Shifting Sands of EK Terms & Conditions
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Shifting Sands of EK Terms & Conditions
Hi All,
Firstly, through all of the latest round of 'cost equal' hammering of our contracts, how many posts on our dedicated airline forum??? Yes that would be ZERO! Can't be THAT upset then I gather.
Here's what I propose... Each time you go to work and 'keep on discovering' just how little you knew about your own terms and conditions you post a message here or on the EK forum on your return. That way we ALL might be a little more informed about what will happen if you work a day off or accept a change of duty etc. Thereafter one can make an informed decision on what to do.
Happy New Year To All
PS: Anyone heard the one about the 'excess' of Airbus trainers that could find themselves on the A310 very soon? JUICY
Firstly, through all of the latest round of 'cost equal' hammering of our contracts, how many posts on our dedicated airline forum??? Yes that would be ZERO! Can't be THAT upset then I gather.
Here's what I propose... Each time you go to work and 'keep on discovering' just how little you knew about your own terms and conditions you post a message here or on the EK forum on your return. That way we ALL might be a little more informed about what will happen if you work a day off or accept a change of duty etc. Thereafter one can make an informed decision on what to do.
Happy New Year To All
PS: Anyone heard the one about the 'excess' of Airbus trainers that could find themselves on the A310 very soon? JUICY
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Have you heard the one about the 30% surcharge on utilities being levies by DEWA. NOT a Tax according to them. Just a surcharge. EK have responded in there usual fashion so bend down guys here comes your New Year gift.
EK to pay a flat rate of 1000 dids to each of us. We then pay our own utilities.
How to sell it? Easy.. its to conserve energy and encourage us all to go easy on water. Ha ha ha.
Now where did I leave the KY?
Just a rumouy at present!!
EK to pay a flat rate of 1000 dids to each of us. We then pay our own utilities.
How to sell it? Easy.. its to conserve energy and encourage us all to go easy on water. Ha ha ha.
Now where did I leave the KY?
Just a rumouy at present!!
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Interesting rumour. Unlike many of the recent changes, this one is directly mentioned in your contract. Ref Company Accommodation "The company will pay rent, tax, all relevant cooking gas, electricity and water charges."
Whilst I'm sure they are looking at it, I believe this one might be cost-negative to the company, as it would release all those annoyed F/Os from their bonds!
Happy New Year everyone.
Whilst I'm sure they are looking at it, I believe this one might be cost-negative to the company, as it would release all those annoyed F/Os from their bonds!
Happy New Year everyone.
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Utilities, schmootilities. A few thousand here or there won't scare anyone off from wanting to come to the city of gold and.....say it quietly, sand.
Don't believe the trainer rumour is a rumour, it is now in the open. They want, I believe the numbers are, 10 TCIs to resign and 5 TCEs to be TCIs. It will probably be done by LIFO.
Now interestingly there is the chance of a move to the 310 (Freighter?) but not to the 777 even though they are gonna need a load of trainers this year. Better to take DEC 737 trainers probably; than EK former 777 qualified now 330 trainers!? It is the 'emirates filosofeee'
I think they have discovered that in the new 'cost neutral' environment that with the current number of trainers it is more expensive than when they were paying pay per duty. Cunningly though the new contract pays less than the old, the harder you work. So if you reduce the trainer numbers and work them harder it costs less. Clearly there has been a reduction in the 330 task but over the last few years the guys have been working too much. This means that guys in ,say, standards haven't been able to do as much standardising as perhaps they would like. Added to that, a trainer doing a ground duty, but not in the sim, just like the recruiters gets no credit. What incentive is there to work? All the old good will has just been swept out of the office.
As to recruitment, all the guys that resigned when the new system came into place have been made to work on anyway. Eventually a new system will be in place which has little involvement from the customer, Flight Ops. That cannot be good! They are going to pull F/Os off the line to fly in the sim. You wannabees might just be unlucky enough to get a C- operator out of position in the left seat deciding whether or not you get a job. They will almost certainly be p*ssed off because they won't get any credit for the task and if you are a DEC will see you as stealing their career.
