizing that all the their great marketing and branding will go down the tubes if Emirates has major accident or incident.
What ever safety culture remains, is slowly eroding at the expense of optimizing the operation. This includes reducing the number of days spent being trained at the Aviation College and more weight given to "home study" and the crew signing an acknowledgement that the course has been undertaken. ("tick in the box") This course of action has partly been taken due to shortage of Trg Personnel including Ground Instructors and Instructor Pilots. and also shortage of classrooms. Plus it releases line crew to fly more instead spending spending precious time at refreshers . Same story is with CRM courses and refresher courses. The Initial 3 dayCRM course conducted outside Dubai in Hatta has long been phased out and the refresher course usually conducted over a day will now be incorported during the recurrent PPC and the candidate will have deemed to have undergone " a crm refresher" and another "tick in the box " in fulfilling another GCAA requirement.
The safety culture and training environment is slowly but surely playing second fiddle to Emirates higher managements crusade against high costs and a constant pressure on middle managers to deliver the goods at a lower cost. No one is man enough to put their foot down and put the brakes on the deteorating safety culture which is ultimately transalating to miimal training due to shortage of experienced training staff including TRg captains. This is partly due to the poor package( salary as well a life style) being offered to those already in the Training departrment. In experienced staff are being forced to undertake duties that they would normally be carried out by more senior TRE.( Type Rating Examiners) Due to shortage of Instructors junior Type Rating Instructors (TRI)are conducting upgrade loft sessions and TRI s also conducting initial flights with trainees. These duties were normally conducted by a TRE who has a wealth of experience as an Instructor and examiner on the aircraft type. This not only provided a higher level of safety but also had a greater possibility of imparting their wealth of experience.
Due the shortsightedness of the management and the poor package offered to its Trg Staff , the Trg department has not been able to attract experienced Captains to join and share their experience, instead Captswith only 6 months experience are being offered positions in the Trg department. There is no doubt that these junior Capts conduct themselves well, but do deserve more time to conslidate on the line before joining the Trg department.
Communications between the mangement and the line is another reason morale is low. This is a serious issue and needs to be addressed. A fleet update by the SVP ops is insufficient. Regular meetings taking into confidence and being more transparent in dealings with the Pilot group is the need of the hour. Issues need to tackled and answers given and grievences addressed.
The issue is serious enough for some one who is expected to be with Emirates long term. However SVP ops are aware that their role with Emirates has a limited time span and it is their best interest is to toe the offical line while talking about safety standards while continually chipping at cost reductions that will have major negative repurcussions on the training and safety culture when they have long gone.
With high fuel cost and ticket prices in real terms going down , we all realize that its is struggle to manage the business profitably. Emirates management seeme to be struggling a bit too hard in the cost cutting area.
BM
What ever safety culture remains, is slowly eroding at the expense of optimizing the operation. This includes reducing the number of days spent being trained at the Aviation College and more weight given to "home study" and the crew signing an acknowledgement that the course has been undertaken. ("tick in the box") This course of action has partly been taken due to shortage of Trg Personnel including Ground Instructors and Instructor Pilots. and also shortage of classrooms. Plus it releases line crew to fly more instead spending spending precious time at refreshers . Same story is with CRM courses and refresher courses. The Initial 3 dayCRM course conducted outside Dubai in Hatta has long been phased out and the refresher course usually conducted over a day will now be incorported during the recurrent PPC and the candidate will have deemed to have undergone " a crm refresher" and another "tick in the box " in fulfilling another GCAA requirement.
The safety culture and training environment is slowly but surely playing second fiddle to Emirates higher managements crusade against high costs and a constant pressure on middle managers to deliver the goods at a lower cost. No one is man enough to put their foot down and put the brakes on the deteorating safety culture which is ultimately transalating to miimal training due to shortage of experienced training staff including TRg captains. This is partly due to the poor package( salary as well a life style) being offered to those already in the Training departrment. In experienced staff are being forced to undertake duties that they would normally be carried out by more senior TRE.( Type Rating Examiners) Due to shortage of Instructors junior Type Rating Instructors (TRI)are conducting upgrade loft sessions and TRI s also conducting initial flights with trainees. These duties were normally conducted by a TRE who has a wealth of experience as an Instructor and examiner on the aircraft type. This not only provided a higher level of safety but also had a greater possibility of imparting their wealth of experience.
Due the shortsightedness of the management and the poor package offered to its Trg Staff , the Trg department has not been able to attract experienced Captains to join and share their experience, instead Captswith only 6 months experience are being offered positions in the Trg department. There is no doubt that these junior Capts conduct themselves well, but do deserve more time to conslidate on the line before joining the Trg department.
