(EK) pilot meeting
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Trimotor,
My reference is to the personal elements of your post.
Either you get great amusement from trying to wind people up (it's a free world), or you actually believe in what you write.
If it is the latter, and I very much doubt it, then you need to be honest and question if you consider yourself a better person for all your slagging.
I have no need to justify who or what I am, just as you don't, but what gives me any reason to believe that you are a pilot? For all you know, I could be your best buddy.
Cheer up old boy...
Kokkos
Quite right in your defintion, just as I am in my use of it.
I guess we attended the same lesson.
I'll pass your apologies on...
My reference is to the personal elements of your post.
Either you get great amusement from trying to wind people up (it's a free world), or you actually believe in what you write.
If it is the latter, and I very much doubt it, then you need to be honest and question if you consider yourself a better person for all your slagging.
I have no need to justify who or what I am, just as you don't, but what gives me any reason to believe that you are a pilot? For all you know, I could be your best buddy.
Cheer up old boy...
Kokkos
Quite right in your defintion, just as I am in my use of it.
I guess we attended the same lesson.
I'll pass your apologies on...
Last edited by Global Nomad; 4th Sep 2005 at 06:33.
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Boys, boys, boys! This is a social thread, not a slander and abuse eachothr thread. 
Stick together!
Ok, so the important question : What hotel bar is it and what time? I don't know a Palm hotel next to Hard Rock. I do know a Park Hotel that has a pub upstairs call Finnegans.
Stick together!Ok, so the important question : What hotel bar is it and what time? I don't know a Palm hotel next to Hard Rock. I do know a Park Hotel that has a pub upstairs call Finnegans.
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advise
Hi, please i'm looking for information, advise, but please be sincere, in my current job a get 6 to 7 days off including rest time and 8 days off in a row(consecutive), and fly like 70 hrs a month, and make 4000$ a month(max), i'm looking for a job at EK 'cos i always thought it was kind of among the top in air carriers, but i've been reading at your forums and now i'm thinking if it'd be a good idea to go there or not, to make carrier, money wise, etc
really what you reply will mean a lot
thank you
really what you reply will mean a lot
thank you
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I hope that the following allows you to make an informed decision. It is unemotional and factual (a first on PPRuNe??!)
I make about $8500 a month, that includes around $1300 overtime. I fly over 90 hours a month on Ultra Long Haul routes and get 8 days off, plus about 3 rest days a month. But I am a Captain.
An FO would make about $5500 including $1000 overtime. But the overtime is not guaranteed, it varies from month to month. What is absolutel certain and factual, is that under theold credit scheme, I would be making more money.
So basically, you can say that a Captain is on about $7000-$8000 and an FO on $4500 - $5500.
What is also certain is that the overtime varies from fleet to fleet. Airbus A340 guys are getting it, B777 are not. But then they fly less, so I think it is a fair system.
I pay 5% (mandatory) and the company pays 10% of my monthly salary into an offshore provident fund, available as a cash lump at teh end of my time here. During the last six months, the equity based investment rose just 0.96%. The cash would have done better at the bank!
The company pay for my medicals and I have what I consider to be excellent medical benefits. But I have yet to really use them, so the fact that it is an excellent scheme is subjective.
I am very happy overall, I have a nice life here, but the day to day Dubai stuff wears me down, so I have to go back to Europe every so often to chill out and relax in the countryside where there is no traffic, noise or polution. But I have to ask the company if I can leave Dubai on my days off. ALthough I have never been told no, others have.
Communication between the management and crew is at an all time low. There is no regular update on the present state of teh business, on the deliveries, on anything. We used to be informed regularly about what was going on in the airline and we used to be allowed to comment on it. Now there is a brick wall between the two groups and there is no evidence at all that the management care about this. After all, if there is no communication to be done, that is one less task that they need to do.
I consider myself quite senior within the airline yet I have not had peak leave for two years now and thi syear, the secondary leave allocation was taken within minutes of teh bids opening up on the system. Not near a computer when it was opened up? Tough. I am now owed 24 days by the company, yet cannot take them this leave year. I had already carried 10 over from last year.
The morale is at an all time low, despite what others may have said. This makes the day to day aspect of going to work more and more difficult to bear.