So lets take stock:
1. DECs, changes to command rules = p*ssed off pilot group. DECs have less experience than a lot of the F/Os, the only advantage they have is that they are Captains currently and not Captains that have the added bonus of EK operational experience. The management seem to take the view that it will be ok because our F/Os are so experienced they will be able to look after them. Oh and did I mention it is cheaper to give a 737 shorthaul Captain a full Transition course than to Upgrade an EK F/O (even if they are better qualified) because you would still need a Transition course for the F/Os replacement. In theory you save on the Upgrade course costs. So....it saves money
2. It could be argued that they change the management every couple of years when they have done too much damage to remain tenable. Next guy wins more popularity by cutting the last guys levels even further. The error chain gets longer and it...Saves money
3. Change the T&Cs of the crews but pretend it is 'cost neutral'. Don't lie to us we are not stupid, it is not cost neutral! It is amazing that I am now considered not to be on duty when I do my PPC. The PPC is the way in which the general public are ensured that they have a competent operator in the front of our aircraft but the company don't consider it as duty. Bizarre! Sadly most of the pilots assure me that they will take the same view as the company and the T&C changes will be seen as 'goodwill neutral' too. But..really...it saves money
4. Office days don't count. So how do you get someone to do all the important jobs that ensure important things don't fall through the cracks. But...it saves money.
5. Recruitment will now have little Flt Ops involvement. How does anyone else know what Flt Ops need? The effects of this should be felt just as the 380 comes on stream. But...it saves money.
To sum up:
One of the fastest expanding airlines in the world. The best way to manage change is to ensure continuity and to keep the goodwill of all the employees so that despite a paucity of resources the expansion is carried out safely.
What have the management done? ....Yep, cut costs. We have had one incident this year which was (in my view!) due to our expansion. New aircraft type, inexperienced (on type) crew and poor training and technical advice. To solve this problem we sacked a couple of managers and then announced the expansion would be even bigger. Then to ensure we improved safety we correctly trained the area that was deficient. Critically, we haven't changed the system that lead to the error! Instead we have:
Got inexperienced, on type and more importantly long haul operations, DECs. Cut the T&Cs of the crews. Destroyed the F/Os career prospects and in a stroke removed any remaining goodwill. Whilst deciding to remove any incentive to work in the office. We then reduce the number of trainers and make them work harder. Added to that we have changed the recruitment system at exactly the moment that we need to keep the standards up.
And why.....due to short term earning figures and a fuel price hike.
As a pilot I am never allowed to quote safety as being an issue. Employers always say that pilots only raise the safety card when T&Cs are mentioned. Maybe they are right, who knows.
Well, the current management will only find out the effect of their recent changes in about 2 years when different standards are coming through the system, we are introducing another 2 new aircraft types and guys haven't been carrying out the boring but essential tasks in the office. The safety net is being eroded and only then will we be able to see what the short-sighted, manager derived, error chain has led to.
I hope I will be proved wrong because if I am the managers will be able to sit back and say 'look how much we saved!'. If they can do that it will be down to the last ditch efforts of the front-line operational staff - Flightdeck, CCMs, dispatchers, engineers etc saving the day and breaking the chain. If not I guarantee all of them will raise the 'how could anyone have seen that coming?' flag.
Off to bed, back in my box
(Last paragraph edited)
Don't believe the trainer rumour is a rumour, it is now in the open. They want, I believe the numbers are, 10 TCIs to resign and 5 TCEs to be TCIs. It will probably be done by LIFO.
Now interestingly there is the chance of a move to the 310 (Freighter?) but not to the 777 even though they are gonna need a load of trainers this year. Better to take DEC 737 trainers probably; than EK former 777 qualified now 330 trainers!? It is the 'emirates filosofeee'
I think they have discovered that in the new 'cost neutral' environment that with the current number of trainers it is more expensive than when they were paying pay per duty. Cunningly though the new contract pays less than the old, the harder you work. So if you reduce the trainer numbers and work them harder it costs less. Clearly there has been a reduction in the 330 task but over the last few years the guys have been working too much. This means that guys in ,say, standards haven't been able to do as much standardising as perhaps they would like. Added to that, a trainer doing a ground duty, but not in the sim, just like the recruiters gets no credit. What incentive is there to work? All the old good will has just been swept out of the office.
