Emirates 2nd Officers
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Mick Jagger
I'm also glad it's worked out for you. You made the decision to move for whatever reason/s and it's worked out. A move nearer to 'home' maybe? As many have said and done before, if things really are that bad and you can find better elsewhere, then go. That applies to any job. I have family in HK so know what life is like there. Some love it, others don't. I'm the latter. By the way, I never started the cost of living debate. I merely stated that regardless of how much extra you can save, Cathay is not for everyone.
Out of interest, how much of a property does $1 million buy you in HK? 2/3 bedroom apartment? good location? Not a 5 bedroom 5000 sq ft villa with pool and garden. I know which my kids prefer and that's why i'm here. I'm not in competition with anyone as to who earns the most (I'd lose anyway), just trying to offer the best for my family. In my case, that's Dubai. For now, anyway!
BelieveBrother
Yes, we'd all like EK to be 'THE' Airline to work for. But until we rid ourselves of the greed, nepotism, racism and general arse covering / face saving that takes place, we'll always have a long way to go.
This seems to be turning into a CX V EK debate which I doubt was why this topic was started. Back to the thead?
Safe flying
BYMONEK
I'm also glad it's worked out for you. You made the decision to move for whatever reason/s and it's worked out. A move nearer to 'home' maybe? As many have said and done before, if things really are that bad and you can find better elsewhere, then go. That applies to any job. I have family in HK so know what life is like there. Some love it, others don't. I'm the latter. By the way, I never started the cost of living debate. I merely stated that regardless of how much extra you can save, Cathay is not for everyone.
Out of interest, how much of a property does $1 million buy you in HK? 2/3 bedroom apartment? good location? Not a 5 bedroom 5000 sq ft villa with pool and garden. I know which my kids prefer and that's why i'm here. I'm not in competition with anyone as to who earns the most (I'd lose anyway), just trying to offer the best for my family. In my case, that's Dubai. For now, anyway!
BelieveBrother
Yes, we'd all like EK to be 'THE' Airline to work for. But until we rid ourselves of the greed, nepotism, racism and general arse covering / face saving that takes place, we'll always have a long way to go.
This seems to be turning into a CX V EK debate which I doubt was why this topic was started. Back to the thead?
Safe flying
BYMONEK
Last edited by BYMONEK; 14th Sep 2005 at 12:11.
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Seaman,
I have done the command thing at EK and am no longer "drawn" to the idea as I once was. I work for my own interests and am earning double what I was when I had all the bells and whistles so I am content, However in answer to your question, recent developments here have created the possibility of command within a year or so.
Regarding leave, I do not wish to go into details but by cleverly applying for leave to optimise extra days off. That figure is achievable.
To all those that have wished me well, thank you.
I here that at a recent high level event. EK admitted that they are now reaching crisis level due to number of guys leaving and poor responce to advertisements. Keep up the fight brothers.
Mick
I have done the command thing at EK and am no longer "drawn" to the idea as I once was. I work for my own interests and am earning double what I was when I had all the bells and whistles so I am content, However in answer to your question, recent developments here have created the possibility of command within a year or so.
Regarding leave, I do not wish to go into details but by cleverly applying for leave to optimise extra days off. That figure is achievable.
To all those that have wished me well, thank you.
I here that at a recent high level event. EK admitted that they are now reaching crisis level due to number of guys leaving and poor responce to advertisements. Keep up the fight brothers.
Mick
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Nice to hear things are going well Mick. I know it was a hard decision for you but you took the risk and it seems to have paid off. As they say, those with get up and go, go. You made your own luck and fair play to you.
Those of us left considering or in the process of moving from EK face a smilar risk, but EK are making it a great deal easier with their attitude. The recent meeting was an ideal forum to address the real and growing concerns of the pilots, but what did they do? NOTHING. This inaction induces an even stronger reaction from an already demoralised, demotivated work force...the future's bright, the future is outside EK.
Those of us left considering or in the process of moving from EK face a smilar risk, but EK are making it a great deal easier with their attitude. The recent meeting was an ideal forum to address the real and growing concerns of the pilots, but what did they do? NOTHING. This inaction induces an even stronger reaction from an already demoralised, demotivated work force...the future's bright, the future is outside EK.