The type of flying that we do is extremely debilitating. Massive jumps in time zones and bad rostering make a 12 hour time zone change within six days very realistic; That is a fact, I do it often enough and it is painful and very fatiguing.
The cabin crew are treated appalingly (see the thread relating to security - here)
If you asked me would I come here knowing what I know now, then I would have to say no, I wouldn't. Why? The grass is always greener and I was attracted by the glitz and gloss of the airline and Dubai. What I have discovered is that the airline are not as caring as they purport to be. Notwithstanding special cases where the staff have been incredible well treated (mostly medical cases etc.) the airline has become too big to really take a caring attitude towards the staff, especially the cabin and flight crew. Dubai itself is a massive environmental disaster in the making. The once clear blue Gulf waters are murky and the air is decidedly not fresh.
I hope that the above allows you to make that informed decision. Should you decide to join, then you would have had access to more information than ever regarding the real Emirates and the actual conditions of working here. However, despite all of the above, somebody did tell me once that Emirates was probably the best of a bad industry. Now there's food for thought!
Gulf Nomad is quite right when he says that the details contained here on this forum do not constitute the majority's opinion. However, I firmly believe that there is enough here to make that informed decision. Good luck in your career and safe flying wherever you decide to go.
As a post script, a friend of mine in Italy recomended that I buy a book, it's by a guy called Robin Sharma and is called The Monk That Sold His Ferrari. You are lucky, you don't have to buy it to get the gist of the tale:
Do not go chasing the dollar, money is not everything!! Keep your health, your family bonds, your friendships and your spirituality, the rest will come to you!
I make about $8500 a month, that includes around $1300 overtime. I fly over 90 hours a month on Ultra Long Haul routes and get 8 days off, plus about 3 rest days a month. But I am a Captain.
An FO would make about $5500 including $1000 overtime. But the overtime is not guaranteed, it varies from month to month. What is absolutel certain and factual, is that under theold credit scheme, I would be making more money.
So basically, you can say that a Captain is on about $7000-$8000 and an FO on $4500 - $5500.
What is also certain is that the overtime varies from fleet to fleet. Airbus A340 guys are getting it, B777 are not. But then they fly less, so I think it is a fair system.
I pay 5% (mandatory) and the company pays 10% of my monthly salary into an offshore provident fund, available as a cash lump at teh end of my time here. During the last six months, the equity based investment rose just 0.96%. The cash would have done better at the bank!
The company pay for my medicals and I have what I consider to be excellent medical benefits. But I have yet to really use them, so the fact that it is an excellent scheme is subjective.
I am very happy overall, I have a nice life here, but the day to day Dubai stuff wears me down, so I have to go back to Europe every so often to chill out and relax in the countryside where there is no traffic, noise or polution. But I have to ask the company if I can leave Dubai on my days off. ALthough I have never been told no, others have.
Communication between the management and crew is at an all time low. There is no regular update on the present state of teh business, on the deliveries, on anything. We used to be informed regularly about what was going on in the airline and we used to be allowed to comment on it. Now there is a brick wall between the two groups and there is no evidence at all that the management care about this. After all, if there is no communication to be done, that is one less task that they need to do.
I consider myself quite senior within the airline yet I have not had peak leave for two years now and thi syear, the secondary leave allocation was taken within minutes of teh bids opening up on the system. Not near a computer when it was opened up? Tough. I am now owed 24 days by the company, yet cannot take them this leave year. I had already carried 10 over from last year.
The morale is at an all time low, despite what others may have said. This makes the day to day aspect of going to work more and more difficult to bear.
The type of flying that we do is extremely debilitating. Massive jumps in time zones and bad rostering make a 12 hour time zone change within six days very realistic; That is a fact, I do it often enough and it is painful and very fatiguing.
The cabin crew are treated appalingly (see the thread relating to security - here)
If you asked me would I come here knowing what I know now, then I would have to say no, I wouldn't. Why? The grass is always greener and I was attracted by the glitz and gloss of the airline and Dubai. What I have discovered is that the airline are not as caring as they purport to be. Notwithstanding special cases where the staff have been incredible well treated (mostly medical cases etc.) the airline has become too big to really take a caring attitude towards the staff, especially the cabin and flight crew. Dubai itself is a massive environmental disaster in the making. The once clear blue Gulf waters are murky and the air is decidedly not fresh.