As to recruitment, all the guys that resigned when the new system came into place have been made to work on anyway. Eventually a new system will be in place which has little involvement from the customer, Flight Ops. That cannot be good! They are going to pull F/Os off the line to fly in the sim. You wannabees might just be unlucky enough to get a C- operator out of position in the left seat deciding whether or not you get a job. They will almost certainly be p*ssed off because they won't get any credit for the task and if you are a DEC will see you as stealing their career.
So lets take stock:
1. DECs, changes to command rules = p*ssed off pilot group. DECs have less experience than a lot of the F/Os, the only advantage they have is that they are Captains currently and not Captains that have the added bonus of EK operational experience. The management seem to take the view that it will be ok because our F/Os are so experienced they will be able to look after them. Oh and did I mention it is cheaper to give a 737 shorthaul Captain a full Transition course than to Upgrade an EK F/O (even if they are better qualified) because you would still need a Transition course for the F/Os replacement. In theory you save on the Upgrade course costs. So....it saves money
2. It could be argued that they change the management every couple of years when they have done too much damage to remain tenable. Next guy wins more popularity by cutting the last guys levels even further. The error chain gets longer and it...Saves money
3. Change the T&Cs of the crews but pretend it is 'cost neutral'. Don't lie to us we are not stupid, it is not cost neutral! It is amazing that I am now considered not to be on duty when I do my PPC. The PPC is the way in which the general public are ensured that they have a competent operator in the front of our aircraft but the company don't consider it as duty. Bizarre! Sadly most of the pilots assure me that they will take the same view as the company and the T&C changes will be seen as 'goodwill neutral' too. But..really...it saves money
4. Office days don't count. So how do you get someone to do all the important jobs that ensure important things don't fall through the cracks. But...it saves money.
5. Recruitment will now have little Flt Ops involvement. How does anyone else know what Flt Ops need? The effects of this should be felt just as the 380 comes on stream. But...it saves money.
To sum up:
One of the fastest expanding airlines in the world. The best way to manage change is to ensure continuity and to keep the goodwill of all the employees so that despite a paucity of resources the expansion is carried out safely.
What have the management done? ....Yep, cut costs. We have had one incident this year which was (in my view!) due to our expansion. New aircraft type, inexperienced (on type) crew and poor training and technical advice. To solve this problem we sacked a couple of managers and then announced the expansion would be even bigger. Then to ensure we improved safety we correctly trained the area that was deficient. Critically, we haven't changed the system that lead to the error! Instead we have:
Got inexperienced, on type and more importantly long haul operations, DECs. Cut the T&Cs of the crews. Destroyed the F/Os career prospects and in a stroke removed any remaining goodwill. Whilst deciding to remove any incentive to work in the office. We then reduce the number of trainers and make them work harder. Added to that we have changed the recruitment system at exactly the moment that we need to keep the standards up.
And why.....due to short term earning figures and a fuel price hike.
As a pilot I am never allowed to quote safety as being an issue. Employers always say that pilots only raise the safety card when T&Cs are mentioned. Maybe they are right, who knows.
Well, the current management will only find out the effect of their recent changes in about 2 years when different standards are coming through the system, we are introducing another 2 new aircraft types and guys haven't been carrying out the boring but essential tasks in the office. The safety net is being eroded and only then will we be able to see what the short-sighted, manager derived, error chain has led to.
I hope I will be proved wrong because if I am the managers will be able to sit back and say 'look how much we saved!'. If they can do that it will be down to the last ditch efforts of the front-line operational staff - Flightdeck, CCMs, dispatchers, engineers etc saving the day and breaking the chain. If not I guarantee all of them will raise the 'how could anyone have seen that coming?' flag.
Off to bed, back in my box
(Last paragraph edited)
Last edited by Cerberus; 31st Dec 2004 at 08:53.
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Changing T's & C's
And now to add insult to injury with the changing T's&C's, rumour has it that due to the increasing rents being charged to Emirates, our pilots are being told not only that they have to leave the accomadations they were provided, but pay for the move out of their own pockets.
This being done sometimes with only 2 weeks notice being sent from the Accomadations dept.
Either that or pay Emirates the difference in the rent.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to you too!!
This being done sometimes with only 2 weeks notice being sent from the Accomadations dept.
Either that or pay Emirates the difference in the rent.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to you too!!
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Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!!