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Hi Mick:
Also glad to see things are working out for you, but in regards to this statement:
"You guys are SADLY underpaid and would do this industry a great service by walking as I did.
Or you could bury your head in the sand and wait for the shafting."
I have to comment. Dragon was my first choice of expat airlines to work for. I sent them letters and resumes for years, finally I camped on their door step in Hong Kong just to get in and meet with the recruiting ladies. I speak Mandarin Chinese and have substantial experience flying in Asia, yet they considered me unqualified. I believe it is a prejudice against my passport and certificates. Honestly, I don't know what else it could be. They wouldn't even interview me.
So it isn't necessarily easy to just "walk" when you don't like the package. You had the right passport and certificates to "walk". Others also have them to go to Dragon or back to Europe, while some of us don't. We make the best of it here. In the end it isn't that bad of a package. I keep a continuous eye on expat contracts around the world. I compare what I can "save" here versus what I could save doing the other contracts I see. Emirates generally comes out ahead. Management here knows that and they will only keep the package just good enough to beat those other contracts.
Typhoonpilot
Also glad to see things are working out for you, but in regards to this statement:
"You guys are SADLY underpaid and would do this industry a great service by walking as I did.
Or you could bury your head in the sand and wait for the shafting."
I have to comment. Dragon was my first choice of expat airlines to work for. I sent them letters and resumes for years, finally I camped on their door step in Hong Kong just to get in and meet with the recruiting ladies. I speak Mandarin Chinese and have substantial experience flying in Asia, yet they considered me unqualified. I believe it is a prejudice against my passport and certificates. Honestly, I don't know what else it could be. They wouldn't even interview me.
So it isn't necessarily easy to just "walk" when you don't like the package. You had the right passport and certificates to "walk". Others also have them to go to Dragon or back to Europe, while some of us don't. We make the best of it here. In the end it isn't that bad of a package. I keep a continuous eye on expat contracts around the world. I compare what I can "save" here versus what I could save doing the other contracts I see. Emirates generally comes out ahead. Management here knows that and they will only keep the package just good enough to beat those other contracts.
Typhoonpilot
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Hi Typhoon,
I hope you and the family are well.
I remember our Manilla flight well, just before your upgrade. I promise you the reason was not your passport. We have others here from the same place. If you would like to discuss then please look up my website on the net (just search under my name ) and give me a call.
I accept that there are not that many very good jobs out there but a little searching will reveal a few. It is very hard to give up on the time already invested in EK and accept a demotion in aorder to provide a better future for your family. However can you ever see yourself retiring from EK with a reasonable lifestyle? If not then you must act, sooner rather than later. I wish you the best of luck.
Mick
I hope you and the family are well.
I remember our Manilla flight well, just before your upgrade. I promise you the reason was not your passport. We have others here from the same place. If you would like to discuss then please look up my website on the net (just search under my name ) and give me a call.
I accept that there are not that many very good jobs out there but a little searching will reveal a few. It is very hard to give up on the time already invested in EK and accept a demotion in aorder to provide a better future for your family. However can you ever see yourself retiring from EK with a reasonable lifestyle? If not then you must act, sooner rather than later. I wish you the best of luck.
Mick
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I'm sure Dragon is about the same but I know Year 1 CX captain makes 12500 US/ mo. That's 45k Dirhams.......Year 1. That's straight salary with nothing included..... EK is VASTLY underpaid.
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EK Hiring
Hey Mick Jagger, you say:
"I here that at a recent high level event. EK admitted that they are now reaching crisis level due to number of guys leaving and poor responce to advertisements"
It is strange for me to read your post! I have over 7500 hrs experience including over 3000 hrs of that on heavy wide body, but yet (after 6 months) I am still waiting for even an acknowledgement from EK that they have received my application! If in deed they are looking for pilot, why are they not acknowledging aplication from experienced applicants?
Just wandering I guest!
"I here that at a recent high level event. EK admitted that they are now reaching crisis level due to number of guys leaving and poor responce to advertisements"
It is strange for me to read your post! I have over 7500 hrs experience including over 3000 hrs of that on heavy wide body, but yet (after 6 months) I am still waiting for even an acknowledgement from EK that they have received my application! If in deed they are looking for pilot, why are they not acknowledging aplication from experienced applicants?