Communications between the mangement and the line is another reason morale is low. This is a serious issue and needs to be addressed. A fleet update by the SVP ops is insufficient. Regular meetings taking into confidence and being more transparent in dealings with the Pilot group is the need of the hour. Issues need to tackled and answers given and grievences addressed.
The issue is serious enough for some one who is expected to be with Emirates long term. However SVP ops are aware that their role with Emirates has a limited time span and it is their best interest is to toe the offical line while talking about safety standards while continually chipping at cost reductions that will have major negative repurcussions on the training and safety culture when they have long gone.
With high fuel cost and ticket prices in real terms going down , we all realize that its is struggle to manage the business profitably. Emirates management seeme to be struggling a bit too hard in the cost cutting area.
BM
Last edited by bigmountain; 21st Dec 2005 at 09:03.
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as quoted above "I don't think a pay rise will solve the problem for those people who are affected" -
might just be partially true - with 25-30% payrise (like proposed by Etihad down the road) it would be possible to cope with the spiralling living costs down here, as well as there might be some money left, after paying installments etc. back home for a more decent lifestyle!
But for a beginning: just NOT to be rostered at X-mas AND New Year might be a good idea, so the folks can go and see their family and friends between the years back home !!
And just to correct bigmountains "new definition" of TRI/TRE:
That's definitively NOT a TRANSPORT Rating Instructor /Examiners -
rather a TYPE RATING Instructor/ Examiner - at least, when we did the course moons ago...
All right - Bigmountain has shown some "learning curve" and corrected his misinterpretation of TRE/ TRI by now himself - Hush Hush of course ...
might just be partially true - with 25-30% payrise (like proposed by Etihad down the road) it would be possible to cope with the spiralling living costs down here, as well as there might be some money left, after paying installments etc. back home for a more decent lifestyle!
But for a beginning: just NOT to be rostered at X-mas AND New Year might be a good idea, so the folks can go and see their family and friends between the years back home !!
And just to correct bigmountains "new definition" of TRI/TRE:
That's definitively NOT a TRANSPORT Rating Instructor /Examiners -
rather a TYPE RATING Instructor/ Examiner - at least, when we did the course moons ago...
All right - Bigmountain has shown some "learning curve" and corrected his misinterpretation of TRE/ TRI by now himself - Hush Hush of course ...
Last edited by Cyberbird; 22nd Dec 2005 at 16:05.
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Although things are changing in the Training department I doubt that they are changing anymore than at comparable airlines and most majors. I do not believe the end product has been compromised yet. Although there may be a case against the Recruiting department.
On my most recent PPC ground school the real difference was that I did not sit in front of a computer for several hours. The company expect me to refresh that knowledge in my own time. Really it is basic stuff that we should know anyway.
My experience of new TRIs is that they are motivated and knowledgable and this goes a long way in making up for the experience of the TREs who in some cases are just 'box tickers' looking for an easy buck. The package for TCs is as good now as it has ever been.
As far as getting Christmas or New Year off we have a computerised bidding system which would work quite well if the company was firstly not losing crew and secondly attracting new joiners.
What I believe is needed now is a means of getting the company to realise that short term savings and employee management that have a negative effect on our working and home life will likely lead to a long term increase in costs to the company as a whole.
On my most recent PPC ground school the real difference was that I did not sit in front of a computer for several hours. The company expect me to refresh that knowledge in my own time. Really it is basic stuff that we should know anyway.
My experience of new TRIs is that they are motivated and knowledgable and this goes a long way in making up for the experience of the TREs who in some cases are just 'box tickers' looking for an easy buck. The package for TCs is as good now as it has ever been.
As far as getting Christmas or New Year off we have a computerised bidding system which would work quite well if the company was firstly not losing crew and secondly attracting new joiners.
What I believe is needed now is a means of getting the company to realise that short term savings and employee management that have a negative effect on our working and home life will likely lead to a long term increase in costs to the company as a whole.
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interesting thread
Hello Guys,
thank you for this serious and really interesting thread.
Yes, a lot of us made "bad" experiences at the places we have been. And usually flight crews are paying the bills for a poor management.
I do agree with you guys that we are more on a downhill way than to the uphill. (thus generally spoken)
So what are the chances to start a discussion with management?
An open letter to the chairman with constructive details?
Normally the job of an union, but I guess if you just think the word you will be hung.
How EK will and can keep in touch with their employees?
cheers
4legs/a/d
thank you for this serious and really interesting thread.
Yes, a lot of us made "bad" experiences at the places we have been. And usually flight crews are paying the bills for a poor management.