I can confirm to all of you reading pprune the two rumours about the training staff on airbus being told to move to the 310 or give it up and the moving villas deal. On the first note I saw the letter, shown to me by my neighbour who is a tci signed and all by the big heads, and on the second note it does affect one of my friends down the road....
What is amazing, is that all this is done during a time of expansion when Emirates has not lost real money yet, imagine what is coming our way should or actualy when we get in to great trouble. Emirates has decided to recruit its future pilotbody from the South-East pilot pool, as this guys from Malaysian Srilanka etc will be eager to come so no problem filling bums in seats. EK got lucky yet again with this horrible Tsunami catastrophy as those regions have been hard hit and enough pilots from Indonisia and Malaysia will be willing to come by the droves. For them even with the new T&Cs they will be happy.
It is unfortunate that our FOs will not be able to get their chance in the left seat as early as they expected, and definetely now with lower income it is not worth staying or coming from Europe. The amazing thing is that Emirates is also treating with outer disrespect its Captains and TCIs and TCEs but they do not seem to mind as cost cutting is more important than happy employees.
Surely new things to come will be a cut in the utilities allowance even though it is in the contract, (what are you going to do leave, or take them to court, and even for those that do leave it is still a cost cutting option worth doing because the long term effects greatly outway the short term loss of the training bond. The 36000 US is not a real figure it probably is closer to 15000 and even with this, if 15 percent of the FOs leave {figure taken from the pilot body details in the CBC all European FOs} you are talking about 75 FOs at 15000 US not a big number compared to 2000 Dirhams a month at 1250 pilots soon to be 2500. You can see that even at our current levels. The training bond cost is around 1.2 million US the savings in utility allowance is 6500 US a year for each pilot so you are talking about 8.1 million US. It is not that difficult to see which is more cost beneficial...
Good Luck to us all, the only way you will see any future progress in our T&Cs is if all unite as one pilot body since numbers now days do count as you can see by this small cost cutting exercise just discussed.
Emirates is not what it used to be, but more importantly Emirates in the long term is not worth coming even for a DEC like me. I on the other hand have only two more months to go so hopefully you guys will find the strength to unite and be counted. Call in sick as much as you can and keep your chin up. I do not have the energy to stick around and fly the back side of the clock nor the desire to waste my few more years left to live on this planet to worry about what else is coming our way..
I can confirm to all of you reading pprune the two rumours about the training staff on airbus being told to move to the 310 or give it up and the moving villas deal. On the first note I saw the letter, shown to me by my neighbour who is a tci signed and all by the big heads, and on the second note it does affect one of my friends down the road....
What is amazing, is that all this is done during a time of expansion when Emirates has not lost real money yet, imagine what is coming our way should or actualy when we get in to great trouble. Emirates has decided to recruit its future pilotbody from the South-East pilot pool, as this guys from Malaysian Srilanka etc will be eager to come so no problem filling bums in seats. EK got lucky yet again with this horrible Tsunami catastrophy as those regions have been hard hit and enough pilots from Indonisia and Malaysia will be willing to come by the droves. For them even with the new T&Cs they will be happy.
It is unfortunate that our FOs will not be able to get their chance in the left seat as early as they expected, and definetely now with lower income it is not worth staying or coming from Europe. The amazing thing is that Emirates is also treating with outer disrespect its Captains and TCIs and TCEs but they do not seem to mind as cost cutting is more important than happy employees.
Surely new things to come will be a cut in the utilities allowance even though it is in the contract, (what are you going to do leave, or take them to court, and even for those that do leave it is still a cost cutting option worth doing because the long term effects greatly outway the short term loss of the training bond. The 36000 US is not a real figure it probably is closer to 15000 and even with this, if 15 percent of the FOs leave {figure taken from the pilot body details in the CBC all European FOs} you are talking about 75 FOs at 15000 US not a big number compared to 2000 Dirhams a month at 1250 pilots soon to be 2500. You can see that even at our current levels. The training bond cost is around 1.2 million US the savings in utility allowance is 6500 US a year for each pilot so you are talking about 8.1 million US. It is not that difficult to see which is more cost beneficial...
Good Luck to us all, the only way you will see any future progress in our T&Cs is if all unite as one pilot body since numbers now days do count as you can see by this small cost cutting exercise just discussed.