I hope that the above allows you to make that informed decision. Should you decide to join, then you would have had access to more information than ever regarding the real Emirates and the actual conditions of working here. However, despite all of the above, somebody did tell me once that Emirates was probably the best of a bad industry. Now there's food for thought!
Gulf Nomad is quite right when he says that the details contained here on this forum do not constitute the majority's opinion. However, I firmly believe that there is enough here to make that informed decision. Good luck in your career and safe flying wherever you decide to go.
As a post script, a friend of mine in Italy recomended that I buy a book, it's by a guy called Robin Sharma and is called The Monk That Sold His Ferrari. You are lucky, you don't have to buy it to get the gist of the tale:
Do not go chasing the dollar, money is not everything!! Keep your health, your family bonds, your friendships and your spirituality, the rest will come to you!
Last edited by SecurID; 4th Sep 2005 at 18:42.
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SECURE ID said
If you asked me would I come here knowing what I know now, then I would have to say no, I wouldn't. Why? The grass is always greener
Hey there is also a saying that the only reason the grass is always greener is because of the amount of manure that it is covered in. Horticultural observation of course.
If you asked me would I come here knowing what I know now, then I would have to say no, I wouldn't. Why? The grass is always greener
Hey there is also a saying that the only reason the grass is always greener is because of the amount of manure that it is covered in. Horticultural observation of course.
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GN, Thanks for your reply and you were, of course, correct. My post has been amended.
Now, though, could you make a comment directly concerning the morale?
I believe that you are earning some respect on this forum with your intelligent and honest remarks, therefore a comment regarding the morale within the Flight Ops department may have a little more weight coming from you rather than coming from one of the 'vocal minority!'
But if you are KG, I would have thought that you would rise above all this!
Now, though, could you make a comment directly concerning the morale?
I believe that you are earning some respect on this forum with your intelligent and honest remarks, therefore a comment regarding the morale within the Flight Ops department may have a little more weight coming from you rather than coming from one of the 'vocal minority!'
But if you are KG, I would have thought that you would rise above all this!
thank you
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Critical Whinge
You forgot to add that the manure always floats to the top.
Secure
Would that be an individual’s morale or company morale? Very subjective topic and difficult to measure but here's my take on it.
Morale is an individual thing. Get enough people in that actual airline with a similar level of morale and you will project that to the world at large.
The morale of most Emirates crew that post on pprune is low, but the medium that they are able to communicate can project an impression that EK's morale is at a different level to what it is. An example, how many times do we see a new post saying "Is it really that bad, are there any happy crew out there"?
I will state again, people are free to post what they want. My response is that each post we see here is one individual’s impression and that the vast majority of staff do not express an opinion.
Pprune is a very powerful tool and anyone looking for a take on EK morale needs to be aware that each post comes from just one individual, and they may well use more than one ID.
So what level is Emirates morale at? Who am I to answer that question because I cannot provide anything substantial to prove it?
I have flown with pilots and have friends that would claim their morale is low while others claim this is the best thing that has happened to them. It depends on the individual, where he came from, what he expects out of EK and most importantly how much accountability he attributes to Emirates and how much he accepts himself for his individual situation.
Personal impression though. Emirates morale has been better, I've also seen it a lot worse.
You forgot to add that the manure always floats to the top.
Secure
Would that be an individual’s morale or company morale? Very subjective topic and difficult to measure but here's my take on it.
Morale is an individual thing. Get enough people in that actual airline with a similar level of morale and you will project that to the world at large.
The morale of most Emirates crew that post on pprune is low, but the medium that they are able to communicate can project an impression that EK's morale is at a different level to what it is. An example, how many times do we see a new post saying "Is it really that bad, are there any happy crew out there"?
I will state again, people are free to post what they want. My response is that each post we see here is one individual’s impression and that the vast majority of staff do not express an opinion.
Pprune is a very powerful tool and anyone looking for a take on EK morale needs to be aware that each post comes from just one individual, and they may well use more than one ID.
So what level is Emirates morale at? Who am I to answer that question because I cannot provide anything substantial to prove it?