Just wandering I guest!
Remember the days when you had to be a space shuttle captain just to get an interview with Cathay ? A scale pay and one of the best jobs in the world.
Since the B,C,D etc scales came in the experience requirements headed south and CP came to Aussie and NZ looking for turbo prop, and in some cases piston, drivers to train up as S/Os.
Can anyone see EK going the same way ?
Since the B,C,D etc scales came in the experience requirements headed south and CP came to Aussie and NZ looking for turbo prop, and in some cases piston, drivers to train up as S/Os.
Can anyone see EK going the same way ?
The way I see things is;
1.Emirates aren't getting pilots with the experience they would like because they are either just not there or unwilling to accept what EK has put on the table.
2.Assuming EK won't offer more, solution - Drop Jet/Heavy/Glass requirement. Place advert in Friday "Australian" news paper aviation section "Pilots Wanted". Book hotel rooms in SYD/BNE/MEL for interviews. Hire security guards for crowd control.
3.Offer salaries of half present EK F/O levels, ie twice Aussie GA pilot wages.
4.Spend a bit more time and money on training SAAB/DHC8/SW4 and possible good piston drivers, prehaps make the new hire a S/O for a year first. Problem of F/Os solved.(Worked out OK for Cathay)
For Captains, offer half present Ek wages but give an Australian base. With daily services to most major Aussie cities should be easy enough to roster. Save on housing/school/unhappy wife in Dubai.
Stand by for applications from Aussies in Europe/Far East who have saved up enough money to be able to now work for peanuts and want to return home for family reasons/lifestyle. Problem of Captains solved.(Worked for Virgin Blue)
Present EK pilots like it or lump it, did you know Northwest and Delta both filed for bankrupcy today ? Got to cut costs you know. Management bonus increased as a result of savings made.
1.Emirates aren't getting pilots with the experience they would like because they are either just not there or unwilling to accept what EK has put on the table.
2.Assuming EK won't offer more, solution - Drop Jet/Heavy/Glass requirement. Place advert in Friday "Australian" news paper aviation section "Pilots Wanted". Book hotel rooms in SYD/BNE/MEL for interviews. Hire security guards for crowd control.
3.Offer salaries of half present EK F/O levels, ie twice Aussie GA pilot wages.
4.Spend a bit more time and money on training SAAB/DHC8/SW4 and possible good piston drivers, prehaps make the new hire a S/O for a year first. Problem of F/Os solved.(Worked out OK for Cathay)
For Captains, offer half present Ek wages but give an Australian base. With daily services to most major Aussie cities should be easy enough to roster. Save on housing/school/unhappy wife in Dubai.
Stand by for applications from Aussies in Europe/Far East who have saved up enough money to be able to now work for peanuts and want to return home for family reasons/lifestyle. Problem of Captains solved.(Worked for Virgin Blue)
Present EK pilots like it or lump it, did you know Northwest and Delta both filed for bankrupcy today ? Got to cut costs you know. Management bonus increased as a result of savings made.
Last edited by Metro man; 15th Sep 2005 at 05:16.
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Basings !!!!!!
You must watch out for the new drug testing policy.
This is what we have asked for, for years now.
GN and his incompetent cronies want 100% control over EK drivers. So keep them right under their noses and make them spend their salaries back into arab pocket.
You must watch out for the new drug testing policy.
This is what we have asked for, for years now.
GN and his incompetent cronies want 100% control over EK drivers. So keep them right under their noses and make them spend their salaries back into arab pocket.
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Musket,
I no longer work for EK but if you filled in your application form with the same merciless disregard for basic spelling and grammer as you demonstrated in your recent missive, then I should not be surprised that their recruitment department has treated you with such contempt.
I no longer work for EK but if you filled in your application form with the same merciless disregard for basic spelling and grammer as you demonstrated in your recent missive, then I should not be surprised that their recruitment department has treated you with such contempt.
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Mick,
Thank you for pointing my errors. I guess all I can say is: Everybody makes mistakes. Some are big, some small. Many are costly. All are learning opportunities. If we’re smart and pay attention, we learn from our mistakes. If we’re really smart, we learn from other people’s slip-ups. And if we care at all about other people, we tell them “Don’t make the same mistake I did.” Thus, don’t type any post late at night after arriving from a 10-hour trans-Atlantic flight. The replies you will receive want be the information you were looking for.