Emirates is not what it used to be, but more importantly Emirates in the long term is not worth coming even for a DEC like me. I on the other hand have only two more months to go so hopefully you guys will find the strength to unite and be counted. Call in sick as much as you can and keep your chin up. I do not have the energy to stick around and fly the back side of the clock nor the desire to waste my few more years left to live on this planet to worry about what else is coming our way..
Last edited by crapflying; 31st Dec 2004 at 17:18.
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Happy new year to all!
I ran into a mate of mine last night who is a AB TRE and got the real poop! 10 Tre's to be moved down to TRI's and 15 TRI's to be moved out of the training department. Nothing said about the 310. The timing is questionable, (they could have waited until after the first of the year), but it make sense. We are taking the last 340 soon and will not have any AB's delivered for 18-20 months. With 1-2 initial classes and only 2 upgrade classes for 2005 there will be nothing for the TRI"S to do anyway. Why not save money by returning the excess TRI's to another job?
The thing that makes it all smell like the loo is that we are hiring TRI's for the 777 and firing TRI's on the AB. AAR and his camel loving pals do not have a clue on how to win friends. It is a sad joke to be treated this way but it is their toy to play with as they see fit! Stay tuned, it will get more interesting?
Regards,
330 Man
I ran into a mate of mine last night who is a AB TRE and got the real poop! 10 Tre's to be moved down to TRI's and 15 TRI's to be moved out of the training department. Nothing said about the 310. The timing is questionable, (they could have waited until after the first of the year), but it make sense. We are taking the last 340 soon and will not have any AB's delivered for 18-20 months. With 1-2 initial classes and only 2 upgrade classes for 2005 there will be nothing for the TRI"S to do anyway. Why not save money by returning the excess TRI's to another job?
The thing that makes it all smell like the loo is that we are hiring TRI's for the 777 and firing TRI's on the AB. AAR and his camel loving pals do not have a clue on how to win friends. It is a sad joke to be treated this way but it is their toy to play with as they see fit! Stay tuned, it will get more interesting?
Regards,
330 Man
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"Emirates has decided to recruit its future pilotbody from the South-East pilot pool, as this guys from Malaysian Srilanka etc will be eager to come so no problem filling bums in seats. EK got lucky yet again with this horrible Tsunami catastrophy as those regions have been hard hit and enough pilots from Indonisia and Malaysia will be willing to come by the droves. For them even with the new T&Cs they will be happy."
If the terms and conditions now seem good for guys (some with heavy metal EK type) from SE Asia, it must have been a windfall if they had a chance to come years ago.
Certainly don't need a tsunami to encourage them to come.
Don't get me wrong - they don't wish for any erosion in T & C's - they already have that back home.
Selamat Menyambut Tahun Baru
If the terms and conditions now seem good for guys (some with heavy metal EK type) from SE Asia, it must have been a windfall if they had a chance to come years ago.
Certainly don't need a tsunami to encourage them to come.
Don't get me wrong - they don't wish for any erosion in T & C's - they already have that back home.
Selamat Menyambut Tahun Baru
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Lets see...
The Tsunami will make a lot of people from the south-east pool to come to EK. I cud not remember why I chose to come to the desert a few years ago, the weather ? Naaahh..last week's weather was almost as wet as the ole blighty and in some parts of UAE, we have snow!!!!
I for one, will not hesitate to come here if the conditions that I was getting before is worst. What about the rest of us who don't come from that region ? Why did we ended up here in the first place ?
Cerbie,
To say the DEC have less experience than a lot of EK F/O is somewhat errorneous. Those F/os who have the criteria for the DEC have been made Captains, I can name a few if you want ( You knew them as well...). The Ts n Cs are not getting better, thats for sure. Its everybody to its own. Some have made the move ( at least 2 this month). But the solution is...........?????
The Tsunami will make a lot of people from the south-east pool to come to EK. I cud not remember why I chose to come to the desert a few years ago, the weather ? Naaahh..last week's weather was almost as wet as the ole blighty and in some parts of UAE, we have snow!!!!
I for one, will not hesitate to come here if the conditions that I was getting before is worst. What about the rest of us who don't come from that region ? Why did we ended up here in the first place ?