I have flown with pilots and have friends that would claim their morale is low while others claim this is the best thing that has happened to them. It depends on the individual, where he came from, what he expects out of EK and most importantly how much accountability he attributes to Emirates and how much he accepts himself for his individual situation.
Personal impression though. Emirates morale has been better, I've also seen it a lot worse.
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Global,
Some of what you say is 100% correct, the rest is like everything else on this forum your opinion.
I agree that very few of the EK pilots post (not enough time between flights to log on), but that is not a valid indication of the level of morale in the airline. I would go as far as saying that morale is very much at an all time low. The only time I remember it being this low, was when AAR stood in front of a bunch of pissed off pilots and told us how wonderful Dubai is and how fantastic it is to work for EK and that there was NO MORALE PROBLEM!
He said there were sh!t-loads of guys applying to EK and if we were not happy we should leave - seems to me like the exodus has begun!
Some of what you say is 100% correct, the rest is like everything else on this forum your opinion.
I agree that very few of the EK pilots post (not enough time between flights to log on), but that is not a valid indication of the level of morale in the airline. I would go as far as saying that morale is very much at an all time low. The only time I remember it being this low, was when AAR stood in front of a bunch of pissed off pilots and told us how wonderful Dubai is and how fantastic it is to work for EK and that there was NO MORALE PROBLEM!
He said there were sh!t-loads of guys applying to EK and if we were not happy we should leave - seems to me like the exodus has begun!
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I disagree with you GN (which is not unusual).
Morale does not happen in isolation it is a collective entity, directly defined and controlled by company or Organisational culture.
To quote our CRM course, "culture is to organisations, what personality is to individuals"
As such the organisational culture and its philosophies has a direct impact on all the workforce and indeed organisational safety.
Measuring morale is not at all difficult, there are many means of doing so, the simplest being questionnaires. You may notice a complete lack of concern displayed by our management in the morale of its troops, this is manifested in the continual changes in T&C's. No input is sought at any REALISTIC level, just occasional lip service at best.
Morale does not happen in isolation it is a collective entity, directly defined and controlled by company or Organisational culture.
To quote our CRM course, "culture is to organisations, what personality is to individuals"
As such the organisational culture and its philosophies has a direct impact on all the workforce and indeed organisational safety.
Measuring morale is not at all difficult, there are many means of doing so, the simplest being questionnaires. You may notice a complete lack of concern displayed by our management in the morale of its troops, this is manifested in the continual changes in T&C's. No input is sought at any REALISTIC level, just occasional lip service at best.
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Gentlemen, here are some guidelines that I suggest we follow for the meeting at Finnegans
"In preparation for the Finnegan's Meeting on Sept 10th, and in order for the waiters to better provide clarification and information on issues that are of concern to you, can you please send specific questions you would like to hear answered to the bartender. This is important as it allows you, the abused, to get the maximum benefit from the meeting, so your participation is requested.
Be advised that the following criteria will apply.
(i) It will not be possible to answer all questions due to time constraints, you must appreciate that.
(ii) All questions must have a senders name, this will not be mentioned at the meeting but is for our records so we can answer the query at a later date directly to the person.
(iii) Please keep questions as generic as possible, don't get bogged into details of a particular item.
(iv) There will be items of corporate confidentiality that will not be able to be expanded upon, you will be advised of these."
Well that about says it all
save yourselves
gotta run, flying again!
"In preparation for the Finnegan's Meeting on Sept 10th, and in order for the waiters to better provide clarification and information on issues that are of concern to you, can you please send specific questions you would like to hear answered to the bartender. This is important as it allows you, the abused, to get the maximum benefit from the meeting, so your participation is requested.
Be advised that the following criteria will apply.
(i) It will not be possible to answer all questions due to time constraints, you must appreciate that.
(ii) All questions must have a senders name, this will not be mentioned at the meeting but is for our records so we can answer the query at a later date directly to the person.
(iii) Please keep questions as generic as possible, don't get bogged into details of a particular item.
(iv) There will be items of corporate confidentiality that will not be able to be expanded upon, you will be advised of these."
Well that about says it all
save yourselves
gotta run, flying again!
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Items of corporate confidentiality:
1. Payrise
2. Number of resignations
3. Cross fleet upgrade
4. DEC program
5. Crew shortage
6. Warning letters for trivial S##T
7. Fatigue models
8. New crew compound near Al Ain
9. New credit hours
Due to the sensitive nature of the above, none may be discussed.