I do agree with you guys that we are more on a downhill way than to the uphill. (thus generally spoken)
So what are the chances to start a discussion with management?
An open letter to the chairman with constructive details?
Normally the job of an union, but I guess if you just think the word you will be hung.
How EK will and can keep in touch with their employees?
cheers
4legs/a/d
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There is absolutely no hope of improvement in conditions until our management, and i dare say most other managers in the ME, learn the first rule of communication.
IT HAS TO BE TWO WAY
Until they demonstrate a desire to listen to the workforce, anything they say will be just p1ss and wind.
IT HAS TO BE TWO WAY
Until they demonstrate a desire to listen to the workforce, anything they say will be just p1ss and wind.
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ek called for their training and books been written by pilots from south of the equator.
their way might not be wrong, but it's definitely no longer adapted to what's going on in most
other parts of the world. they train locals, with little leverage to unroot what should
never be airborne. atc guys complaining about ek procedures at their home base speaks volumes.
there's ample experienced hands around, but with cp's and chief-tre's on actual display,
they'd rather stay well away and just survive unseen and evenmore unheard of.
ek developped a communication culture which greatly reflects arab mentality: colourful
wording and promisses, but only shades of submissive grey in execution. best demonstrated
with a.s.'s letter about non punitive reporting: who actually believes just one word of it?
you will never be able to uphold quality in this blaming and distrustful environement.
t & c's have to enable a standard of living, not just for today, but for retirement planning aswell.
every greedy local strives to enhance his standard of living. expats should at least be able to
uphold the standard they started out with. instead the same people owning ek, and beeing of the
earlier pack, do their thing on our backs. however their arrogant "love it or leave it" fades out
slowly because the market forces work both ways.
the solution is:
1.improve t & c's: we should be able to live in a villa in a nice environement,
to join a club or have a middle priced hobby, to own a dubai-proven suv, to send our kids to a
decent school, to enjoy a good fortnight of vacation at home, to go out twice a week and to put
a further 10% into any retirement plan, all this without running out of cash.
2. dilute the oz/sa training clans and allow some fresh influence to avoid quality inbreed.
adhere to the exact same standards and gradings, irrespective of nationality, for safety's sake!
3. most of all: think, speak and act straight forward, throw over board the opportunistic
and dirty blaming game, so characteristic for the me!
there's still time and even some motivation left among most of us. but we're in desperate need
of a real leader to implement changes. there lies my pessimism, for as apart from sheik mo,
i have not seen anyone close to deserving such a designation, and he has even bigger problems
to solve around this place. unfortunately there has to be a major catastrophe (economical
or metallical) before anything will be allowed to move.
history repeats itself.
their way might not be wrong, but it's definitely no longer adapted to what's going on in most
other parts of the world. they train locals, with little leverage to unroot what should
never be airborne. atc guys complaining about ek procedures at their home base speaks volumes.
there's ample experienced hands around, but with cp's and chief-tre's on actual display,
they'd rather stay well away and just survive unseen and evenmore unheard of.
ek developped a communication culture which greatly reflects arab mentality: colourful
wording and promisses, but only shades of submissive grey in execution. best demonstrated
with a.s.'s letter about non punitive reporting: who actually believes just one word of it?
you will never be able to uphold quality in this blaming and distrustful environement.
t & c's have to enable a standard of living, not just for today, but for retirement planning aswell.
every greedy local strives to enhance his standard of living. expats should at least be able to
uphold the standard they started out with. instead the same people owning ek, and beeing of the
earlier pack, do their thing on our backs. however their arrogant "love it or leave it" fades out
slowly because the market forces work both ways.
the solution is:
1.improve t & c's: we should be able to live in a villa in a nice environement,
to join a club or have a middle priced hobby, to own a dubai-proven suv, to send our kids to a
decent school, to enjoy a good fortnight of vacation at home, to go out twice a week and to put
a further 10% into any retirement plan, all this without running out of cash.
2. dilute the oz/sa training clans and allow some fresh influence to avoid quality inbreed.
adhere to the exact same standards and gradings, irrespective of nationality, for safety's sake!
3. most of all: think, speak and act straight forward, throw over board the opportunistic
and dirty blaming game, so characteristic for the me!
there's still time and even some motivation left among most of us. but we're in desperate need
of a real leader to implement changes. there lies my pessimism, for as apart from sheik mo,
i have not seen anyone close to deserving such a designation, and he has even bigger problems
to solve around this place. unfortunately there has to be a major catastrophe (economical
or metallical) before anything will be allowed to move.
history repeats itself.