Cerbie,
To say the DEC have less experience than a lot of EK F/O is somewhat errorneous. Those F/os who have the criteria for the DEC have been made Captains, I can name a few if you want ( You knew them as well...). The Ts n Cs are not getting better, thats for sure. Its everybody to its own. Some have made the move ( at least 2 this month). But the solution is...........?????
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yawn YAWN yawn
What crap are you EK drivers posting here. Isn't Emirates a commercial company? Is it not prudent for any management to run the affairs and make or review policies in order to ensure continued commercial viability? So if your cool retreat is under review then why do you say that the sky is falling? What is wrong with rationalization of your T&Cs? Can't you for once see beyond your selfish noses and realize where you would be today if Emirates had not given you a job? If things are as bad as you would have the outside world believe then please do yourself a favour and quit EK. If any of you have authentic statistics of pilots who have quit EK recently due to the alleged deterioration of T&Cs then please post the figure here.
CERBERUS:
You take the PPC in order to renew your licence so that you may be RETAINED in the job you have. You are lucky that the company pays for the SIM etc. Why should the trainee be paid any credit for renewing his licence that is required by the trainee to stay in employment? Why should any company consider PPC as duty? You should be grateful that the company bears the expense for your licence renewal that assures you get a salary for the next 6 months. I'd say you ought to take STOCK of yourself.
330 MAN:
You are right. Adel Al Redha and his team do not have a clue how to win friends.
You are daft. Adel Al Redha and his team is in the business of keeping Emirates profitable and efficient, and certainly not in the business of as you say winning friends. And where does winning friends find place, any place in commercial enterprises? Adel Al Redha is doing full justice to the responsibilities that have been entrusted to him, and if in keeping the Company's interest paramount some spoilt brats like yourself have now to fall in line, then so be it. 
What crap are you EK drivers posting here. Isn't Emirates a commercial company? Is it not prudent for any management to run the affairs and make or review policies in order to ensure continued commercial viability? So if your cool retreat is under review then why do you say that the sky is falling? What is wrong with rationalization of your T&Cs? Can't you for once see beyond your selfish noses and realize where you would be today if Emirates had not given you a job? If things are as bad as you would have the outside world believe then please do yourself a favour and quit EK. If any of you have authentic statistics of pilots who have quit EK recently due to the alleged deterioration of T&Cs then please post the figure here.
CERBERUS:
You take the PPC in order to renew your licence so that you may be RETAINED in the job you have. You are lucky that the company pays for the SIM etc. Why should the trainee be paid any credit for renewing his licence that is required by the trainee to stay in employment? Why should any company consider PPC as duty? You should be grateful that the company bears the expense for your licence renewal that assures you get a salary for the next 6 months. I'd say you ought to take STOCK of yourself.
330 MAN:
You are right. Adel Al Redha and his team do not have a clue how to win friends.
You are daft. Adel Al Redha and his team is in the business of keeping Emirates profitable and efficient, and certainly not in the business of as you say winning friends. And where does winning friends find place, any place in commercial enterprises? Adel Al Redha is doing full justice to the responsibilities that have been entrusted to him, and if in keeping the Company's interest paramount some spoilt brats like yourself have now to fall in line, then so be it.
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Reading the above "you should be be grateful to the company for employing you" bs, by albatross, my guess is things are only going to get worse, as fat managers (who do nothing to improve the real productivity) screw the real revenue-producing workers, to support their bloated conditions.
Quite frankly, they have run out of ideas - or perhaps never had an original one in the first instance - and must now resort to pilfering from the true backbone of the company.
It's becoming endemic, worldwide in airlines.
But we are in agreement on one point, "do yourself a favour and quit EK."
Get away from the stench of the camel sh!t, the 49 degree summers, and the men who think holding hands with other men is the norm.
Quite frankly, they have run out of ideas - or perhaps never had an original one in the first instance - and must now resort to pilfering from the true backbone of the company.
It's becoming endemic, worldwide in airlines.
But we are in agreement on one point, "do yourself a favour and quit EK."
Get away from the stench of the camel sh!t, the 49 degree summers, and the men who think holding hands with other men is the norm.
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Albatross2004
You definetely have the wrong view on the way things work. Most of us who came to Emirates had other jobs and some of us had realy good jobs. Emirates has given us nothing, we have given them a vast experience and expertise and the opportunity for them to fly their passengers around the world. In return they have signed a contract which they now do not want to honour. If nothing else they have missrepresented the company and its intentions. Even in the routhless competitive business world you are talking about, there are rules and regulations, making false representations is illegal and not only unethical.