1. Payrise
2. Number of resignations
3. Cross fleet upgrade
4. DEC program
5. Crew shortage
6. Warning letters for trivial S##T
7. Fatigue models
8. New crew compound near Al Ain
9. New credit hours
Due to the sensitive nature of the above, none may be discussed.
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The cameras will be in attendance and rolling so we can identify anyone who asks not only an inappropriate question but also a question that is not approved. This will also be used for future disciplinary items. Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
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You guys haven't been to enough meetings.
The general format goes something like this.
One month warning to said conflict
Invitation for all and sundry to put forward items for agenda.
Meeting day arrives with throngs of uninformed masses arriving to try and unravel some of the mysteries surrounding their overdraft and chronic fatigue.
Management convenes said meeting, making it clear that they only have limited time to use the facilities and have to be gone by 3pm. (Clearly the owner needs to use the facility for something far more important!). The meeting then commences 30 min late with introduction from SVPFO who tells us how good things are and how lucky we are to be here and how expensive life is in England. Fuel is 50 quid a litre or similar. He then introduces several other flunkies who proceed to mesmerise us with tales of shiny aircraft, massive upgrade numbers, reems of applications from seriously experienced pilots wanting to work for our coveted airline.
They then move on to tell us how EK are industry leaders in fatigue management, how the changes to our productivity will be at worst cost neutral. They throw in the odd little jibe about how we shouldn't be paid if we aren't acutally sitting in a cockpit.
We then get a bit of burst on how we are about to revolutionise cabin crew recruiting, training and morale. (Bigger stick)
This is punctuated by a couple of drinks breaks, some enlightening information about the CRS system, which basicallly says that for the want of a few hundred thousand dirhams and another 100 pilots it might actually work, but in the meantime could we just ask for your support until we get it sorted out.
As we now approach 3 o'clock, SVPFO wanders back in from somewhere ready to wrap up the meeting, content that everyone is happy and all issues have been addressed.
Questions did I here you say. ****, no time for that. Too busy telling us how lucky we are.
That leaves us all to go home and check the overdraft again, grab a quick drink before getting a couple of hours kip to head off to some sh*thole, in the middle of the night, hoping that as long as you get a quick turnaround you might be back in time to see the kids before they go to school.
Seems a whole lot easier to go to finnegans.
The general format goes something like this.
One month warning to said conflict
Invitation for all and sundry to put forward items for agenda.
Meeting day arrives with throngs of uninformed masses arriving to try and unravel some of the mysteries surrounding their overdraft and chronic fatigue.
Management convenes said meeting, making it clear that they only have limited time to use the facilities and have to be gone by 3pm. (Clearly the owner needs to use the facility for something far more important!). The meeting then commences 30 min late with introduction from SVPFO who tells us how good things are and how lucky we are to be here and how expensive life is in England. Fuel is 50 quid a litre or similar. He then introduces several other flunkies who proceed to mesmerise us with tales of shiny aircraft, massive upgrade numbers, reems of applications from seriously experienced pilots wanting to work for our coveted airline.
They then move on to tell us how EK are industry leaders in fatigue management, how the changes to our productivity will be at worst cost neutral. They throw in the odd little jibe about how we shouldn't be paid if we aren't acutally sitting in a cockpit.
We then get a bit of burst on how we are about to revolutionise cabin crew recruiting, training and morale. (Bigger stick)
This is punctuated by a couple of drinks breaks, some enlightening information about the CRS system, which basicallly says that for the want of a few hundred thousand dirhams and another 100 pilots it might actually work, but in the meantime could we just ask for your support until we get it sorted out.
As we now approach 3 o'clock, SVPFO wanders back in from somewhere ready to wrap up the meeting, content that everyone is happy and all issues have been addressed.
Questions did I here you say. ****, no time for that. Too busy telling us how lucky we are.
That leaves us all to go home and check the overdraft again, grab a quick drink before getting a couple of hours kip to head off to some sh*thole, in the middle of the night, hoping that as long as you get a quick turnaround you might be back in time to see the kids before they go to school.
Seems a whole lot easier to go to finnegans.