Thanks anyway Mick!
Thank you for pointing my errors. I guess all I can say is: Everybody makes mistakes. Some are big, some small. Many are costly. All are learning opportunities. If we’re smart and pay attention, we learn from our mistakes. If we’re really smart, we learn from other people’s slip-ups. And if we care at all about other people, we tell them “Don’t make the same mistake I did.” Thus, don’t type any post late at night after arriving from a 10-hour trans-Atlantic flight. The replies you will receive want be the information you were looking for.
Thanks anyway Mick!
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I'd be surprised if Management themselves knew which way they'll eventually go on the SO question - or any other policy decision that's more than 48 hours away. Such things are in a constant state of flux, and will be decided with customary brinkmanship, (a trait among modern day managers certainly not exclusive to EK).
However, since this IS a rumour network, here's a Class A rumour. Treat it was you will. TCAS is said to have informed a very recent resignee (is that the right word?) that he should seriously consider putting off his decision until after the "big announcement" in October.
Whether the "big announcement" will be as out of touch with reality as many increasingly cynical EK pilots consider some other recent decisions have been remains to be seen, but if the powers that be had a modicum of sense, they'd sweeten both sides of the toast - a more than notional pay rise to keep everyone happy, (the fall in the value of the USD has hurt virtually all but the incredibly small number of Americans in the EK pilot workforce), and a significant (please note that word, anyone from management reading this), alteration DOWNWARDS to the minimum conditions/requirements/time in company for upgrade.
I flew with a very new FO on a recent flight who, IMHO, would be more than ready for upgrade after two PPCs. (No command time at all. Ex 747-400 FO with his country’s flag carrier, many years experience on the same international routes that EK operates on - and for the cynics among you, he has very dark brown skin.) Under the current rules, he’s in the right seat for another two and half years at a minimum while DECs with possibly no experience in the region or on type come in above him.
I accept that with the huge number of upgrades over the next 12 months, EK can’t fill all the vacancies from eligible FOs already with the company. However, ‘eligible’ is an elastic term, and can be modified to suit the constantly changing situation. It’s time to modify the current definition, gents.
In the past, every time EK has needed a large influx of pilots, a major airline somewhere in the world has folded, almost as if on cue. Now we see NorthWest and Delta declaring Chapter 11, so it’s possible it’s about to happen yet again. I just hope someone in Ops Management has the courage to stand up and remind the decision makers what a success rate EK enjoyed with the last batch of American DECs they employed.
However, since this IS a rumour network, here's a Class A rumour. Treat it was you will. TCAS is said to have informed a very recent resignee (is that the right word?) that he should seriously consider putting off his decision until after the "big announcement" in October.
Whether the "big announcement" will be as out of touch with reality as many increasingly cynical EK pilots consider some other recent decisions have been remains to be seen, but if the powers that be had a modicum of sense, they'd sweeten both sides of the toast - a more than notional pay rise to keep everyone happy, (the fall in the value of the USD has hurt virtually all but the incredibly small number of Americans in the EK pilot workforce), and a significant (please note that word, anyone from management reading this), alteration DOWNWARDS to the minimum conditions/requirements/time in company for upgrade.
I flew with a very new FO on a recent flight who, IMHO, would be more than ready for upgrade after two PPCs. (No command time at all. Ex 747-400 FO with his country’s flag carrier, many years experience on the same international routes that EK operates on - and for the cynics among you, he has very dark brown skin.) Under the current rules, he’s in the right seat for another two and half years at a minimum while DECs with possibly no experience in the region or on type come in above him.
I accept that with the huge number of upgrades over the next 12 months, EK can’t fill all the vacancies from eligible FOs already with the company. However, ‘eligible’ is an elastic term, and can be modified to suit the constantly changing situation. It’s time to modify the current definition, gents.
In the past, every time EK has needed a large influx of pilots, a major airline somewhere in the world has folded, almost as if on cue. Now we see NorthWest and Delta declaring Chapter 11, so it’s possible it’s about to happen yet again. I just hope someone in Ops Management has the courage to stand up and remind the decision makers what a success rate EK enjoyed with the last batch of American DECs they employed.