The problem is that people like you are running most of the companies around the world, and it is for this reason that most are failing or providing a **** standard. The exceptional few companies that actualy take care of their emplyoees and think of them first never ever faulter or go through bad times.
Think of Southwest in the Unites States, what about them? Don't you think that they have to buy expensive fuel, or face the problems of a recession, or the post 911 ways of the market? Yet they honour their employees and realize that it is not only numbers that make profits, but more importantly the people who deliver the product to the customer.
I have no problem with bad airlines and bad managers, I would never join them in the first place, and even if I did it would be myself that I would have to blaim. The idea that Emirates lured us down here and so many others from great jobs on false pretences is what gets me.... If you have no choice then great you should not complain, but excellence and innovation does not come from people who are merely happy to go from pay-check to paycheck. Emirates never once claimed that they want to be average, nor did they recruit until now just average guys, (except maybe in management). Great minds will always be uneasy when greatness is not achieved or seeked...
In the end they will lose, as it has already started. They might be taking the piss out of the pilots and cabin crew today, but they are only shouting themselves in the foot. The sick rate is sky high at the moment and it will remain so since good will on our side is not there any more, the flexibility they want is not there any more, and they are failing to attract the right people for the job thus in the end the brand is suffering. In the cabin the service has droped (do not take my word for it, just look at the ratings from no 1 down to no17) and still dropping, and the competition is only getting better.
Emirates management is doing the same mistakes done by all the other companies who were in their shoes at different times. They are destroying the very base that they need to present the consummers with. A product as good as it might be depends on people delivering it. Any company around the world that has its people first knows this and continues to succeed. If you think that by creating an atmosphere of mediocracy is the way forward then you are trully not only an average person with no abilities or capabilities but definetely with no vision for the future.
Albatross I believe that you my boy are totaly inept, with no abilities and no understanding of the dynamics of a company. You my boy lack the skills required to manage a trully global company with great people and great minds.
You should probably thank your employer who has you onboard and has not not realized your deficiencies yet. You probably are the one that knows you are lucky to have a job and kisses up to his boss for what money you receive from the company. In the end though you definetely are living a fearfull life always afraid of tomorrow and what it holds for you. You my boy have no real future, at best you are a used car sales man with no dreams and empty promisses...
Not me, and not us down here...
You definetely have the wrong view on the way things work. Most of us who came to Emirates had other jobs and some of us had realy good jobs. Emirates has given us nothing, we have given them a vast experience and expertise and the opportunity for them to fly their passengers around the world. In return they have signed a contract which they now do not want to honour. If nothing else they have missrepresented the company and its intentions. Even in the routhless competitive business world you are talking about, there are rules and regulations, making false representations is illegal and not only unethical.
The problem is that people like you are running most of the companies around the world, and it is for this reason that most are failing or providing a **** standard. The exceptional few companies that actualy take care of their emplyoees and think of them first never ever faulter or go through bad times.
Think of Southwest in the Unites States, what about them? Don't you think that they have to buy expensive fuel, or face the problems of a recession, or the post 911 ways of the market? Yet they honour their employees and realize that it is not only numbers that make profits, but more importantly the people who deliver the product to the customer.
I have no problem with bad airlines and bad managers, I would never join them in the first place, and even if I did it would be myself that I would have to blaim. The idea that Emirates lured us down here and so many others from great jobs on false pretences is what gets me.... If you have no choice then great you should not complain, but excellence and innovation does not come from people who are merely happy to go from pay-check to paycheck. Emirates never once claimed that they want to be average, nor did they recruit until now just average guys, (except maybe in management). Great minds will always be uneasy when greatness is not achieved or seeked...
In the end they will lose, as it has already started. They might be taking the piss out of the pilots and cabin crew today, but they are only shouting themselves in the foot. The sick rate is sky high at the moment and it will remain so since good will on our side is not there any more, the flexibility they want is not there any more, and they are failing to attract the right people for the job thus in the end the brand is suffering. In the cabin the service has droped (do not take my word for it, just look at the ratings from no 1 down to no17) and still dropping, and the competition is only getting better.
Emirates management is doing the same mistakes done by all the other companies who were in their shoes at different times. They are destroying the very base that they need to present the consummers with. A product as good as it might be depends on people delivering it. Any company around the world that has its people first knows this and continues to succeed. If you think that by creating an atmosphere of mediocracy is the way forward then you are trully not only an average person with no abilities or capabilities but definetely with no vision for the future.
Albatross I believe that you my boy are totaly inept, with no abilities and no understanding of the dynamics of a company. You my boy lack the skills required to manage a trully global company with great people and great minds.
You should probably thank your employer who has you onboard and has not not realized your deficiencies yet. You probably are the one that knows you are lucky to have a job and kisses up to his boss for what money you receive from the company. In the end though you definetely are living a fearfull life always afraid of tomorrow and what it holds for you. You my boy have no real future, at best you are a used car sales man with no dreams and empty promisses...
Not me, and not us down here...
Last edited by crapflying; 2nd Jan 2005 at 05:01.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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scary
well i hope it is not that bad in ek.
i m about to quit my job n move to the place of sand.
can albatross please describe to me what is actually happening.
beside all the negative ness , any good inputs about working for ek ang life in dubai ?
thanks , sorry if offended anyone.
i m about to quit my job n move to the place of sand.
can albatross please describe to me what is actually happening.
beside all the negative ness , any good inputs about working for ek ang life in dubai ?
thanks , sorry if offended anyone.
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Hapimus. Just run a search on this forum and you will find plenty of opinions on both sides.
I don't envy your situation, but if it was me, I wouldn't come here now, as a DEC or F/O.
Good luck.
I don't envy your situation, but if it was me, I wouldn't come here now, as a DEC or F/O.
Good luck.
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Albatross 2004
Your argument is so one sided, we can only surmise what you do for a living. If EK hadn't employed me, I would actually now be far better off staying put. As I have said on another thread, I made the call on the T & C's I was presented with at the time. They have changed and eroded due to a hostile management. So now, I am worse off than if I was still in my previous company, which is still in excellent financial shape.
Regarding your comments on the PPC renewal, isn't it just as important for the company to have us with current ratings so that we can fly the aircraft in these times of expansion? So, we don't get paid if we don't do a renewal, but I think there would similarly be nobody to fly aircraft if we didn't do renewals!
Take a little bit of the emotion out of your comments, and argue logically. You are acting in the same way AAR and his gang act toward the pilots of EK, and that certainly does not make people want to do a job well to help the company.
Your argument is so one sided, we can only surmise what you do for a living. If EK hadn't employed me, I would actually now be far better off staying put. As I have said on another thread, I made the call on the T & C's I was presented with at the time. They have changed and eroded due to a hostile management. So now, I am worse off than if I was still in my previous company, which is still in excellent financial shape.
Regarding your comments on the PPC renewal, isn't it just as important for the company to have us with current ratings so that we can fly the aircraft in these times of expansion? So, we don't get paid if we don't do a renewal, but I think there would similarly be nobody to fly aircraft if we didn't do renewals!
Take a little bit of the emotion out of your comments, and argue logically. You are acting in the same way AAR and his gang act toward the pilots of EK, and that certainly does not make people want to do a job well to help the company.
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Please don't waste any time on Albatosser; he's been kicked off this site by the moderator many a time and only gets worse if you humour him or take the bait of his drivel.
Next to join in will be WK leading the charge with his 'if you don't like it leave' brigade...
Well said CF. It is a sad mess at EK and doesn't look as if it is going to get any better...worst of all it is so unnecessary.
Next to join in will be WK leading the charge with his 'if you don't like it leave' brigade...
Well said CF. It is a sad mess at EK and doesn't look as if it is going to get any better...worst of all it is so unnecessary.
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Shake
Spot on re WK. I do however detect that even he is finding his rose tinted spectacles getting clearer as his command disappears over the horizon,then again perhaps not. I bet he even thinks his cat and dog just love living in Dubai! Then again probably better than a council estate in Crawley.
Spot on re WK. I do however detect that even he is finding his rose tinted spectacles getting clearer as his command disappears over the horizon,then again perhaps not. I bet he even thinks his cat and dog just love living in Dubai! Then again probably better than a council estate in Crawley.